Newish Protein recommendations

[lehman906]

I just saw on Jordan’s insta story (man I’m too old for that sentence) that the protein recommendations are 1.6-3 g/kg. I think I heard Nuckols discussing that as well. The first thing that struck me is that I would be ok with 146g of protein a day at 202 lbs, which seems so crazy low. It makes me wonder, when I feel/look “tighter” and more muscular when I get 220-250g of protein in my 3000cal/day, is it all in my head? Maybe part of a dysmorphia or something? Also, why the huge range (146-273g per day for me)? Just individual differences?

[mbasic]

Oh, it's the new thing.

So the story goes, If you're cutting, or low on calories, higher protein amounts help preserve muscle.

I think if you are older you might need more as well.

[BenM]

Yeah; if you're in a surplus or eating at maintenance, protein requirements are less because carbohydrates are protein sparing to a degree. So if you're getting enough calories, it's not as crucial.

If you're in a deficit, smash that protein. Especially if you're relatively lean already.

[michael]

The evidence that you need more protein in a deficit isn't compelling.

https://mennohenselmans.com/eric-helms-protein/

[JFick]

the highest number i've ever seen in a study says .8 g / lb as having the maximum benefit. always wondered where the top of the range recommendations come from, 3 g / kg? that's like 350 g's for a 250 lb guy, just seems like a waste of money lol. but hey maybe that's the point.

[Fzt]

I've been going a bit lower than that while losing weight (~170g on 2000-2200 kcal, which is about 1.6g/kg of my goal weight of 105kg instead of my current weight of slightly less than 120kg) and I'm completely fine. I'll probably consume more just by virtue of raising my calories once I take a maintenance break or slow my weight loss at around 105kg.

[KyleSchuant]

always wondered where the top of the range recommendations come from, 3 g / kg? that's like 350 g's for a 250 lb guy

The lower and middle end of the range you can get from a normal diet. The higher end requires either very large amounts of eating and lots of calories with it, or...

https://www.barbellmedicine.com/product ... pplements/

There may be some motivations present other than what is physiologically necessary.

[OrderInChaos]

I thought this was a good read back a few years ago when I had been almost-fat and WENTMAD anyway, and continued thinking I needed 300g protein despite weighing a very unathletic 270.

https://completehumanperformance.com/20 ... te-part-2/

Protein: A good guideline is, as a rule, 1g/kg of bodyweight. 0.8 grams per kilogram is the recommended daily value established by the FDA, generated by observing large populations over time. Exceeding this with the rationale that activity level is higher in the athlete is reasonable. And the upper limit? As mentioned in another article, patients hospitalized with significant burn injuries (who are shedding body proteins at an incredibly rapid rate, close to ten times the rate of a healthy yet protein starved individual), are typically put on diets rarely exceeding 3 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight. This may seem exceptionally low to some, particularly strength athletes who are used to taking in 2-3 grams per POUND of bodyweight, but is the reality.

[JFick]

I thought this was a good read back a few years ago when I had been almost-fat and WENTMAD anyway, and continued thinking I needed 300g protein despite weighing a very unathletic 270.

https://completehumanperformance.com/20 ... te-part-2/

Protein: A good guideline is, as a rule, 1g/kg of bodyweight. 0.8 grams per kilogram is the recommended daily value established by the FDA, generated by observing large populations over time. Exceeding this with the rationale that activity level is higher in the athlete is reasonable. And the upper limit? As mentioned in another article, patients hospitalized with significant burn injuries (who are shedding body proteins at an incredibly rapid rate, close to ten times the rate of a healthy yet protein starved individual), are typically put on diets rarely exceeding 3 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight. This may seem exceptionally low to some, particularly strength athletes who are used to taking in 2-3 grams per POUND of bodyweight, but is the reality.

Yea thanks for that. The nutrition class I took in college was taught by a exercise phys professor who published studies on protein balance in professional bodybuilders. He recommended that even bodybuilders don't need more than .8 g / kg. Which is wildly low to everything we hear. So there's something off when BBM claims to be evidence based and recommends 3 g / kg.

always wondered where the top of the range recommendations come from, 3 g / kg? that's like 350 g's for a 250 lb guy

The lower and middle end of the range you can get from a normal diet. The higher end requires either very large amounts of eating and lots of calories with it, or...

https://www.barbellmedicine.com/product ... pplements/

There may be some motivations present other than what is physiologically necessary.

Right. The real issue is that if your in caloric balance or in a surplus, you don't need as much protein. Always have to look at numbers like that when someone is selling something to alleviate the problem.

[michael]

He recommended that even bodybuilders don't need more than .8 g / kg.

Are you sure it wasn't .8g / pound?

[lehman906]

He recommended that even bodybuilders don't need more than .8 g / kg.

Are you sure it wasn't .8g / pound?

Yeah, I don’t think 72g/day for a 200lb dude sounds right.

[BigDave]

always wondered where the top of the range recommendations come from, 3 g / kg? that's like 350 g's for a 250 lb guy

The lower and middle end of the range you can get from a normal diet. The higher end requires either very large amounts of eating and lots of calories with it, or...

https://www.barbellmedicine.com/product ... pplements/

There may be some motivations present other than what is physiologically necessary.

Don’t you ever get tired posting passive aggressive comments about everyone who makes money in the fitness world?

To answer the question, the upper limit of these types of recommendations come from studies that have looked at very high protein intake and found a benefit to it. For example, 3.4 g/kg showing less fat gain vs 2 g/kg https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/article ... 015-0100-0. There are others — not great individual studies, but none ever are in this field.

There is thus a range because nobody synthesizing together the studies could say with great confidence that there is an ideal number. There are many studies suggesting 1.6 is plenty, but there are some suggesting more is better. Even up to 4.4 g/kg has been looked at recently, check out Jose Antonio’s work if you’re into that.

So the recommendations by large sport nutrition groups such as the ISSN are going to be somewhere in a range: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/article ... 017-0177-8

[KyleSchuant]

Don’t you ever get tired posting passive aggressive comments about everyone who makes money in the fitness world?

I forget sometimes: we're only allowed to criticise Rippetoe on this board.

Just eat normal food, lehman.

[cgeorg]

So your response to someone posting this:

I just saw on Jordan’s insta story (man I’m too old for that sentence) that the protein recommendations are 1.6-3 g/kg. I think I heard Nuckols discussing that as well. The first thing that struck me is that I would be ok with 146g of protein a day at 202 lbs, which seems so crazy low. It makes me wonder, when I feel/look “tighter” and more muscular when I get 220-250g of protein in my 3000cal/day, is it all in my head? Maybe part of a dysmorphia or something? Also, why the huge range (146-273g per day for me)? Just individual differences?

and after suggesting that the part of the range that actually makes op feel/look "tighter" is because whey is sold, are given this:

always wondered where the top of the range recommendations come from, 3 g / kg? that's like 350 g's for a 250 lb guy

The lower and middle end of the range you can get from a normal diet. The higher end requires either very large amounts of eating and lots of calories with it, or...

https://www.barbellmedicine.com/product ... pplements/

There may be some motivations present other than what is physiologically necessary.

Don’t you ever get tired posting passive aggressive comments about everyone who makes money in the fitness world?

To answer the question, the upper limit of these types of recommendations come from studies that have looked at very high protein intake and found a benefit to it. For example, 3.4 g/kg showing less fat gain vs 2 g/kg https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/article ... 015-0100-0. There are others — not great individual studies, but none ever are in this field.

There is thus a range because nobody synthesizing together the studies could say with great confidence that there is an ideal number. There are many studies suggesting 1.6 is plenty, but there are some suggesting more is better. Even up to 4.4 g/kg has been looked at recently, check out Jose Antonio’s work if you’re into that.

So the recommendations by large sport nutrition groups such as the ISSN are going to be somewhere in a range: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/article ... 017-0177-8

Is to remove the actual presented evidence, and just say this?

Don’t you ever get tired posting passive aggressive comments about everyone who makes money in the fitness world?

I forget sometimes: we're only allowed to criticise Rippetoe on this board.

Just eat normal food, lehman.

[JFick]

He recommended that even bodybuilders don't need more than .8 g / kg.

Are you sure it wasn't .8g / pound?

Yea I'm positive. I came from the 1g/lb per Muscle and Fitness crowd mid 2000s, so the number shocked me. I'm not saying he was correct. He was all about nitrogen balance measured via urine excretion, that was a decade ago. Like I mentioned in my first post, I've seen the studies that say the .8 g/lb is the best spot. Is it possible more has a slight benefit? of course. But I would tend to think consuming more than 1g / lb is just extra calories.

[rjharris]

It makes me wonder, when I feel/look “tighter” and more muscular when I get 220-250g of protein in my 3000cal/day, is it all in my head?

probably dumb question: could this just be due to lower water retention than on a diet that's higher C/F by percentage?

[lehman906]

It makes me wonder, when I feel/look “tighter” and more muscular when I get 220-250g of protein in my 3000cal/day, is it all in my head?

probably dumb question: could this just be due to lower water retention than on a diet that's higher C/F by percentage?

Could be. I’d rather that than to discover that I’m paying for all that protein to feed my dysmorphia.

[Griff]

He recommended that even bodybuilders don't need more than .8 g / kg.

Are you sure it wasn't .8g / pound?

Yea I'm positive. I came from the 1g/lb per Muscle and Fitness crowd mid 2000s, so the number shocked me. I'm not saying he was correct. He was all about nitrogen balance measured via urine excretion, that was a decade ago. Like I mentioned in my first post, I've seen the studies that say the .8 g/lb is the best spot. Is it possible more has a slight benefit? of course. But I would tend to think consuming more than 1g / lb is just extra calories.

Yeah, it seems crazy that if you need something like 40-50g/day to not be protein deficient, you'd need 4 times that (160-200g as a 200lb Adult Male) to build/maintain muscle while resistance training. You're not building 150g of protein onto your body every day*, so seems like you have to be oxidizing a huge percentage of that protein for energy.

It also seems like if (a) you can maximally stimulate MPS with ~20g of [quality] protein in a meal and (b) you have this 3-5 hr refractory period after a meal you could be eating ~20g 3-4 times/day (60-80g total) and most everything else is excess.

I dunno, I have no science background and I get that you can't necessarily "logic" your way to answers with respect to human physiology... but I have trouble getting past the idea that eating anywhere near 1g/lb results in anything more than burning a ton of protein for energy.

*not to mention that muscle tissue is ~75% water by weight

[ChasingCurls69]

always wondered where the top of the range recommendations come from, 3 g / kg? that's like 350 g's for a 250 lb guy

The lower and middle end of the range you can get from a normal diet. The higher end requires either very large amounts of eating and lots of calories with it, or...

https://www.barbellmedicine.com/product ... pplements/

There may be some motivations present other than what is physiologically necessary.

Big Protein at it again, Jordan really settled in for the long by recommending similar protein quantities for a t least 5 years before putting out a brand of whey.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

I thought this was a good read back a few years ago when I had been almost-fat and WENTMAD anyway, and continued thinking I needed 300g protein despite weighing a very unathletic 270.

https://completehumanperformance.com/20 ... te-part-2/

Protein: A good guideline is, as a rule, 1g/kg of bodyweight. 0.8 grams per kilogram is the recommended daily value established by the FDA, generated by observing large populations over time. Exceeding this with the rationale that activity level is higher in the athlete is reasonable. And the upper limit? As mentioned in another article, patients hospitalized with significant burn injuries (who are shedding body proteins at an incredibly rapid rate, close to ten times the rate of a healthy yet protein starved individual), are typically put on diets rarely exceeding 3 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight. This may seem exceptionally low to some, particularly strength athletes who are used to taking in 2-3 grams per POUND of bodyweight, but is the reality.

To be fair getting burn victims to use the protein they are getting is pretty difficult - so whilst they have a tremendous NEED it doesn't mean they can actually process the 2kgs they require....