Transpeople in athletics

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

Hubbard is probably barely top 20 in the World if every top Female SHW were allowed to compete in Tokyo...shit, women 50kg plus lighter have out lifted her in competition.

[JonA]

As to media coverage: I don't really think this issue is overly newsworthy at this point beyond culture war proponents.

Media is kinda fickle. I would think they'd be busy talking about a 21yr old swedish pole vaulter that's dominating the world, but they don't.

If I had to grade "fairness" in advantage for transgender athletes, I'd guess it would follow a normal curve. I'd put U12 soccer with all genders competing on the same team on the right side as 95%+ fair and athletes like Hubbard on left as about 5% fair. I'd put everything else in between with a solid "sorta kinda, mebbe fair, I don't know <throws the hands up in the air>".

The USWNT can't beat a Men's U15 club team. The William's sister, women's most dominant players of all-time, got toasted by a 200+ ranked man. This debate is just silly. It isn't fair. Which is why women's sports is separate to begin with.

Yeah, I'd put those things over on the left of my normal curve of "fairness". Some things are obviously unfair, but others not necessarily so. There are plenty of Olympic sports that probably don't need any sort of gender qualification: [artistic|rhymthmic] [swimming|gymnastics], diving, sailing, shooting, archery, bmx, cayak|canoe slalom, badminton, table tennis, surfing, trampoline, equestrian, etc.

[aurelius]

Hubbard is probably barely top 20 in the World if every top Female SHW were allowed to compete in Tokyo...shit, women 50kg plus lighter have out lifted her in competition.

Hubbard's lifts do not even qualify for the men's competition at regional levels. After transitioning Hubbard instantly competes in the top 0.0001% of all women in strength to be able to qualify for the Olympics. And just because Hubbard cannot beat the top 0.00001% of women means Hubbard does not have an unfair advantage compared to the general population of women? This seems to be what you are implying. I don't understand the logic of this argument.

*made up percentages

[zappey1]

Hubbard is probably barely top 20 in the World if every top Female SHW were allowed to compete in Tokyo...shit, women 50kg plus lighter have out lifted her in competition.

I get that but this sets a precedence. What about the next MTF lifter? What about 10 years from now? If Hubbard competes it will open the flood gates to any male that has enough desire to win a gold medal at all cost. Including transitioning to compete in female divisions.

[hector]

Hubbard is probably barely top 20 in the World if every top Female SHW were allowed to compete in Tokyo...shit, women 50kg plus lighter have out lifted her in competition.

I get that but this sets a precedence. What about the next MTF lifter? What about 10 years from now? If Hubbard competes it will open the flood gates to any male that has enough desire to win a gold medal at all cost. Including transitioning to compete in female divisions.

"What about 10 years from now?"

Well, extapolating, 10 years from now it will be the most trans-accepting countries dominating international competition.

Kidding. But only sort of.
Idk.

[mbasic]

Not a lot of strength-in-depth in Women's SHW.

speaking of strength.


Another gripe I have, Hubbard's technique is ...kinda awful.
But yet, she excels in the women's division because of a inherit amount of dude-strength.
That^ would be about a 3rd tier example/sign of her unfair advantage.

2nd would be her age. 43 ish, competing in the Olympics? in WL?
Remember, she's already displaced other female in her qualifying region already.

1st would be all of the man-like athlete characteristics endowed with being a man for 35 years.

[Oldandfat]

If we are all equal why,not,just Emilianate men’s sports and female sports, and trans sports?

Just have sports. Everyone gets a tryout. Best human makes the,team. Fair, and equal right?

[zappey1]

If we are all equal why,not,just Emilianate men’s sports and female sports, and trans sports?

Just have sports. Everyone gets a tryout. Best human makes the,team. Fair, and equal right?

I hope your kidding but in the US we have:
Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 is a federal law prohibiting gender discrimination in athletic programs at institutions that receive federal funds

For other countries IDK what they have

[mbasic]

If we are all equal why,not,just Emilianate men’s sports and female sports, and trans sports?

Just have sports. Everyone gets a tryout. Best human makes the,team. Fair, and equal right?

... it was funny to me in one of those feel-sorry-for-CeCe-Telfer articles, they had mentioned that she grew up as a youth in Jamaica.
And the author brought up that over there in school track (I assume grade school/middle school) they do not separate the boys and girls into different divisions. I think this was an attempt to show some kind uber woke concept as in "they don't see people as different genders" or whatever ..... but then there's the whole you-stepped-on-your-own-dick thing becuase: How's That Going with girls racing against boys.

Furthermore, I'm sure its (seperate the racing sexes) just about: why bother; no money; who cares ...

yeah, I could see it been fairly even up until about 7 to 10 years old, but I'm sure the boys edge out the girls by a bit.
Somewhere around ages 10-13 a vast separation in performance can be seen....with almost no girls placing higher up anywhere close to the boys.

[mbasic]

Hubbard is probably barely top 20 in the World if every top Female SHW were allowed to compete in Tokyo...shit, women 50kg plus lighter have out lifted her in competition.

You keep making that argument and it cuts both ways.

The pool of Olympic contestants is surely contaminated due to the Committee wanting to include as many different Nations as possible.

As Aurelius points out, if we compare Hubbard's lifting, when she was a he, as a 20 y.o.male against the pool of all similar lifters (20 y.o., male, wt. class he was then) he was a nobody (NZ is a nobody nation wrt WL'ing)

If we do the same thing with her current lifts, against the pool of all females around 40-45 y.o., females, SHW, etc .... she's definately going to be high up in the rankings.

Hubbard would place in the top 5 or so at Chinese Nationals ... at 43 years of age with shit techinque....and a 5-10 year hiatus from the sport IIRC.

https://www.allthingsgym.com/2020-chine ... pionships/

Li Wenwen 142/187*/329 (C&J 1kg above World Record)
Fan Yuxin 125/157/282
Luo Jie 123/152/275

(Hubbard is typically anywhere from 120/140 to 135/154)

That's is country with 1.7 billion people, almost forcing (large) women to compete at the highest levels, with the best training environment.
....weightlifting seems very import to China/CCP.

....IOW: your fucking nuts-o

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

I've got very little data to go on as to how good Hubbard was likely to have been had she continued her career as a Male based off results from 20 years ago... let's say she can hit 290, that's 5/6 off Kazankina's all-time World Record - Talkhadze's 484 * 5/6 comes back to about 400 or so for a Male, which doesn't seem impossible for Hubbard at the peak of her career, had she continued as a Male.

As for being 43...meh. There aren't too many fairly talented people with access to top quality medical help who took a 15 year break in their WL Career to compare her to...if Schemansky can Medal in the OG at 40 after such a long career that suggests longevity is possible.

[JonA]

There aren't too many fairly talented people with access to top quality medical help who took a 15 year break in their WL Career to compare her to

Hmmm. Yes. You are correct. Not many people have taken a 15 year break in their WL career and resumed to international success. She is almost unique in that regard, isn't she?

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

Hmmm. Yes. You are correct. Not many people have taken a 15 year break in their WL career and resumed to international success. She is almost unique in that regard, isn't she?

No other names come to mind, that's true.

[mbasic]

There aren't too many fairly talented people with access to top quality medical help who took a 15 year break in their WL Career to compare her to

Hmmm. Yes. You are correct. Not many people have taken a 15 year break in their WL career and resumed to international success. She is almost unique in that regard, isn't she?

That's some SRA cycle.

[Oldandfat]

If we are all equal why,not,just Emilianate men’s sports and female sports, and trans sports?

Just have sports. Everyone gets a tryout. Best human makes the,team. Fair, and equal right?

I hope your kidding but in the US we have:
Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 is a federal law prohibiting gender discrimination in athletic programs at institutions that receive federal funds

For other countries IDK what they have

Not kidding at all. We are all equal. Right? How would “just sports” with no gender divisions be discrimination?

Look at it like a job. There’s no female departments and men departments. You just do your job. Sports is the same thing. It’s a job

[hector]

If we are all equal why,not,just Emilianate men’s sports and female sports, and trans sports?

Just have sports. Everyone gets a tryout. Best human makes the,team. Fair, and equal right?

I hope your kidding but in the US we have:
Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 is a federal law prohibiting gender discrimination in athletic programs at institutions that receive federal funds

For other countries IDK what they have

Not kidding at all. We are all equal. Right? How would “just sports” with no gender divisions be discrimination?

Look at it like a job. There’s no female departments and men departments. You just do your job. Sports is the same thing. It’s a job

By "discrimination" we mean we're disallowing certain classes of people from participating, right?

If we only have a single division in WL or Football then we're de facto discriminating against those who aren't biologically predisposed to getting strong. Which will be almost all women.

And that's why this discussion is intractable if the goal is zero discrimination. We're always discriminating, whether it is explicit (women's division) or unspoken ("open" which ends up selecting for men, like the all male NBA or NFL that in theory could allow women, but, in practice, have none.)

We need to be open about how, and why, we're discriminating.

[Hanley]

Not kidding at all. We are all equal. Right?

What? No. I'm not even equal to my former self in athletic ability, power production, speed, etc.

I get to be in a protected class now.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

I get that but this sets a precedence. What about the next MTF lifter? What about 10 years from now? If Hubbard competes it will open the flood gates to any male that has enough desire to win a gold medal at all cost. Including transitioning to compete in female divisions.

Yeah, but then the IOC will just change the rules to require more strenuous guidelines to allow MTF athletes to compete...basically the only way MTF athletes will get to win will be by accident.

[zappey1]

Well it seems like most people (at least according to this poll) think it is a bad idea:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/majority-no- ... 00307.html

In a new Rasmussen Reports survey Friday, 56% of likely voters said it is unfair to make women compete against transgender athletes.

The poll found that just 25% think it’s fair and 19% are not sure.

I would assume the other 19% are also against it but don't want to get called "transphobic"

[Oldandfat]

If we are all equal why,not,just Emilianate men’s sports and female sports, and trans sports?

Just have sports. Everyone gets a tryout. Best human makes the,team. Fair, and equal right?

I hope your kidding but in the US we have:
Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 is a federal law prohibiting gender discrimination in athletic programs at institutions that receive federal funds

For other countries IDK what they have

Not kidding at all. We are all equal. Right? How would “just sports” with no gender divisions be discrimination?

Look at it like a job. There’s no female departments and men departments. You just do your job. Sports is the same thing. It’s a job

By "discrimination" we mean we're disallowing certain classes of people from participating, right?

If we only have a single division in WL or Football then we're de facto discriminating against those who aren't biologically predisposed to getting strong. Which will be almost all women.

And that's why this discussion is intractable if the goal is zero discrimination. We're always discriminating, whether it is explicit (women's division) or unspoken ("open" which ends up selecting for men, like the all male NBA or NFL that in theory could allow women, but, in practice, have none.)

We need to be open about how, and why, we're discriminating.

But,my whole point is we’re not discriminating. Everyone gets a fair chance to try out. Meritocracy. Best man/woman/trans person for the job.

I’m kinda tongue in cheek here trying to pint out the craziness.