Police Reform Thread

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4461

Post by mgil » Sat May 28, 2022 8:42 am

Cops getting free shit is egregious. Especially when they demand it.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4462

Post by hsilman » Sat May 28, 2022 8:46 am

dw wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm I think I was wrong to identify danger as the root of the seemingly universal idealism surrounding policing.

I think the cause is probably more that police necessarily possess extraordinary privileges (namely to arrest and kill fellow citizens), and that therefore societies want to recruit people of exceptional character for these positions. (Again whether they succeed in this regard is irrelevant to the point.)

In short you want people that want to be exemplary, heroic. You don't want people that are just in it for a paycheck, the same way you don't want your military filled with mercenaries as opposed to patriots. Even less do you want people who just want the special privileges for their own sake (i.e. to bully and kill).

Note this is in relation to mouse's complaint about the idealization of police, which I think is a phenomenon worth further examination. Not here expressing an opinion on the actual state of policing in the US.
Bruh, the history of police is the history of hiring thugs to protect your property, and harass the competition. It's also the history of hiring bounty hunters as slave patrols. It's also the history of being the dregs of society, and a job no one wanted.

You really don't understand the history of police in society.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4463

Post by hector » Mon May 30, 2022 6:18 am

hsilman wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:46 am
dw wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm I think I was wrong to identify danger as the root of the seemingly universal idealism surrounding policing.

I think the cause is probably more that police necessarily possess extraordinary privileges (namely to arrest and kill fellow citizens), and that therefore societies want to recruit people of exceptional character for these positions. (Again whether they succeed in this regard is irrelevant to the point.)

In short you want people that want to be exemplary, heroic. You don't want people that are just in it for a paycheck, the same way you don't want your military filled with mercenaries as opposed to patriots. Even less do you want people who just want the special privileges for their own sake (i.e. to bully and kill).

Note this is in relation to mouse's complaint about the idealization of police, which I think is a phenomenon worth further examination. Not here expressing an opinion on the actual state of policing in the US.
Bruh, the history of police is the history of hiring thugs to protect your property, and harass the competition. It's also the history of hiring bounty hunters as slave patrols. It's also the history of being the dregs of society, and a job no one wanted.

You really don't understand the history of police in society.
I think there's also a narrative component.
We (most non-police) want to believe police are of high character, whether they are or not, because that's a simpler, less scary world to live in. For sure it's the fairytale we're fed.

This is a sub-component of believing the state is legitimate. Whether it is or isn't, if sufficiently few people believe in the state's legitimacy then the status quo fall apart.

Your community and circumstances may make it harder to buy into the fairytale.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4464

Post by hsilman » Mon May 30, 2022 6:59 am

hector wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 6:18 am
hsilman wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:46 am
dw wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm I think I was wrong to identify danger as the root of the seemingly universal idealism surrounding policing.

I think the cause is probably more that police necessarily possess extraordinary privileges (namely to arrest and kill fellow citizens), and that therefore societies want to recruit people of exceptional character for these positions. (Again whether they succeed in this regard is irrelevant to the point.)

In short you want people that want to be exemplary, heroic. You don't want people that are just in it for a paycheck, the same way you don't want your military filled with mercenaries as opposed to patriots. Even less do you want people who just want the special privileges for their own sake (i.e. to bully and kill).

Note this is in relation to mouse's complaint about the idealization of police, which I think is a phenomenon worth further examination. Not here expressing an opinion on the actual state of policing in the US.
Bruh, the history of police is the history of hiring thugs to protect your property, and harass the competition. It's also the history of hiring bounty hunters as slave patrols. It's also the history of being the dregs of society, and a job no one wanted.

You really don't understand the history of police in society.
I think there's also a narrative component.
We (most non-police) want to believe police are of high character, whether they are or not, because that's a simpler, less scary world to live in. For sure it's the fairytale we're fed.

This is a sub-component of believing the state is legitimate. Whether it is or isn't, if sufficiently few people believe in the state's legitimacy then the status quo fall apart.

Your community and circumstances may make it harder to buy into the fairytale.
But as I mentioned, "policing" has been, for most of human history, considered an unscrupulous profession with people of low moral character engaging in it. So I have a hard time believing that the fairytale, as you call it, is necessary or even beneficial for the functioning of society.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4465

Post by hector » Mon May 30, 2022 7:59 am

hsilman wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 6:59 am
hector wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 6:18 am
hsilman wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:46 am
dw wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm I think I was wrong to identify danger as the root of the seemingly universal idealism surrounding policing.

I think the cause is probably more that police necessarily possess extraordinary privileges (namely to arrest and kill fellow citizens), and that therefore societies want to recruit people of exceptional character for these positions. (Again whether they succeed in this regard is irrelevant to the point.)

In short you want people that want to be exemplary, heroic. You don't want people that are just in it for a paycheck, the same way you don't want your military filled with mercenaries as opposed to patriots. Even less do you want people who just want the special privileges for their own sake (i.e. to bully and kill).

Note this is in relation to mouse's complaint about the idealization of police, which I think is a phenomenon worth further examination. Not here expressing an opinion on the actual state of policing in the US.
Bruh, the history of police is the history of hiring thugs to protect your property, and harass the competition. It's also the history of hiring bounty hunters as slave patrols. It's also the history of being the dregs of society, and a job no one wanted.

You really don't understand the history of police in society.
I think there's also a narrative component.
We (most non-police) want to believe police are of high character, whether they are or not, because that's a simpler, less scary world to live in. For sure it's the fairytale we're fed.

This is a sub-component of believing the state is legitimate. Whether it is or isn't, if sufficiently few people believe in the state's legitimacy then the status quo fall apart.

Your community and circumstances may make it harder to buy into the fairytale.
But as I mentioned, "policing" has been, for most of human history, considered an unscrupulous profession with people of low moral character engaging in it. So I have a hard time believing that the fairytale, as you call it, is necessary or even beneficial for the functioning of society.
That's a good point. I concede. I think you're right.

History aside, countries exist right now where people know the police are corrupt and the society continues onward.

I think an honest police composed of some of our best citizens would be optimal, but not sure how common or obtainable that is.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4466

Post by Culican » Mon May 30, 2022 8:28 am

A few years ago I was talking to a coworker who was from Puerto Rico. He said that when he came to the US proper (Puerto Rico is sort of part of the US) he was shocked that everyone considered police to be heroes. He said, "We certainly don't look at them that way in Puerto Rico."

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4467

Post by Allentown » Mon May 30, 2022 11:04 am


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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4468

Post by Renascent » Mon May 30, 2022 1:11 pm

Surely there is a very good reason for this heroic response to an unarmed, pregnant suspect giving flight from perceived danger. You'd think she was running from criminals or something.

I'm sure it can be explained away by the logic of some forthcoming pretentious, contrarian nonsense.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4469

Post by Allentown » Mon May 30, 2022 3:41 pm

She had a BLM sticker on her car?

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4470

Post by mbasic » Tue May 31, 2022 3:06 pm

" The Uvalde Police Department and the Uvalde ISD police force are no longer cooperating with the @TxDPS investigation into the massacre at Robb Elementary and the state’s review of police response, multiple law enforcement sources told @AB "

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4471

Post by aurelius » Tue May 31, 2022 6:23 pm

mbasic wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 3:06 pm
God forbid they face any actual feedback of their performance other than 'heroes'. Probably the City and District attorney told them to stop cooperating for liability reasons. Civil suits are coming. But this is the case of the citizens of a Town suing themselves...fuck qualified immunity.

To add to the Town's drama: the chief of the school ISD police department, the one in charge that gave the stand down order, is a newly elected city council member who has yet to be sworn in.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4472

Post by aurelius » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:24 pm

To contrast police action in the Texas school shooting because some police do the job; today Tulsa police officers arrived at a hospital and immediately engaged an active shooter. Only 4 reported deaths.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4473

Post by Renascent » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:35 pm

aurelius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:24 pm To contrast police action in the Texas school shooting because some police do the job; today Tulsa police officers arrived at a hospital and immediately engaged an active shooter. Only 4 reported deaths.
I saw that too.

Wondering if they should get credit for doing what [some may think] they're "supposed to do," though...

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4474

Post by aurelius » Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:57 pm

Renascent wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:35 pmWondering if they should get credit for doing what [some may think] they're "supposed to do," though...
Yes. They should be recognized. It is brave to run toward gun fire. They did their job.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4475

Post by Renascent » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:08 am

aurelius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:57 pm
Renascent wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:35 pmWondering if they should get credit for doing what [some may think] they're "supposed to do," though...
Yes. They should be recognized. It is brave to run toward gun fire. They did their job.
I suppose.

Conscription's a motherfucker.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4476

Post by quark » Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:34 am

aurelius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:24 pm To contrast police action in the Texas school shooting because some police do the job; today Tulsa police officers arrived at a hospital and immediately engaged an active shooter. Only 4 reported deaths.
Not a great sign for a country when "Only 4 reported deaths" is considered good news.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4477

Post by Renascent » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:56 am

quark wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:34 am
aurelius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:24 pm To contrast police action in the Texas school shooting because some police do the job; today Tulsa police officers arrived at a hospital and immediately engaged an active shooter. Only 4 reported deaths.
Not a great sign for a country when "Only 4 reported deaths" is considered good news.
Not to make light of it, but considering only four people died in a hospital shooting --excluding the gunman -- it could've definitely been worse. Strong possibility that the gunman would've kept at it instead of opting for suicide if they'd not been met with resistance in the form of responding officers.

I was tempted to post a link to an article for likely the same reasons that @Aurelius mentioned the incident, but decided against it.

While being a law enforcement officer means exposure to risks that few other interaction-heavy occupations can match in magnitude, it seems odd to me to give somebody credit for what they're voluntarily getting paid to do. If my tax dollars are paying for state-issued Glocks, ballistic shields, and the like, then I'd like to hope that said equipment is used to neutralize a legitimate and established threat to the physical safety of others.

I'd argue that it's pretty much a given that many simply do the job they're paid to do, but I don't see a reason to thank someone for doing what is more or less expected of them in their official capacity, regardless of whether or not they're legally bound to respond to a public threat.

I'm not buying balloons or handing out cookies or flying Andrew Jacob's flags to celebrate the ones who do their jobs. A round of applause or acknowledgment shouldn't be necessary each time a cop manages to complete a traffic stop without Philando-ing a random motorist all over the dashboard.

A cop doing their job shouldn't be some noteworthy exception, regardless of the danger. That's sad.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4478

Post by Allentown » Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:33 am

Renascent wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:56 am I'd argue that it's pretty much a given that many simply do the job they're paid to do, but I don't see a reason to thank someone for doing what is more or less expected of them in their official capacity, regardless of whether or not they're legally bound to respond to a public threat.

I'm not buying balloons or handing out cookies or flying Andrew Jacob's flags to celebrate the ones who do their jobs. A round of applause or acknowledgment shouldn't be necessary each time a cop manages to complete a traffic stop without Philando-ing a random motorist all over the dashboard.

A cop doing their job shouldn't be some noteworthy exception, regardless of the danger. That's sad.
I have probably said it a dozen times in this thread, but garbage collectors do more for us as a society with more danger and no one is flying specialized 'murrican flags for THEM.

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4479

Post by mikeylikey » Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:36 am

Renascent wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:56 am
quark wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:34 am
aurelius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:24 pm To contrast police action in the Texas school shooting because some police do the job; today Tulsa police officers arrived at a hospital and immediately engaged an active shooter. Only 4 reported deaths.
Not a great sign for a country when "Only 4 reported deaths" is considered good news.
Not to make light of it, but considering only four people died in a hospital shooting --excluding the gunman -- it could've definitely been worse. Strong possibility that the gunman would've kept at it instead of opting for suicide if they'd not been met with resistance in the form of responding officers.

I was tempted to post a link to an article for likely the same reasons that @Aurelius mentioned the incident, but decided against it.

While being a law enforcement officer means exposure to risks that few other interaction-heavy occupations can match in magnitude, it seems odd to me to give somebody credit for what they're voluntarily getting paid to do. If my tax dollars are paying for state-issued Glocks, ballistic shields, and the like, then I'd like to hope that said equipment is used to neutralize a legitimate and established threat to the physical safety of others.

I'd argue that it's pretty much a given that many simply do the job they're paid to do, but I don't see a reason to thank someone for doing what is more or less expected of them in their official capacity, regardless of whether or not they're legally bound to respond to a public threat.

I'm not buying balloons or handing out cookies or flying Andrew Jacob's flags to celebrate the ones who do their jobs. A round of applause or acknowledgment shouldn't be necessary each time a cop manages to complete a traffic stop without Philando-ing a random motorist all over the dashboard.

A cop doing their job shouldn't be some noteworthy exception, regardless of the danger. That's sad.
Forget for a moment that they're cops and all the parsing of where to draw the line of what a badge obligates them to do.

Several dozen grown men with guns did nothing for over an hour while one guy murdered children. Forget what we should expect of cops... I expect more out of my fellow Americans. And TEXANS at that.

aurelius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:57 pm
Renascent wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:35 pmWondering if they should get credit for doing what [some may think] they're "supposed to do," though...
Yes. They should be recognized. It is brave to run toward gun fire. They did their job.
Everybody understands that danger is part of certain jobs, when they sign up. We expect firemen to run into burning buildings, yes but we also give them medals when they do. Expectation and applause are not mutually exclusive.
Renascent wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:08 am
Conscription's a motherfucker.
What conscription?

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Re: Police Reform Thread

#4480

Post by Renascent » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:05 am

Allentown wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:33 am
Renascent wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:56 am I'd argue that it's pretty much a given that many simply do the job they're paid to do, but I don't see a reason to thank someone for doing what is more or less expected of them in their official capacity, regardless of whether or not they're legally bound to respond to a public threat.

I'm not buying balloons or handing out cookies or flying Andrew Jacob's flags to celebrate the ones who do their jobs. A round of applause or acknowledgment shouldn't be necessary each time a cop manages to complete a traffic stop without Philando-ing a random motorist all over the dashboard.

A cop doing their job shouldn't be some noteworthy exception, regardless of the danger. That's sad.
I have probably said it a dozen times in this thread, but garbage collectors do more for us as a society with more danger and no one is flying specialized 'murrican flags for THEM.
I kinda wanted to say something along these lines, but felt that I might belabor my own point.
Last edited by Renascent on Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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