Low-carb diets and ketosis

What's a carb? A car part? What's a macro? A type of camera lens?

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Hardartery
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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#141

Post by Hardartery » Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:49 am

mbasic wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:25 am
Allentown wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:07 am https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQwfLZDAHs ... =copy_link

Possibly don't do Keto if you are looking to increase or maintain LBM?
1 - meta study ... with only n=288 spread out over 13 trials/studies?

2 - [TL;DR "water is wet"] I wonder how they measured LBM in all 13 of the studies?

Every knows the first thing to go is a shit-ton of water weight when embarking on one of these diets.
People often bitch at the lowcarb-ers: "yOu ArE nOT LoOSiNg tHat muCH fAt!!! iTs AlL wATeR WeiGHT yOU DumB A$S !!!111!"

IIRC, water is a big part of muscle, because muscle stored glycogen.
So I might be wrong, but it wouldn't be surprising if your MEASURABLE muscle mass went down on a Dexa scan or whatever,
because glycogen reserves are being depleted.
I don't think all that translates to you loosing actually muscle contractile units(cells) or whatever.
Fat cells contain mostly fat, its basically oil IIRC.
Most of animal body water is contained in various body fluids. These include intracellular fluid; extracellular fluid; plasma; interstitial fluid; and transcellular fluid.[5] Water is also contained inside organs, in gastrointestinal, cerebrospinal, peritoneal, and ocular fluids. Adipose tissue contains about 10% of water, while muscle tissue contains about 75%.[6][7]
Being that inherit water loss is a ubiquitous physiological effect for low-barb/keto diets .... it wouldn't be surprising if every one of the 13 studies is kinda fucked up in that same way.

Maybe I'm wrong.
I think you are very correct in your thinking. The higher protein would support muscle growth, but the loss of glycogen would result in loss of water which would result in loss of muscle volume. Like I started taking creatine (Many years ago) I gained 10lbs straight away, and when I stopped taking it I lost htose ten pounds quite rapidly. It was just water weight, but would definitely contribute to skewing all of the accepted available measurements for LBM and bodyfat %. And you look less "Swole" with less volume of water. BBers replenish carbs between pre-judging and judging to pump everything back up and look rounder and fuller, that's all about water retention. If they overdo it they look a little puffy and "Less sharp", which is to say it affects the skin and hides striations and stuff a little. I am significantly more vascular on keto, and cutting fat from everywhere. A big difference is I still have shoulders, which tried to disappear on me the one other time I did a big cut and wasn't keto.

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mbasic
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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#142

Post by mbasic » Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:14 am

Hardartery wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:49 am
mbasic wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:25 am
Allentown wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:07 am https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQwfLZDAHs ... =copy_link

Possibly don't do Keto if you are looking to increase or maintain LBM?
1 - meta study ... with only n=288 spread out over 13 trials/studies?

2 - [TL;DR "water is wet"] I wonder how they measured LBM in all 13 of the studies?

Every knows the first thing to go is a shit-ton of water weight when embarking on one of these diets.
People often bitch at the lowcarb-ers: "yOu ArE nOT LoOSiNg tHat muCH fAt!!! iTs AlL wATeR WeiGHT yOU DumB A$S !!!111!"

IIRC, water is a big part of muscle, because muscle stored glycogen.
So I might be wrong, but it wouldn't be surprising if your MEASURABLE muscle mass went down on a Dexa scan or whatever,
because glycogen reserves are being depleted.
I don't think all that translates to you loosing actually muscle contractile units(cells) or whatever.
Fat cells contain mostly fat, its basically oil IIRC.
Most of animal body water is contained in various body fluids. These include intracellular fluid; extracellular fluid; plasma; interstitial fluid; and transcellular fluid.[5] Water is also contained inside organs, in gastrointestinal, cerebrospinal, peritoneal, and ocular fluids. Adipose tissue contains about 10% of water, while muscle tissue contains about 75%.[6][7]
Being that inherit water loss is a ubiquitous physiological effect for low-barb/keto diets .... it wouldn't be surprising if every one of the 13 studies is kinda fucked up in that same way.

Maybe I'm wrong.
I think you are very correct in your thinking. The higher protein would support muscle growth, but the loss of glycogen would result in loss of water which would result in loss of muscle volume. Like I started taking creatine (Many years ago) I gained 10lbs straight away, and when I stopped taking it I lost htose ten pounds quite rapidly. It was just water weight, but would definitely contribute to skewing all of the accepted available measurements for LBM and bodyfat %. And you look less "Swole" with less volume of water. BBers replenish carbs between pre-judging and judging to pump everything back up and look rounder and fuller, that's all about water retention. If they overdo it they look a little puffy and "Less sharp", which is to say it affects the skin and hides striations and stuff a little. I am significantly more vascular on keto, and cutting fat from everywhere. A big difference is I still have shoulders, which tried to disappear on me the one other time I did a big cut and wasn't keto.
yeah, that water weight thing would be a big confounder.
I mean, they're not wrong saying "LBM" ...because the "Mass" in "LBM" did go down.

The other thing is these studies hadly every use good Strength Training Programs....one might have to taylor the STP to the diet.
And studies were using subjects who were doing normal things (eating a normal diet, etc) just prior to this.
I bet (not sure) there's an adaptive phase to "going Keto"....that interim period could be very suboptimal to ANY kind of training.
IOW: I bet they didn't wait for subjects to become keto-adapted, because time-constraints, money, hard to control, etc.
Just because you are (initially) showing ketone levels in your blood, doesn't mean you are 100% keto-adapted yet.

Similar to this^ but a different issue... I saw some articles how strength training would be suboptimal on keto, because its "anaerobic"..... and one would be better off doing "aerobic" exercise.

I think the idea here was "aerobically" you could burn enough fat along with oxygen to keep going on optimally.
I THINK the "anaerobic" condition you have to burn quite a bit of glycogen.

BUT .... the way I "strength train", and many others around here .... I don't think we are reeeeeally tapping into glycogen reserves all that much.
You simply run out of/low ATP first and there's other fatiguing factors where we terminate a set or session before you deplete shit to where glycogen becomes a problem.

Doing a set of 3 to 8 reps that takes 8 to 20 seconds (maybe 5, or less, seconds of actual concentric "work") that terminates at RPE 8 seems like all ATP-CP to me. Rest 2-4 minutes and your aerobic system would replenish ATP.

NOW IF you were a body builder doing endless sets of 10's with 30-45 second rests, and/or say a crossfitter, and/or doing stupid training/rep schemes we typically see in those University studies ....yeah, its an "anaerobically reliant" workout. And no shit, you are going to likely suffer.

Looking the study the "You Shouldn't Do Strength Training on Keto" article cited .... they did rapid windgate sprints on a sta.bike to show that the anaerobic system is getting fucked ....so ummm yeah no shit bro. Most strength athletes (PLers, WLers, SLers (lolz) ) aren't training that way 95% of the time.
Strongman ... yeah, they should probably be eating carbs.

**SOMEONE WITH A BETTER HANDLE OF THE ENERGENIC SYSTEMS PLEASE COMMENT** because I know I'm not good at this stuff

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mbasic
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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#143

Post by mbasic » Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:39 am

I'm ""in ketosis"" now according to the wife electro-blood-meter-GKI-thingie....

Measures blood glucose and ketones.

I made it!

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Hardartery
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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#144

Post by Hardartery » Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:41 pm

mbasic wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:14 am
yeah, that water weight thing would be a big confounder.
I mean, they're not wrong saying "LBM" ...because the "Mass" in "LBM" did go down.

The other thing is these studies hadly every use good Strength Training Programs....one might have to taylor the STP to the diet.
And studies were using subjects who were doing normal things (eating a normal diet, etc) just prior to this.
I bet (not sure) there's an adaptive phase to "going Keto"....that interim period could be very suboptimal to ANY kind of training.
IOW: I bet they didn't wait for subjects to become keto-adapted, because time-constraints, money, hard to control, etc.
Just because you are (initially) showing ketone levels in your blood, doesn't mean you are 100% keto-adapted yet.

Similar to this^ but a different issue... I saw some articles how strength training would be suboptimal on keto, because its "anaerobic"..... and one would be better off doing "aerobic" exercise.

I think the idea here was "aerobically" you could burn enough fat along with oxygen to keep going on optimally.
I THINK the "anaerobic" condition you have to burn quite a bit of glycogen.

BUT .... the way I "strength train", and many others around here .... I don't think we are reeeeeally tapping into glycogen reserves all that much.
You simply run out of/low ATP first and there's other fatiguing factors where we terminate a set or session before you deplete shit to where glycogen becomes a problem.

Doing a set of 3 to 8 reps that takes 8 to 20 seconds (maybe 5, or less, seconds of actual concentric "work") that terminates at RPE 8 seems like all ATP-CP to me. Rest 2-4 minutes and your aerobic system would replenish ATP.

NOW IF you were a body builder doing endless sets of 10's with 30-45 second rests, and/or say a crossfitter, and/or doing stupid training/rep schemes we typically see in those University studies ....yeah, its an "anaerobically reliant" workout. And no shit, you are going to likely suffer.

Looking the study the "You Shouldn't Do Strength Training on Keto" article cited .... they did rapid windgate sprints on a sta.bike to show that the anaerobic system is getting fucked ....so ummm yeah no shit bro. Most strength athletes (PLers, WLers, SLers (lolz) ) aren't training that way 95% of the time.
Strongman ... yeah, they should probably be eating carbs.

**SOMEONE WITH A BETTER HANDLE OF THE ENERGENIC SYSTEMS PLEASE COMMENT** because I know I'm not good at this stuff
I think that aerobic activity is great to deplete glycogen and get you into ketosis faster. I cannot speak for others as to their intensity of lifting and such, but I know from the years of lifting how I work. I can absolutely bur through everything in a normal lifting session, which may not even look like much when you read the sets and reps. I can actually feel when I hit the wall with my calcium levels, I can literally feel the change in the muscles at this point and know when to call it for the session. I also know what happens if I keep going and ignore what I'm feeling. I can take a mild carb hit before a lifting session and it will be gone by the end of the session. Mild, like 20g of carbs or less. I would theorize that a keto diet is significantly better for lifting than aerobic activity. I can see the possibility of there being a lower rate of muscle loss while doing aerobic stuff and using keto, but there would theoretically be a good chance of the increased protein synthesis from lifting making keto very effective for muscle sparing while cutting. A non-keto cutting diet was not muscle sparing for me, at all. It tanked my androgen levels as well.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#145

Post by Wilhelm » Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:07 am

MCT oil about an hour before lifting.
I use it everyday already, but will sometimes go w/ 2 Tbsp in the morning shake vs. 1 normally.

BHB hits the bloodstream about an hour after ingesting.
Plenty of extra fuel for immediate use.

It's just fuel, just as carbs are.
People do preworkout carbs, and even pre workout stimulant.
This isn't different in principal


I was doing the MM 3 week squat portion at the top reps per session RX for 21 weeks straight, and added 6 aditional heavy singles to the normal 3 per cycle towards the end of that run.
That's not low volume (or intensity) by any stretch.

I don't have issues retaining lean mass.
https://i.imgur.com/nBUmyvA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wgpeoU0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0cA7M7B.jpg

If it works for you, whatever it is, then do that.
n=1 is all that actually matters when it comes down to it.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#146

Post by mbasic » Thu Jan 18, 2024 2:43 pm

keto / low carb sucks

fonzieiwaswrong.gif

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cgeorg
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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#147

Post by cgeorg » Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:11 am

Next time you have 4 hours to kill:


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