Police Reform Thread

[mouse]

This heroes narrative regarding our police needs to die.

You and I don't always see eye to eye on things but holy shit PREACH MY BROTHA...

Situation would have been resolved quicker if any one of the cops had just handed over their gear to a mom or two in the crowd.

I was reading a story about a mom who was put in handcuffs for 'interfering with an active investigation' who immediately sprinted to the building when they finally took the cuffs off and thinking to myself that if my kids were in there I don't think they would have got the cuffs on... hell... may have taken out a few of the cops on my way in...

[Allentown]

I see the opposite much more commonly these days (e.g. ACAB and similar inanities), and coming from more respectable quarters.

You must be missing the 24/7 police boner Republicans have.

All those ACAB flags and car stickers everywhere...
Businesses with ACAB posters in their windows...
Stores with ACAB discounts...

[TimF]

Twitter thread about the fact that cops have no duty to protect anyone but themselves:

[dw]

I see the opposite much more commonly these days (e.g. ACAB and similar inanities), and coming from more respectable quarters.

You must be missing the 24/7 police boner Republicans have.

All those ACAB flags and car stickers everywhere...
Businesses with ACAB posters in their windows...
Stores with ACAB discounts...

Twitter? University class rooms?

ETA - Cops being banned from Starbucks* and other individual restaurants. BLM banners displayed outside seemingly every consumer-oriented business in Seattle last time I was there (or do you take these to be acts of genuine conviction rather than conformity?)


*Yes I'm aware it's not corporate policy.

[dw]

This heroes narrative regarding our police needs to die.

You and I don't always see eye to eye on things but holy shit PREACH MY BROTHA...

Situation would have been resolved quicker if any one of the cops had just handed over their gear to a mom or two in the crowd.

I was reading a story about a mom who was put in handcuffs for 'interfering with an active investigation' who immediately sprinted to the building when they finally took the cuffs off and thinking to myself that if my kids were in there I don't think they would have got the cuffs on... hell... may have taken out a few of the cops on my way in...

A certain degree of valorization of police and military exists in all societies (hence the uniforms, ranks, medals, special benefits et al. that set them apart from other citizens).

This is necessary because whether or not any individual soldier or police officer is actually heroic, the job requires them to be 'heroic' in the sense of risking their lives to protect others. Again this is regardless of whether they actually do this or whether they ever find themselves in a dangerous situation.

So you want to recruit people to those occupations that are inspired by the ideals of sacrifice and public service.

I take things like discounts for police offered by private businesses to be a sign of a healthy society, even if they can be construed as part of the larger pro-police propaganda movement. That people actually see them as nefarious seems bizarre to me unless you're a revolutionary.

[Renascent]

If a contingent of angry parents in Uvalde -- or even an angry mob outside One First Street -- decides to forgo the "civil" pageantry of venting their frustrations through the usual established, ineffective channels, and loots and burns down a nearby Macy's instead, I'm sure we'll see plenty of "heroics" and be swiftly reminded of local police forces' sworn duty to protect ... stuff.

[dw]

If a contingent of angry parents in Uvalde -- or even an angry mob outside One First Street -- decides to forgo the "civil" pageantry of venting their frustrations through the usual established, ineffective channels, and loots and burns down a nearby Macy's instead, I'm sure we'll see plenty of "heroics" and be swiftly reminded of local police forces' sworn duty to protect ... stuff.

Is it bad to arrest looters and arsonists?

[Renascent]

If a contingent of angry parents in Uvalde -- or even an angry mob outside One First Street -- decides to forgo the "civil" pageantry of venting their frustrations through the usual established, ineffective channels, and loots and burns down a nearby Macy's instead, I'm sure we'll see plenty of "heroics" and be swiftly reminded of local police forces' sworn duty to protect ... stuff.

Is it bad to arrest looters and arsonists?

Depends.

[Allentown]

Twitter? University class rooms?

ETA - Cops being banned from Starbucks* and other individual restaurants. BLM banners displayed outside seemingly every consumer-oriented business in Seattle last time I was there (or do you take these to be acts of genuine conviction rather than conformity?)


*Yes I'm aware it's not corporate policy.

I suppose BLM and ACAB share one letter in common, so I can give you 1/4 of a point for not knowing the other letters are different.

If you see ACAB on twitter, it is because you are purposely looking for it, I don't know what to tell you.

[dw]

Twitter? University class rooms?

ETA - Cops being banned from Starbucks* and other individual restaurants. BLM banners displayed outside seemingly every consumer-oriented business in Seattle last time I was there (or do you take these to be acts of genuine conviction rather than conformity?)


*Yes I'm aware it's not corporate policy.

I suppose BLM and ACAB share one letter in common, so I can give you 1/4 of a point for not knowing the other letters are different.

Oh you thought at issue was a specific acronym rather than the school of thought it epitomizes?

[Renascent]

@dw, I thought I was bored enough to play along with the trollposting; turns out that I'm not.

I'm not going to argue about which "crimes" are worthy of punitive responses. We're not going to change each other's minds, obviously. Suffice it to say that I personally have little trust in the enforcers, and even less faith in the lawmakers.

We clearly see things differently. My point was that we'd most assuredly see riot gear, respiratory irritants, and other elements of military cosplay the moment capital is endangered. Fuck saving anybody. Historically, police have never been required to risk their lives for anything on these shores besides the return of fugitive slaves and the protection of monied property.

Regardless of whether you disagree, I doubt that was lost on you.

[Hiphopapotamus]

Local PD also apparently kept other LE from entering, not just parents:

Border Patrol Tactical Team Was Ordered to Hold Back Before Confronting the Gunman

[cgeorg]

A certain degree of valorization of police and military exists in all societies (hence the uniforms, ranks, medals, special benefits et al. that set them apart from other citizens).

This is necessary because whether or not any individual soldier or police officer is actually heroic, the job requires them to be 'heroic' in the sense of risking their lives to protect others.

No it doesn't. See the posts above outlining how it doesn't require them risk their lives.

What it DOES do is grant them immunity for whatever the fuck they want to do when power tripping. They are trained for dangerous situations, yet their bar for fear for personal safety is lower than that of a civilian. Criminal.

Talk is cheap. There are some number of good cops, yes. I am leery to say many, because I consider otherwise good cops who do nothing about bad cops to be bad cops, and that seems to be a majority of cops. But, the laws surrounding policing would seem to encourage shitty cops joining the ranks, much more so than good ones.

[dw]

I think I was wrong to identify danger as the root of the seemingly universal idealism surrounding policing.

I think the cause is probably more that police necessarily possess extraordinary privileges (namely to arrest and kill fellow citizens), and that therefore societies want to recruit people of exceptional character for these positions. (Again whether they succeed in this regard is irrelevant to the point.)

In short you want people that want to be exemplary, heroic. You don't want people that are just in it for a paycheck, the same way you don't want your military filled with mercenaries as opposed to patriots. Even less do you want people who just want the special privileges for their own sake (i.e. to bully and kill).

Note this is in relation to mouse's complaint about the idealization of police, which I think is a phenomenon worth further examination. Not here expressing an opinion on the actual state of policing in the US.

[aurelius]

A certain degree of valorization of police and military exists in all societies (hence the uniforms, ranks, medals, special benefits et al. that set them apart from other citizens).

Not true. Many places, including in the US, LE is a tool of oppression despised by the general population.

This is necessary because whether or not any individual soldier or police officer is actually heroic, the job requires them to be 'heroic' in the sense of risking their lives to protect others. Again this is regardless of whether they actually do this or whether they ever find themselves in a dangerous situation.

Except LE in the United States 1) has no obligation to do so (see SCOTUS) and 2) routinely does not as the most recent shooting demonstrates.

And I disagree with your entire premise that LE must be valorized. LE in a free society should be respected not valorized. They are equals and fellow citizens. Citizen soldiers. That is the backbone of a free society.

A praetorian guard must be valorized. Because they don't do anything to earn their status. So they demand respect and honor. LE in the United States has largely become a praetorian guard.

So you want to recruit people to those occupations that are inspired by the ideals of sacrifice and public service.

Sure. Except LE naturally attracts bullies.

I take things like discounts for police offered by private businesses to be a sign of a healthy society, even if they can be construed as part of the larger pro-police propaganda movement. That people actually see them as nefarious seems bizarre to me unless you're a revolutionary.

You think I'm talking about discounts? You talking about discounts? Discounts? This fool over here talking about discounts? Discounts?

I'm talking about LE not being held to the same liability, both criminal and civil, rules everyone else it. With rights and priviliges not afforded to the general population. And what do they do? Sit outside a door for an hour while single gun man kills children. Because he had a gun. Praetorian guard.

This in no way responds to the Right's blind glorification and allegiance to LE (who so for 'tools of oppression' reasons not because they think they are heroes). Who, despite stating they are for less government, routinely expand police powers. The most watched news media organization in the US (Fox News) practically performs verbal fellatio on any LE anytime they get a cat out of a tree. There are entire lobby groups, unions, a major political party, mainstream media organizations, community organizers, and on and on they do nothing but blindly support police. I almost see a thin blue line shirt or car sticker daily.

[dw]

Churlish post gets terse response.

[aurelius]

Churlish post gets terse response.

Churlish - Had not heard that one in awhile. Word of the day!

[cgeorg]

Churlish post gets terse response.

You're missing the meat though. Sure we want policing to attract heroic individuals. But it doesn't, and it's broken (attracting and protecting bad actors.)

And there are legions who don't see this.

[Renascent]

And there are legions who don't see this.

Or pretend not to.

[dw]

Churlish post gets terse response.

You're missing the meat though. Sure we want policing to attract heroic individuals. But it doesn't, and it's broken (attracting and protecting bad actors.)

And there are legions who don't see this.

I'm not missing your opinion, I was addressing something altogether different, namely why the tendency to assign to some degree an elevated status to police is universal and necessary. (Even if they are widely hated, which the kind of thing you find in a society on the brink of revolution, they are still elevated at the institutional level with medals, parades, all the pageantry).

Whether X percent or Y percent of the hundreds of thousands of US police are bad is not a matter that can be answered by anecdotal evidence filtered through the media, and consequently that part of the thread is not of interest to me.