Engage Bear Mode, or... Who is on a bulk?

[JohnHelton]

Another shorthand approach is to just bulk and cut within a waistsize range. Say 2" or 5cm. If you want to work your waist down over time, then bulk up 2" and cut 3".

[JeanLannes]

So you're alternating between very slow bulks and very aggressive cuts?

More or less. I did what you planned on doing. I was 76kg at 183cm, somewhat lean but skinny fat and under-muscled with big legs and stick arms. I totally bought into the "eat big to get big" mantra. It worked OK for my LP numbers (well, Squat and DL), but was terrible for my body-composition. Then I kept slowly gaining from 90 to 102. I didn't get much stronger and gained very little muscle.

I got to listen to more bodybuilding focused podcasts (Revive Stronger and The Improvement Season with Steve Hall, 3DMJ, Iron Culture, Renaissance Periodisation etc.) And they typically all work with the same parameters.

Gaining 1kg/month at 80-85Kg is not a slow bulk. Muscle grows very slowly, just eating more and more won't speed up the process beyond a certain point, which seems to be around that 1%BW/month gaining rate. After that it just seems you store more fat.

On the flipside, losing 1% of BW/week is a aggressive cut, but not overly so. The first two weeks are easy and I tend to have lost 3-4% of BW before the 3rd week begins.

Its easy to make a plan with those numbers. I'm currently 84kg, I'd like to get to 80kg, and use 78kg as my cut-off weight for a cut and 83kg for a Bulk.
I did a slow cut for the last 7 weeks (from 92kg) but it starts to get rough and I'll stop next sunday. I'll start another 8-10 week gaining phase to have some fun in the gym again. By then I'll be ready to cut another 5-6kg and get to 80kg.

Then I'll alternate 3-4 month gaining phases with 3-4 week mini cuts where I just lose 1-2kg more than I've gained. That's your classic recomp, but with Actual Bulks instead of slowly getting nowhere.

At that point, I'll be OK with my bodycomposition AFTER a bulk and I am just 3-4 weeks away from being as lean as I want to.

Bulking would then mean, 4 months of gaining (+4kg) and 2 weeks of cutting (-3kg). That means I can Gain 10kg per year, but only be 2kg heavier at the end of the year.

So i'd be trying to lose nearly a kg a week with cutting and gaining only 250g when bulking? How would I figure out the macros for those rate of gains/losses?

[mettkeks]

So i'd be trying to lose nearly a kg a week with cutting and gaining only 250g when bulking? How would I figure out the macros for those rate of gains/losses?

I don't know. I don't do macros. Only calories and protein. My maintenance is between 3500-3800. A bulk is 4000-4200 kcal and I get roughly 1-1.5kg a month. I lose about 1-1.5kg/week on roughly 2200-2400 kcal. I get at least 2g/kg of protein and at least 25g of fat and then eat whatever carb/fat/veggie mix that gets me to my calories, with a preference of carbs over fat.

It's not that complicated.

Another shorthand approach is to just bulk and cut within a waistsize range. Say 2" or 5cm. If you want to work your waist down over time, then bulk up 2" and cut 3".

I'd do it if it wasn't so depressing...

[FredM]

So i'd be trying to lose nearly a kg a week with cutting and gaining only 250g when bulking? How would I figure out the macros for those rate of gains/losses?

There's plenty of macro calculators online for this. Ballpark (as highlighted in metkeks examples) is 1000 calories under maintenance and 500 calories over maintenance. The protein targets targets matter more on the cuts. I don't count calories or macros anymore really (I know what a meal needs to look like, and how many meals I need for each phase), but as an example mine probably look something like:

3300 calories, 160g protein, 80g fat, the rest carbs

2000 calories, 180g protein, 45g fat, the rest carbs

I weigh myself every morning and for 3 weeks I wasn't gaining enough so I added about 100 calories to every meal. Then for 2 weeks I gained .2 lbs/day almost every day which is slightly faster than I wanted so I'm adjusting by cutting those extra calories out of breakfast and dinner.

I'm doing the same thing metkeks and John suggested. I have a moving average waist (it moves down) and I cut aggressively (1.5-2 lbs/wk) for 6 or so weeks and bulk slowly (.5-1 lb/wk) for 12 weeks. I hit the same weight a lot up and down and every time I do my waist is down a little more at that weight. Currently I'm 183 lbs and 32.75" waist in the middle of a bulk. The last time I was here I had a 33.25" waist and the time before that it was 34".

[Wilhelm]

Wish i'd thought of this 15 weeks ago, but i'm going for a very low cal day on my one full day off now.
Getting 3,600+ calories a day is a grind, but i'm enjoying the break today.
Sunday is volume squats only, and Tuesday is bench and accessories, so leaving off Sunday with plenty of calories, and picking up again Tuesday mornings should be fine.

Basically two cups of coffee, 4Tbsp heavy cream in each, 3 shakes with 60 grams concentrate (80%) and 1 Tbsp MCT oil in each of those. 1Tbsp ground flax in each. (Alittle glycine too. No calories, but makes them a little sweet as a side effect.)
If i also do 4 ounces raw brocolli, the total is 1,573 calories.

I'll just do that every Monday and see how it goes.
The mental break is immediately apparent, feels like such a treat after jamming in the surplus for so long without fail.
Probably nice to give the digestion a little breather too.

[Wilhelm]

Dropping 300 calories a day, and looking for maintenence.
Made a couple of very small adjustments to training.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1456&p=234037#p234037

[JeanLannes]

Think I'm done with cutting. Lost about 6kg in 5 weeks and eating 1600 calories a day sucks. Hopefully this time I bulk there will be some actual muscle growth

[JohnHelton]

I have started my lean bulk with Avatar Nutrition. It is still slowly increasing my calories. Up to 2760 calories per day. It will keep pushing the calories up until I'm gaining at least .18 kg/week. I'm trying to be as precise with this bulk as I was with my cut. After my my meet in August, I plan to do a lot more hypertrophy work as well. Lift like a bro.

[michael]

@JohnHelton what's your cut-off criteria for the bulk? Do you have a maximum waist circumference?

[JohnHelton]

@JohnHelton what's your cut-off criteria for the bulk? Do you have a maximum waist circumference?

I'm not sure at this time. Barbell Medicine says you are okay below 37". That seems like a good place to stop. That would probably be up 10 lbs unless I'm very successful putting on muscle. I could cut some more now, but I don't feel like it. Maybe I will follow the up 2" and down 3" inches advice. I think I definitely have another couple inches that I can take off my waist without affecting strength but cutting sucks. I'm down about 20 lbs this year. That is enough for now.

[FredM]

@JohnHelton what's your cut-off criteria for the bulk? Do you have a maximum waist circumference?

I'm not sure at this time. Barbell Medicine says you are okay below 37". That seems like a good place to stop. That would probably be up 10 lbs unless I'm very successful putting on muscle. I could cut some more now, but I don't feel like it. Maybe I will follow the up 2" and down 3" inches advice. I think I definitely have another couple inches that I can take off my waist without affecting strength but cutting sucks. I'm down about 20 lbs this year. That is enough for now.

2/3 rule is great. I'm abandoning it now though to get super lean because my last bulk wasn't very successful. I think it's like everything -- rules on the internet can be pretty good starting points, but use common sense and make adjustments to fit your personal needs/goals (preaching to the choir, I know).

Also, I kinda prefer cuts now honestly. I really prefer maintenance (duh) but bulking while lifting hard and heavy is freaking rough when you have more than a little muscle mass (it has been for me lately). I wasn't even eating THAT clean, but I was just eating myself sick every day and still gaining very little, if any, weight.

Now that I have a better idea of what works on cuts (and a coach, lol), I lose very little strength, if any, make progress on accessory lifts, and basically just skip breakfast. Waking up starving in the middle of the night sucks, but it only happens 1-2x/wk and is literally the only real downside. And sometimes I've eaten so much food at night I can't sleep well anyway on a bulk. Plus, as an intermediate, it's not like the gains are guaranteed on a bulk anyway.

Anyway, I think I might do the Austin/BBM thing and just get really lean and "bulk" over the next 4 years. We'll see how i feel when I try bulking from a leaner state.

[5hout]

Does gaining 25 lbs because Rona drove you made count as a dreamer bulk?

[JohnHelton]

@michael, I just scheduled a DEXA scan for July 12th. I will do one at the end of the bulk too. That should give me info. on how successful the bulk was. Then I will do another after cutting. Hopefully, I won't just add a bunch of fat and end up in the same spot. I think they can measure skeletal muscle in addition to LBM. That would be pretty interesting.

[michael]

I just scheduled a DEXA scan for July 12th.

I'm jealous. I don't have one nearby.

I have a Skulpt Chisel. It's really convenient, but I'd love to see how it compares to a DXA.

[BenM]

@michael, I just scheduled a DEXA scan for July 12th. I will do one at the end of the bulk too. That should give me info. on how successful the bulk was. Then I will do another after cutting. Hopefully, I won't just add a bunch of fat and end up in the same spot. I think they can measure skeletal muscle in addition to LBM. That would be pretty interesting.

They can indeed - have you seen Alan Thrall's latest video? He lost some LBM in his cut this year but basically lost no skeletal muscle at all.

[JohnHelton]

@michael, I just scheduled a DEXA scan for July 12th. I will do one at the end of the bulk too. That should give me info. on how successful the bulk was. Then I will do another after cutting. Hopefully, I won't just add a bunch of fat and end up in the same spot. I think they can measure skeletal muscle in addition to LBM. That would be pretty interesting.

They can indeed - have you seen Alan Thrall's latest video? He lost some LBM in his cut this year but basically lost no skeletal muscle at all.

I did watch that last night. In fact that video is what made me think that I should go get a scan as a benchmark.

[GrainsAndGains]

I used to do hydrostatic bodyfat testing and I just found them incredibly demoralizing. Possibly inaccurate as well - it told my wife that she lost 5 lbs of lean body mass during a cut where she lost 8 lbs in about 10 weeks, which just couldn't possibly be true, she was only doing minimal cardio at the time and certainly wasn't at such a calorie deficit to expect that level of muscle loss. I would usually end up losing about 2-3 lbs of LBM as well - not as bad but still demoralizing, and I don't want to be demoralized over numbers that are potentially incorrect so I stopped. Never used DEXA before but it sounds like it might be a better option if it can distinguish between skeletal muscle and LBM.

[BenM]

Yeah I would love to do a DEXA just to get a proper idea, realistically though there's margin for error there too (see certain YouTubers claiming 6% body fat when they're 10-12 at best).

I honestly love Alan's point in his video above that he didn't care about the numbers and some of us get way too hung up on them. I've got years of data on my weight and body fat percentage (using a couple of metrics) but at the end of the day it isn't really that helpful. And in my case it really just drove neuroses and food obsession and disordered eating, which I'm still dealing with to some extent.

My thinking now has evolved a bit and I'm trying to focus on the metrics that actually matter to me. Those are things like the fit of my clothes, how I look in the mirror and my energy levels and training performance. I figure if strength is hanging on and clothes are fitting better, I can't be losing too much muscle. It's also why I'm only bothering to weigh myself once a week - even though there will be fluctuations in weight that might mask actual weight loss, I'd rather not get bogged down in numbers. I'd much prefer to learn how to control my body composition using a mixture of intuition/hunger cues, good eating routines/habits and visual methods. I feel like this is probably the most flexible and sustainable for me long term, unless I decide to try and get really lean in which case I might have to add some more structure/tools eventually.

ETA whoops, just realised this is the bulk thread not the cut thread, but same thing applies when I go back to maintaining then gaining in coming months...

[mettkeks]

Speaking of Dexa's: This is interesting.

[JohnHelton]

That was similar to my experience with the exception that we had more fat to discuss.