Low-carb diets and ketosis

[5hout]

No skin? This is a keto thread. Eat the skin.

I'm all about chicken skin, but I don't eat it cold. If I'm having mayo and chicken thigh salad at 6:30am, the skin was nommed before.

[JohnHelton]

And heavy cream is delicious.

[Wilhelm]

I don't think i can keep this up. (daily calories)
Posted this in the bulking thread, but i'm curious if anyone has experience with the "body fat makes up the difference to remain in a surplus/recomp approach" while doing LCHF.

I'm seriously condidering dropping calories now.

I'm starting week 17 of surplus, my average is 3,537 calories daily, and i've gained 5 lbs plus or minus a little.
Belt went down one hole at the end of the cut, is back up one and not too tight there.

Body comp is better than before the cut, but i have plenty of fat i could be using to remain in a surplus, since i'm fully fat adapted (keto for over three years running).

I just don't think i can stand to keep up this level of intake.
Pretty sure i will be able to continue to get stronger if i average between 3,000 and 3,200 calories daily.
I just need to be comfortable even if i see a drop in weight.

If my lifts go up for the meet, my IPF points will jump way up if i'm significantly lighter.
Awards in my meets are age adjusted IPF points across all classes, including the Open, as there aren't really full groups in the Masters.

My total is what matters most, but a higher award would be a cool bonus, if i can earn it.

[5hout]

I have a very limited sample size to address that issue, however: I would suggest eating at or slightly, slightly above maintenance, and just seeing what happens. From the 2nd week of Sept through end of October I ran the Montana Method Template from the thread (more or less) at maintenance, maybe slightly above maintenance. My concern was the that the minimal-to-non-existent surplus would limit gains. I did not feel that it prevented me from gaining strength or size, however since it was a small duration and I had done terrible programming before it's hard to say if the switch was from programming, diet or both.

Take 4-8 weeks, eat at 3-3.2k, continue to lift according to your programming and see what happens. Does RPE (exertion, not eating ) go up? Does your recovery flatline or fall off a cliff? Do your numbers go up or (if you do something like 1@8 every other Wednesday) does it tend to get easier, stay the same, or get harder over time?

Average-bad case: 4 weeks in your lifts have flatlined and workouts feel grindy, now you've learned that you've got to re-tool your diet to get 3.5k in a day. Average-average case: 4 weeks in your lifts are fine, workouts are fine, maybe you decide you want to go up to 3.1-3.3k a day.

In any event, you've got a 4 week break from the slog of 3.5k/day on keto. Also: What's a week of eating and meal prep look like for you? I think (based on protein numbers) we have pretty different approaches, but with enough keto people here maybe we can come up with some meal prep plans that make 3-3.5k more sustainable (both on an eating-as-a-grind and cooking-as-a-grind scale).

[Wilhelm]

Thanks for the reply.
I eat the same items all the time, and that's not going to change.
Only the amounts of the individual items will.

The idea of a bit of recomp is very apealing right now.
I'm almost certain losing a few hundred calories a day isn't going to set me back at this point.
At some point in 2020, i'll be skewing squat more towards strength anyway, possibly even doing S/P/S
I have used power days as a pre peak/peak thing for squat, by accelerating the rate of weight advance of the top singles, and making both weeks the same (heavier week 2 weights for both), as well as adding absolute numbers of singles per session.

I've also had to drop dips from my schedule due to some stress/overuse pain around my right upper pec and collar bone confluence.
So there's a reduction in needed recovery resources there.

I like to have a challenging weight for a projected squat opener, and then hitting it repeatedly over a long period,until it becomes less challenging, even hitting it Monday and Wednesday of meet week.
iirc, i would work up to a top single or even two, hitting that opener weight on the way up, and again on the way down after the top singles.

* I guess i'm counting on body fat stores being easily accessabile to make up the balance of energy if needed.
But honestly, i don't have a lot of choice, as i simply can't keep up this rate of intake.
Four months is a pretty good run.

[MPhelps]

Wilhelm, can you give us a rundown of what you eat in a day? @Wilhelm
I'm eating about 1600-1800 cals a day and it seems hard to add in any more calories to be honest.

[Wilhelm]

Wilhelm, can you give us a rundown of what you eat in a day? @Wilhelm
I'm eating about 1600-1800 cals a day and it seems hard to add in any more calories to be honest.

I have a quart jar and pint glass of water on the nightstand for when i wake.
I drink a third of the jar fresh, then add a rounded 1/2 tsp salt/lite salt mix.
Then 1/2 tsp glycine and appx. 3 grams creatine in the pint glass

Then i make two very large cups of coffee (1 full french press worth)
4Tbsp coconut oil and 4Tbsp heavy cream in each, whipped with a spring loaded hand whisk.
1,360 calories.
Then one large clove raw garlic chewed and chased with water.
Stimulates the bile (among other things)

Couple of hours later -
56 grams whey concentrate = 42.5g protein. I just switched to concentrate because it has more calories, and works out to actually be the same or cheaper per gram of actual protein than isolate.
2 Tbsp MCT oil
4Tbsp heavy cream
Rounded 1/2 tsp raw cacao powder, 1/2 tsp glycine
sometimes i throw in 1 Tbsp ground flax seeds.

D3, milti, and magnesium glycinate

On a non lifting day i have 4 ounces raw brocolli or two cups raw chard before the above shake.
On a lifting day i have the veggies later.

More salt water during the day.

Another shake 4 hours after the first. Same except only 1 Tbsp MCT oil.
D3 again and magnesium (last of the day)
And another one 4 hours after that

That's 3,250 calories, and that's my new basic target, possibly i'll even have days at 3,000 to 3,100.
I can't keep averaging 3,500+ any longer.
If i end up being a very light 93kg class, i'm fine with that.

Other things i eat, but not every single day, are free range eggs with butter (and sometimes cream cheese), Salmon, and high cacao content dark chocolate.
I tried using peanut butter in the shakes, but it doesn't work well for me.

Whoops, also had 1 ounce cream cheese for that calorie total.
Normally i'd have it on Wassa, but we didn't have any in the house today.

Oh yeah, i recently have been taking a break from avocados, but plan on using them again.
I just put them in a little mini blender, and then into the shakes.
It's hard to get a week's worth and not have them turn various kinds of bad by the end.
I really need to start using them again for the omega 3.

[MPhelps]

Thanks for the writeup. So you don't eat much solid food everyday then? Not judging, but it seems like I'd have problems with satiety.

I'm doing 5 eggs and some canned fish for lunch and beef for dinner. Nuts, sauerkraut and olives for snacks. 2 TBS MCT in my coffee. Salt and potassium in my water and on my food. Still only about 1900 calories.

Peanuts, soy, dairy and grains seem to be my bugaboos.

[Wilhelm]

Yeah, i was eating eggs pretty much everyday to get to 3,500+ calories.
Was definitely not enjoying them at that rate.

[Wilhelm]

Drove downstate today.
Had one bite of the wife's Whopper with cheese, and an entire 74% cacao chocolate bar for 590 calories.
Ended up the day with 53 grams of carbs.
Closest thing to a cheat day since i started over three years ago.

[MPhelps]

How do you feel?

I've done a couple of training sessions under 30 carbs for the day now. I feel good. I notice I feel like I have less uphill power on skis, but other than that, no difference. I think I may have been sort of fat adapter already. I've never been huge on pre workout or intra workout carbs (I can't say peri-workout, it's pretentious).

Beef liver cooked in beef fat, five fried eggs, kale and sauerkraut for dinner. With tons of Na and K salts. I think it was the best meal I've had in years.

[Wilhelm]

How do you feel?

I've done a couple of training sessions under 30 carbs for the day now. I feel good. I notice I feel like I have less uphill power on skis, but other than that, no difference. I think I may have been sort of fat adapter already. I've never been huge on pre workout or intra workout carbs (I can't say peri-workout, it's pretentious).

Beef liver cooked in beef fat, five fried eggs, kale and sauerkraut for dinner. With tons of Na and K salts. I think it was the best meal I've had in years.

I feel fine.
The smallish bite of Whopper was yummy, and was plenty.
Got a little onion and tomato in it too.
Had a little rush from the chocolate, even though it wasn't really much sugar.

I have been up since 3:40 am, and it's 8pm, but i need to make it to 10 before i go to sleep, otherwise i'll be up at 2 or 3.

[5hout]

That's a pretty efficient meal plan, easy to shop for and well adapted for time efficiency. That's the killer for me, I think it takes about 50% too much time and too many pots to cook fancy foods on keto, so I end up just eating meats/shakes and hotsauce during the week, maybe some salads M/Tu/We or soups/ketomonstermash.

One thing I've made before that was amazing was keto chili, 2-4 kinds of meats (80/20 beef, pork (home ground), venison, cubed beef, shredded chicken) all browned (not just cooked, but browned). Drain most of the fat off, add in some really good, gelatinous beef or chicken stock. Add ~2g of carbs per serving from tomato and garlic paste. Some anchovy paste or dried mushroom powder (or both!) and let it simmer. Correct the salt, a bit of pepper and you're good to go for a week or more. Adjust the mix of meats to get the fat content you want.

[MPhelps]

Getting less than 30 carbs a day for about a week now. Even less than 20. Worked out three days in a row, no issues. I actually feel less winded. I also feel like I go immediately from 0 to my targeted pace. I don't fade much during the intervals either. I usually end it when either the timer goes off or I feel like it. On carbs I feel like I have to gradually get up to pace, then I get pretty high, maybe too high. Then I drop off precipitously. I can still go, but I'm definitely dragging. On a graph it would look like a steep sided plateau on keto, and a mountain peak on carbs.


On another note, my MCT oil finally made it across NYS over the course of 4 days. Nice and tasteless. I don't think I like it on an empty, coffee-filled stomach. I got nauseous yesterday during my workout, and had loose BM twice. Like the kind that might end up in a shrubbery or trash can if I was in public.

[MPhelps]

MCT oil is fucking up my shit!

Wilhelm and everyone else is right. Do not go all in on this stuff!

I did a one meal a day yesterday, with black coffee and salt water as my only intake during the day. So I took 3 TBS MCT at once. I was squirting pee-poops soon afterwards. Clear, tasteless, not too viscous, full on bowel evacuator.

@Wilhelm how long did it take you to get used to it? And is it really anything more than coconut oil in liquid form? I can get coconut oil at the grocery store for pretty cheap (Crisco brand refined).

Significantly, I hiked a bit and then skied for an hour uphill yesterday about 20 hours into my fast with little to no difference in performance. I notice that I don't sweat much. I used to sweat like a hog, even in winter.

[Wilhelm]

You need to read up for yourself on the difference between MCT oil and coconut oil.
C8 (caprylic acid), C10 (Capric acid), and C12 (Lauric acid) are terms you need to understand.
The Piping Rock MCT oil is 40% C10, and 60% C8.

Refined coconut oil comes in different forms.

Absolutely avoid the hydrogenated stuff.
The countrylife link i posted earlier is the best price i've found online.
But it's flat rate $15 shipping under 50lbs, so i get 5 gallons to make it a decent deal.
Roughly 8lbs each.

I warned you about the MCT oil.

It's been a long time since i started, so i don't recall exactly how long it took me to get my tolerance.
But, if you start with a teaspoon at a time and work up, you'll be fine.
So day one a tsp twice or three times, and after a day or two of that 2 tsp at a time, etc...

I don't recall ever taking 3 Tbsp at once, but for sure i've done 2Tbsp 3 times in a day (so 6 total), for extended periods.

You need lots of water with it as well.
Your liver will be oxidizing it an hour or so after ingestion (possibly sooner, as it bypasses the gall bladder, but blood ketones will show a rise in an hour or 70 minutes after ingestion), and it needs water for that.

The gut wall will open up to draw more water in if it has to.
Either to be able to process it, or ultimately flush it out if it isn't able to.

This is not a good thing, because of increased chance that gut toxins can be released.
So take it slow, and get your water.

I drink a shit ton of water, and each shake is a quart as well, mostly water.

I have never had an issue except once with some candy i made.
Now that i think about it, the sweetener in that could easily have contributed.
I basically never use any sweetener, but the candy had a lot of erythritol in it.

My wife use that for sweetener, but as i said, i basically never use any sweetener in anything.

[JohnHelton]

I was squirting pee-poops soon afterwards. Clear, tasteless, not too viscous, full on bowel evacuator.

Fun visuals.

[cgeorg]

I did a one meal a day yesterday, with black coffee and salt water as my only intake during the day. So I took 3 TBS MCT at once. I was squirting pee-poops soon afterwards. Clear, tasteless, not too viscous, full on bowel evacuator.

Moderately curious about the protocol for collecting these data points.

[MPhelps]

To clarify, the MCT oil is clear tasteless and not too viscous. I didn't test my BM.

I'm definitely staying away from anything with the words hydrogenated in it.

I'm now curious about tallow and lard, if only because I seem to have issues with butter. It seems to be harder to come by than I thought it would be. I'd like to try it before buying online.

[5hout]

I'm now curious about tallow and lard, if only because I seem to have issues with butter. It seems to be harder to come by than I thought it would be. I'd like to try it before buying online.

If your grocery store has a Mexican food section it probably has lard, either boxed or tub. I like the boxed lard more, easier to cut chunks of it off when it's kept (for no reason at all, it's shelf stable) in the fridge.

Tallow is harder to find, I've made my own in the past and know a few local sources. Fancy butcher shops or healthfood stores sometimes have it. Afaik, if you buy bulk tallow sold as tallow and not suet it's just any fat from the animal. If you buy it marketed as suet then it's specifically fat from around the liver and kidneys. I'd only recommend making it if you are interested in making candles or soap and can get (or save) the fat chunks from breaking down larger cuts. If you have to buy it at 1 dollar/lbs it's 100% easier/cheaper to just order it.