Exodus Strength

dw wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm I think I was wrong to identify danger as the root of the seemingly universal idealism surrounding policing.

I think the cause is probably more that police necessarily possess extraordinary privileges (namely to arrest and kill fellow citizens), and that therefore societies want to recruit people of exceptional character for these positions. (Again whether they succeed in this regard is irrelevant to the point.)

In short you want people that want to be exemplary, heroic. You don't want people that are just in it for a paycheck, the same way you don't want your military filled with mercenaries as opposed to patriots. Even less do you want people who just want the special privileges for their own sake (i.e. to bully and kill).

Note this is in relation to mouse's complaint about the idealization of police, which I think is a phenomenon worth further examination. Not here expressing an opinion on the actual state of policing in the US.

hsilman wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:46 am

dw wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm I think I was wrong to identify danger as the root of the seemingly universal idealism surrounding policing.

I think the cause is probably more that police necessarily possess extraordinary privileges (namely to arrest and kill fellow citizens), and that therefore societies want to recruit people of exceptional character for these positions. (Again whether they succeed in this regard is irrelevant to the point.)

In short you want people that want to be exemplary, heroic. You don't want people that are just in it for a paycheck, the same way you don't want your military filled with mercenaries as opposed to patriots. Even less do you want people who just want the special privileges for their own sake (i.e. to bully and kill).

Note this is in relation to mouse's complaint about the idealization of police, which I think is a phenomenon worth further examination. Not here expressing an opinion on the actual state of policing in the US.

Bruh, the history of police is the history of hiring thugs to protect your property, and harass the competition. It's also the history of hiring bounty hunters as slave patrols. It's also the history of being the dregs of society, and a job no one wanted.

You really don't understand the history of police in society.

hector wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 6:18 am

hsilman wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:46 am

dw wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm I think I was wrong to identify danger as the root of the seemingly universal idealism surrounding policing.

I think the cause is probably more that police necessarily possess extraordinary privileges (namely to arrest and kill fellow citizens), and that therefore societies want to recruit people of exceptional character for these positions. (Again whether they succeed in this regard is irrelevant to the point.)

In short you want people that want to be exemplary, heroic. You don't want people that are just in it for a paycheck, the same way you don't want your military filled with mercenaries as opposed to patriots. Even less do you want people who just want the special privileges for their own sake (i.e. to bully and kill).

Note this is in relation to mouse's complaint about the idealization of police, which I think is a phenomenon worth further examination. Not here expressing an opinion on the actual state of policing in the US.

Bruh, the history of police is the history of hiring thugs to protect your property, and harass the competition. It's also the history of hiring bounty hunters as slave patrols. It's also the history of being the dregs of society, and a job no one wanted.

You really don't understand the history of police in society.

I think there's also a narrative component.
We (most non-police) want to believe police are of high character, whether they are or not, because that's a simpler, less scary world to live in. For sure it's the fairytale we're fed.

This is a sub-component of believing the state is legitimate. Whether it is or isn't, if sufficiently few people believe in the state's legitimacy then the status quo fall apart.

Your community and circumstances may make it harder to buy into the fairytale.

hsilman wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 6:59 am

hector wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 6:18 am

hsilman wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:46 am

dw wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 4:05 pm I think I was wrong to identify danger as the root of the seemingly universal idealism surrounding policing.

I think the cause is probably more that police necessarily possess extraordinary privileges (namely to arrest and kill fellow citizens), and that therefore societies want to recruit people of exceptional character for these positions. (Again whether they succeed in this regard is irrelevant to the point.)

In short you want people that want to be exemplary, heroic. You don't want people that are just in it for a paycheck, the same way you don't want your military filled with mercenaries as opposed to patriots. Even less do you want people who just want the special privileges for their own sake (i.e. to bully and kill).

Note this is in relation to mouse's complaint about the idealization of police, which I think is a phenomenon worth further examination. Not here expressing an opinion on the actual state of policing in the US.

Bruh, the history of police is the history of hiring thugs to protect your property, and harass the competition. It's also the history of hiring bounty hunters as slave patrols. It's also the history of being the dregs of society, and a job no one wanted.

You really don't understand the history of police in society.

I think there's also a narrative component.
We (most non-police) want to believe police are of high character, whether they are or not, because that's a simpler, less scary world to live in. For sure it's the fairytale we're fed.

This is a sub-component of believing the state is legitimate. Whether it is or isn't, if sufficiently few people believe in the state's legitimacy then the status quo fall apart.

Your community and circumstances may make it harder to buy into the fairytale.

But as I mentioned, "policing" has been, for most of human history, considered an unscrupulous profession with people of low moral character engaging in it. So I have a hard time believing that the fairytale, as you call it, is necessary or even beneficial for the functioning of society.

" The Uvalde Police Department and the Uvalde ISD police force are no longer cooperating with the @TxDPS investigation into the massacre at Robb Elementary and the state’s review of police response, multiple law enforcement sources told @AB "

mbasic wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 3:06 pm

aurelius wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:24 pm To contrast police action in the Texas school shooting because some police do the job; today Tulsa police officers arrived at a hospital and immediately engaged an active shooter. Only 4 reported deaths.

Renascent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:35 pmWondering if they should get credit for doing what [some may think] they're "supposed to do," though...

aurelius wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:57 pm

Renascent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:35 pmWondering if they should get credit for doing what [some may think] they're "supposed to do," though...

Yes. They should be recognized. It is brave to run toward gun fire. They did their job.

aurelius wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:24 pm To contrast police action in the Texas school shooting because some police do the job; today Tulsa police officers arrived at a hospital and immediately engaged an active shooter. Only 4 reported deaths.

quark wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:34 am

aurelius wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:24 pm To contrast police action in the Texas school shooting because some police do the job; today Tulsa police officers arrived at a hospital and immediately engaged an active shooter. Only 4 reported deaths.

Not a great sign for a country when "Only 4 reported deaths" is considered good news.

Renascent wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:56 am I'd argue that it's pretty much a given that many simply do the job they're paid to do, but I don't see a reason to thank someone for doing what is more or less expected of them in their official capacity, regardless of whether or not they're legally bound to respond to a public threat.

I'm not buying balloons or handing out cookies or flying Andrew Jacob's flags to celebrate the ones who do their jobs. A round of applause or acknowledgment shouldn't be necessary each time a cop manages to complete a traffic stop without Philando-ing a random motorist all over the dashboard.

A cop doing their job shouldn't be some noteworthy exception, regardless of the danger. That's sad.

Renascent wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:56 am

quark wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:34 am

aurelius wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:24 pm To contrast police action in the Texas school shooting because some police do the job; today Tulsa police officers arrived at a hospital and immediately engaged an active shooter. Only 4 reported deaths.

Not a great sign for a country when "Only 4 reported deaths" is considered good news.

Not to make light of it, but considering only four people died in a hospital shooting --excluding the gunman -- it could've definitely been worse. Strong possibility that the gunman would've kept at it instead of opting for suicide if they'd not been met with resistance in the form of responding officers.

I was tempted to post a link to an article for likely the same reasons that @Aurelius mentioned the incident, but decided against it.

While being a law enforcement officer means exposure to risks that few other interaction-heavy occupations can match in magnitude, it seems odd to me to give somebody credit for what they're voluntarily getting paid to do. If my tax dollars are paying for state-issued Glocks, ballistic shields, and the like, then I'd like to hope that said equipment is used to neutralize a legitimate and established threat to the physical safety of others.

I'd argue that it's pretty much a given that many simply do the job they're paid to do, but I don't see a reason to thank someone for doing what is more or less expected of them in their official capacity, regardless of whether or not they're legally bound to respond to a public threat.

I'm not buying balloons or handing out cookies or flying Andrew Jacob's flags to celebrate the ones who do their jobs. A round of applause or acknowledgment shouldn't be necessary each time a cop manages to complete a traffic stop without Philando-ing a random motorist all over the dashboard.

A cop doing their job shouldn't be some noteworthy exception, regardless of the danger. That's sad.

aurelius wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:57 pm

Renascent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:35 pmWondering if they should get credit for doing what [some may think] they're "supposed to do," though...

Yes. They should be recognized. It is brave to run toward gun fire. They did their job.

Renascent wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:08 am
Conscription's a motherfucker.

Allentown wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:33 am

Renascent wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:56 am I'd argue that it's pretty much a given that many simply do the job they're paid to do, but I don't see a reason to thank someone for doing what is more or less expected of them in their official capacity, regardless of whether or not they're legally bound to respond to a public threat.

I'm not buying balloons or handing out cookies or flying Andrew Jacob's flags to celebrate the ones who do their jobs. A round of applause or acknowledgment shouldn't be necessary each time a cop manages to complete a traffic stop without Philando-ing a random motorist all over the dashboard.

A cop doing their job shouldn't be some noteworthy exception, regardless of the danger. That's sad.

I have probably said it a dozen times in this thread, but garbage collectors do more for us as a society with more danger and no one is flying specialized 'murrican flags for THEM.