Low-carb diets and ketosis

What's a carb? A car part? What's a macro? A type of camera lens?

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MPhelps
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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#81

Post by MPhelps » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:18 pm

Two grocery stores, no lard or tallow even in the small Mexican section. They have suet, but not sure if I want that much prep right now.

Also, I seem to tolerate MCT oil just fine if I take one TBS at a time with veggies.

Another question. It seems that to stay under 50g carbs, 100g protein and eat enough calories that I don't get hungry I pretty much have to add oil to everything. I'm eating bacon and 4 eggs for breakfast, salmon and liverwurst for lunch and beef liver for dinner. 0.5 cup of nuts. No dairy for me. I actually take TBS "shots" of MCT, olive and canola oil in addition to the small amounts I add to food. It doesn't bother me, but I haven't seen anything written about adding oil that way. Maybe because it's weird and gross to the uninitiated.

Coming from a lifetime of Low fat eating except for dairy, it's kind of unappetizing to have really oily food. Its almost easier to just take oil shots than eating added oil in my dishes. I'll try adding cheese in after I go 30 days without to see if I'm good with it.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#82

Post by priya31 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:25 pm

Excellent thread..!!!

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Wilhelm
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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#83

Post by Wilhelm » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:53 am

Yeah, i can hardly imagine getting 3,200 to 3,500+ calories without cream or butter.
My coffee is a huge part of getting there, and without cream, it would just be (lots of) coconut oil and black coffee.

Too weird, even for me.

Even one or two eggs have the capacity to carry 2 to 3 Tbsp butter.
Mixes in entirely if scrambled.
Also delicious.

I got avocados this week, and one fewer containers of heavy cream.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#84

Post by MPhelps » Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:01 pm

I don't like anything in my coffee. I also don't like coconut oil. I can tolerate liquid oils and animal fat, but coconut oil is just out. Could be because I had to eat a cold lunch in my vehicle the other day (20°F) and the coconut oil got hard as a rock. It was like eating a candle. A gross, coconut candle. Honestly I probably would've been more into eating a paraffin candle than coconut oil.


It's been 2 weeks. I'm going to give it another 2 and then reassess. I bumped up protein to 1g/lb lean body mass (by sight estimate). I feel better after dinner. Full and not irritable and nauseous.

My skiing performance has been lacking but it's literally the first week on snow. I have no energy for hills or speed. I've tried Google for any recommendations for keto for cross country skiing, but it's all endurance runners and cycling. As in no arm use and almost no core. Ski power is mostly abs and hips.

Targeted keto diet is looking good right now for the long haul. Just a little bit of sugar before exercise. Probably MCT mixed with 1/8 cup maple syrup. I'll stick it out for a couple more weeks. Like I said, bumping protein to the upper threshold that Phinney and Volek recommend seems to have helped.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#85

Post by Wilhelm » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:08 am

The only way i've found it works with less than melted/liquid coconut oil, is taking a Tbsp each PB and coconut oil.
It helps if the coconut oil is at least a decent room temp.

PB doesn't agree with me though, once i start eating it with any regularity or quantity.
But the above mentioned was tasty to me, once it melted together.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#86

Post by MPhelps » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:31 pm

Peanut butter turns me into a fart machine.

I've already fallen off the keto wagon. Not having any energy to ski is a deal breaker for me. Cross country skiing (not the shuffle step with poles out in front of you golf course skiing) is too energy dependant. It's not ultra running, where you are moving slowly for hours with little regard to technique.

I'm still eating low carb though. Between 100g-150g per day. I'm getting all of my carbs from vegetable and fruit sources. No grains, legumes, or white potatoes though. Sweet potatoes have always been fine for me. Carrots too. Berries are also fine. Apples seem to bug me, and bananas are kind of a scam. There's more potassium in a handful of kale than a banana.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#87

Post by Wilhelm » Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:47 pm

You weren't able to maintain a surplus doing keto with your food selection limits, right?

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#88

Post by MPhelps » Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:59 pm

I was probably at a bit over maintenance for the last few days, around 2800 cals and 40g carbs. But yeah, it was tough without dairy.

I'll probably give it a go for a longer period when I'm not skiing every day.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#89

Post by 5hout » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:37 am

Firearms hunting season opened on Friday, and so I did some Intermittent fasting Friday, Saturday and Sunday because I forgot to shop for food to take into my blind. Seems to have helped kick things along a bit. Weighed in at 192 today and yesterday. I think I'm going to go from 190g-200g protein per day to 120-150. 4-5 meals of 40-50g protein, even with use of shakes, has proven too annoying to hit day in, day out, when I'm also limiting calories (i.e. can't just pound down the best, fattiest cuts of meat). This might cause more muscle loss than ideal, but with Thanksgiving/Birth of Child/Festivus/Christmas coming up I need to drop the weight, if only in anticipation of loss of consistency.

Plus Wilhelm's result on a more reasonable protein level give me hope that my consumption was perhaps excessive. Maybe there is a side effect to keto/low carb where you can edge closer to .8g/lbs of bodyweight.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#90

Post by Wilhelm » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:35 am

Pretty sure .8g per lb bw is already bumped up a couple standard deviations (not sure i'm using that term with the proper wording)

.64 should be good is what i've been seeing as a more updated number.

There are probably some outliers who can get benefits at higher levels.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#91

Post by simonrest » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:13 pm

MPhelps wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:31 pm Not having any energy to ski is a deal breaker for me.
MPhelps wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:12 am Significantly, I hiked a bit and then skied for an hour uphill yesterday about 20 hours into my fast with little to no difference in performance.
yiew, time for a Fasting thread

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#92

Post by JFick » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:24 am

MPhelps wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:18 pm Two grocery stores, no lard or tallow even in the small Mexican section. They have suet, but not sure if I want that much prep right now.
Not sure if you are still looking at this stuff, but did you take a look Walmart? The one buy me sells grass fed beef tallow, lard, and duck fat in jars for a reasonable price. It's buy all the other oils. They also sell the same brand by me at Kroger and a local health food store.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#93

Post by MPhelps » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:37 pm

The fast felt fine. I think it was just after 2 weeks of that low amount of carbs, and trying to keep up with my skiing wasn't working.

I'm eating low-ish carbs for the amount of skiing I do, and have been feeling very good this week.

Takeaways for me: don't eat low fat, keep up salt intake, grains aren't a good staple food, and sugar should only be consumed before you're going to burn it. The only grains I'm eating are Wasa rye crispbread.

I'm feeling really good at about 60% fat, 20% carb, 20% protein macro ratio. Carbs are less than 200g and about 40g fiber. Basically berries, sweet potato and the wasa crackers for carbs. None for breakfast because I'm pretty lazy before lunch.

I don't get to Wal-Mart often, it's another town farther away from my nearest supermarket. I'm doing alright with bacon grease and beef fat and olive oil.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#94

Post by Mindtowork » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:10 am

So....what does this accomplish. ? Is it a way to regulate calories or is there truth to the notion that carbs have a great impact on bodyweight? I've long been of the notion that a calorie is a calorie

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#95

Post by JohnHelton » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:23 am

Mindtowork wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:10 am So....what does this accomplish. ? Is it a way to regulate calories or is there truth to the notion that carbs have a great impact on bodyweight? I've long been of the notion that a calorie is a calorie
Outside of autoimmune diseases, reduced inflammation, etc., I think the biggest advantage of a low-carb approach is the decrease in hunger compared to a low-fat approach to calorie restriction. That said, satiety can also be accomplished via high fiber and high protein, as is the RP diet approach. Ketosis can have additional advantages.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#96

Post by 5hout » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:24 am

Mindtowork wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:10 am So....what does this accomplish. ? Is it a way to regulate calories or is there truth to the notion that carbs have a great impact on bodyweight? I've long been of the notion that a calorie is a calorie
I'm not going to get into the "calorie is a calorie" debate, beyond: The human body is very complex, it has many gears. A calorie is a calorie, but you and I can do the exact same activity and I might burn 20% more (or less) calories than you. I might do the same activity 3 days in a row and burn very different numbers of calories each day. Calories in/calories out is a great first order estimate, but ultimately we have crap ways of measuring the calories out side of the equation (other than long term trends of the scale. It's largely irrelevant.

If you're gaining weight/over-weight, you need to eat less, over a long time, to stop/lose the weight.

If you're losing weight or failing to gain, you need to eat more, over a long time, to stop/gain weight.

The magic of keto, to me, is this: Once in ketosis and fat-adapted I found myself less hungry, less often, which lead to me naturally eating less and therefore losing weight. When I burn carbs I get hungry, ravenously hungry, ever 3-4 hours. When I'm in ketosis I might get hungry after a 18 hour fast. Weight control, when I only feel like eating 1-2 meals a day, is a lot easier than when I feel like eating 5 meals a day. Now recently I've been trying to cut, but also trying to eat many separate servings of protein a day. This has not worked for me, and I think I'm going back to 1-2 meals a day (while cutting).

So long story short, keto enables portion/meal control which enables weight control.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#97

Post by Mindtowork » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:34 am

5hout wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:24 am
Mindtowork wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:10 am So....what does this accomplish. ? Is it a way to regulate calories or is there truth to the notion that carbs have a great impact on bodyweight? I've long been of the notion that a calorie is a calorie
I'm not going to get into the "calorie is a calorie" debate, beyond: The human body is very complex, it has many gears. A calorie is a calorie, but you and I can do the exact same activity and I might burn 20% more (or less) calories than you. I might do the same activity 3 days in a row and burn very different numbers of calories each day. Calories in/calories out is a great first order estimate, but ultimately we have crap ways of measuring the calories out side of the equation (other than long term trends of the scale. It's largely irrelevant.

If you're gaining weight/over-weight, you need to eat less, over a long time, to stop/lose the weight.

If you're losing weight or failing to gain, you need to eat more, over a long time, to stop/gain weight.

The magic of keto, to me, is this: Once in ketosis and fat-adapted I found myself less hungry, less often, which lead to me naturally eating less and therefore losing weight. When I burn carbs I get hungry, ravenously hungry, ever 3-4 hours. When I'm in ketosis I might get hungry after a 18 hour fast. Weight control, when I only feel like eating 1-2 meals a day, is a lot easier than when I feel like eating 5 meals a day. Now recently I've been trying to cut, but also trying to eat many separate servings of protein a day. This has not worked for me, and I think I'm going back to 1-2 meals a day (while cutting).

So long story short, keto enables portion/meal control which enables weight control.
That makes sense. I do get hungrier when im on a high carb kick

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#98

Post by FredM » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:48 pm

Mindtowork wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:34 am
5hout wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:24 am
Mindtowork wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:10 am So....what does this accomplish. ? Is it a way to regulate calories or is there truth to the notion that carbs have a great impact on bodyweight? I've long been of the notion that a calorie is a calorie
I'm not going to get into the "calorie is a calorie" debate, beyond: The human body is very complex, it has many gears. A calorie is a calorie, but you and I can do the exact same activity and I might burn 20% more (or less) calories than you. I might do the same activity 3 days in a row and burn very different numbers of calories each day. Calories in/calories out is a great first order estimate, but ultimately we have crap ways of measuring the calories out side of the equation (other than long term trends of the scale. It's largely irrelevant.

If you're gaining weight/over-weight, you need to eat less, over a long time, to stop/lose the weight.

If you're losing weight or failing to gain, you need to eat more, over a long time, to stop/gain weight.

The magic of keto, to me, is this: Once in ketosis and fat-adapted I found myself less hungry, less often, which lead to me naturally eating less and therefore losing weight. When I burn carbs I get hungry, ravenously hungry, ever 3-4 hours. When I'm in ketosis I might get hungry after a 18 hour fast. Weight control, when I only feel like eating 1-2 meals a day, is a lot easier than when I feel like eating 5 meals a day. Now recently I've been trying to cut, but also trying to eat many separate servings of protein a day. This has not worked for me, and I think I'm going back to 1-2 meals a day (while cutting).

So long story short, keto enables portion/meal control which enables weight control.
That makes sense. I do get hungrier when im on a high carb kick
FWIW, IF or Time Restricted Feeding (TRF?) usually has the same benefit without the need to chug coconut oil or cover your vegetables in mayo and bacon.

It also has a lot more data to support it's health outcomes. And I don't mean scientific studies (though it has more of that too) -- humans have been doing IF since literally day one of our species and we're still here.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#99

Post by 5hout » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:25 pm

Yeah, tried IF w/o keto. All that happened was I spent the time between waking up and eating (almost the entire day) hungry and pissed. If it works for you more power to ya, but it's not for me. For me, carbs = fat, carbs + IF = fat, hungry and angry.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#100

Post by OrderInChaos » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:53 pm

MPhelps wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:37 pm grains aren't a good staple food
+1 from my time with true keto-style eating. Not eating that way now but the lesson that I can use various vegetables as a complement to a meat meal instead of needing a carb (abundant rice, endless potatoes, or toast/bread) to stuff in my face with each bit of protein at all my meals was a major revelation to get over the hump and start losing.

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