Paul's form thread

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

It looks like you could go a lot lower in those Front Squats so in what way do they feel bottomed out? Maybe play around with your stance to see if that affords you a little extra depth.

Chris is right though they don't judge depth...but it's always good to have an extra inch or two to play with (ooh err)...

[Paul]

It looks like you could go a lot lower in those Front Squats so in what way do they feel bottomed out? Maybe play around with your stance to see if that affords you a little extra depth.

Chris is right though they don't judge depth...but it's always good to have an extra inch or two to play with (ooh err)...

I know depth isn't judged, but catching a heavy clean in that position seems awkward, and the extra few inches would probably add some weight to the bar.
My power clean is weak and I only started seriously front squatting this year, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. I just want a beautiful ATG front squat like all the cool kids!

On depth:

It just feels like it won't go any lower. That's where it wants to bounce back up if I stay tight.

Partly in the hips... they feel tight at the bottom.
Partly my hams starting to touch the calves. I'm sure I can squish then together more though. My cut might help there.
My ankles are maxed out too.

If I let my back loosen I can get deeper, so there's ROM to be found somewhere I'm sure.

I'll play around some more, but it seems like narrower stances make my ankles a limiting factor and wider stances make my hips a limiting factor. My feet really want to be turned out at the bottom too. Very "frog like".

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

My suggestion would be to sit in the bottom position for 30 seconds or so EMOM for however many reps it takes to feel like you are really getting down...weight doesn't have to be heavy (I imagine 70kg would be fine for you) but if you did this a few times a week for a few weeks I bet it'd make a big difference...sit at the bottom and try to make it look beautiful...

You may have tried something like this already of course.

[Paul]

My suggestion would be to sit in the bottom position for 30 seconds or so EMOM for however many reps it takes to feel like you are really getting down...weight doesn't have to be heavy (I imagine 70kg would be fine for you) but if you did this a few times a week for a few weeks I bet it'd make a big difference...sit at the bottom and try to make it look beautiful...

You may have tried something like this already of course.

I have half ass sat at the bottom a few times. Never actually consistently practiced it.
I could actually do a 10 minute EMOM "sit" every day, as I workout at home. I will probably wait until after my meet to start that though... seems like I messed with enough stuff already. I'll warm up that way for sure now, though! Thank you!

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

Even just sitting at the bottom of a squat unweighted has really helped me improve my own flexibility (and more than that - my willingness to move properly) over the past few months...getting limber enough to lift and move properly (after 20 years of Rum, Injury and the Lash) has taken a bit more effort at 39 - 40 than at 17 - 18...

[chrisd]

I was assuming the OP does daily yoga, as everyone should. More seriously, a bit of stretching might be called for. Agile , limber 11, something like that. If you can go side to side in a cossack squat, barefoot, without rising, that would help.

[Paul]

I was assuming the OP does daily yoga, as everyone should. More seriously, a bit of stretching might be called for. Agile , limber 11, something like that. If you can go side to side in a cossack squat, barefoot, without rising, that would help.

I actually did a bit of yoga for a little while. Still have a nice mat..

I've avoided stretching, foam rolling, etc, since the BBM crew started opposing it. I was slacking on it by then anyway, as it didn't seem to help my issues.

When I tried skipping all that stuff and focusing on form and programming, all my issues went away. My hip wasn't hurting because it was "tight" ...it was hurting from stupid high intensity and high volume being placed on the area. Stretching just made it feel better enough to keep hurting it for longer.
It felt good to let go of worrying about all that stuff and just lift.

As a method to get into a specific position though, I'm looking at trying it again. It seems a lot of the weight lifters are really adamant that it's necessary. I understand where BBM is coming from, but I'm not sure it applies if the primary goal is mobility, not strength.

[chrisd]

I was assuming the OP does daily yoga, as everyone should. More seriously, a bit of stretching might be called for. Agile , limber 11, something like that. If you can go side to side in a cossack squat, barefoot, without rising, that would help.

I actually did a bit of yoga for a little while. Still have a nice mat..

I've avoided stretching, foam rolling, etc, since the BBM crew started opposing it. I was slacking on it by then anyway, as it didn't seem to help my issues.

When I tried skipping all that stuff and focusing on form and programming, all my issues went away. My hip wasn't hurting because it was "tight" ...it was hurting from stupid high intensity and high volume being placed on the area. Stretching just made it feel better enough to keep hurting it for longer.
It felt good to let go of worrying about all that stuff and just lift.

As a method to get into a specific position though, I'm looking at trying it again. It seems a lot of the weight lifters are really adamant that it's necessary. I understand where BBM is coming from, but I'm not sure it applies if the primary goal is mobility, not strength.

Powerlifters don't stretch. If your goal is to make legal depth and any more is a waste, they have a point. Likewise, tight hamstrings are going to help the deadlift.

Weightlifters are the people who do pancake good mornings for a warm up.

I know Jordan is anti stretching, but his arguments seem to be circular.

"Stretching is not necessary to achieve proper mobility for powerlifts" possibly true
"Powerlifts are all that is needed to develop strength" possibly true
"Therefore nobody needs to increase their mobility" non sequitur.

I think Jordan just doesn't like stretching.

In your case, I'd look at your hip angle as being the limiting factor. If you can decrease your hip angle, your hips will be nearer your ankles and you won't need so much dorsiflexion at the ankle. Obviously the mechanical bits of your joints shouldn't be rammed to the limit, but you may fine that with practicing bottom position holds and feeling where everything is and how you can move, you can get deeper.

My personal recommendation is for thirty second holds for a total of five minutes per session six times a week. Simply because I saw it on the internet and it seems to work. The old SS warm up of unweighted squat and push the knees out is fairly handy, just hold yourself more upright.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

I actually like BBM but I wouldn't take their word as Gospel...Feigenbaum thought he'd kick ass at Cross-Fit and that didn't quite happen, so many be stuff if a little more NUANCED and all that...

[ChasingCurls69]

I think the argument is more that stretching is specific to the stretch and so a bunch of weird non-specifc stretches aren't going to improve your mobility and make a difference in your squat/bench/deadlift/press more than doing those or something closely related. Stretches for weightlifting should probably be pretty specific to the movements used in weightlifting. So when I have trouble holding a front rack before warming up, I'll hold it for 30-60 seconds and play around with pushing one elbow higher than the other, but won't make a routine out of stretches for everything involved in the position.

[chrisd]

I actually like BBM but I wouldn't take their word as Gospel...Feigenbaum thought he'd kick ass at Cross-Fit and that didn't quite happen, so many be stuff if a little more NUANCED and all that...

To be fair, I seem to recall that the competition he was in had him doing double unders and walking on hands. I doubt Jordan was the only strong athlete to get eliminated in that round.

[chrisd]

I think the argument is more that stretching is specific to the stretch and so a bunch of weird non-specifc stretches aren't going to improve your mobility and make a difference in your squat/bench/deadlift/press more than doing those or something closely related. Stretches for weightlifting should probably be pretty specific to the movements used in weightlifting. So when I have trouble holding a front rack before warming up, I'll hold it for 30-60 seconds and play around with pushing one elbow higher than the other, but won't make a routine out of stretches for everything involved in the position.

Sounds reasonable.

There was some discussion (where, when, who ??? I don't recall) about warm up routines for weightlifters. The experienced lifter/coach/whoever it was said that it was not necessary to follow a warm up routine laid down by a coach. Just do the movements that you need to do to get the results you want.

[Paul]

Did some 30 second holds and tempo stuff to warm up for my front squats yesterday... I think they're going to help a lot!
As I wiggled around at the bottom I could feel myself sinking slightly deeper after a few sets. My knee feels pretty good too, but that could be the tempo stuff.
A side effect will be a really solid rack position and upper back tightness.
It sucks... in all the right places.

As for BBM, I have found them to be a little too focused on "what the studies say" without applying the nuance of "why".
Sometimes things don't work on average because of adherence, but they do work for the few individuals that adhere to them. By this logic, we shouldn't prescribe macros or put people on cutting diets because studies show a huge failure and relapse rate.