Low-carb diets and ketosis

[Wilhelm]

I will admit that getting into a calorie surplus on keto looks daunting.

I've got some tricks for that.

I can just about gaurantee you won't like them though.

[JohnHelton]

I will admit that getting into a calorie surplus on keto looks daunting.

I've got some tricks for that.

I can just about gaurantee you won't like them though.

I like meat, cheese, and eggs. Some vegetables. Truthfully, it is getting all the fats in that looks hard.

Do you think it really matters in a surplus if you are keto? I think it is very, very helpful in a deficit, but I don't know about a surplus. Most of the literature is about people losing weight, so it isn't usually addressed. I know from the New Atkins books, that they don't stress keto in maintenance. They just say find the level of carbs that you can tolerate without gaining weight.

[Wilhelm]

Do you think it really matters in a surplus if you are keto?

From that perspective, no.
If being in ketosis is what helps you maintain a deficit for weight loss, then it has served its purpose by the time you are ready for a surplus.

You get to avoid 1,000 calories a day in two big cups of coffee. Yay!

[platypus]

I will admit that getting into a calorie surplus on keto looks daunting.

I've got some tricks for that.

I can just about gaurantee you won't like them though.

I've tried drinking olive oil, 4/10 would not recommend.

[Wilhelm]

Lol, @platypus

@JohnHelton, it did just occur to me that training low carb , but not keto low, could be challenging.
I've never done it.

I'm sure you'll figure it out though.

[JohnHelton]

I think once you are keto-adapted, you can maintain some flexibility, dipping into ketosis at various points throughout the day / night as necessary plus continue to utilize fat reserves for energy. That is probably the natural human state.

[Wilhelm]

Yeah, i've read some about endurance athletes training for "on the fly" transitions.
I'm assuming that otherwise, you may have some lag depending on what's going on when you start your sessions.

But yeah, we adapt to what we do.

[JohnHelton]

If I do add carbs, it will probably be during lunch. That way I'm doing a 23 hour carb fast each day. It would also then fuel my afternoon workouts. Just thoughts.

[5hout]

@JohnHelton I was super lean at 165, but then I read this article about eating through the sticking points... Now I'm a bit fluffy at 190, but (to be fair) a hell of a lot stronger.

There are a good number of resources on cyclical keto diets and targeted keto diets. I've tried it, not really found super helpful on a day-to-day scale. Training as low-carb instead of keto is probably pretty rough at first, but so is (or at least was for me) training in ketosis.

I do miss bulletproof coffee protein shakes, but for me that's a bulking food not a maintenance/cut food.

[Wilhelm]

Nuckols addresses the conflict between nutrition for longevity vs nutrition for maximum jackdness at about 56:50
Namely (global~my addition) mTOR and igf levels being driven up vs being kept as low as possible.
https://www.sbspod.com/?__s=okqpanhzdonhgzk7poa1

This is a balance i attemt to strike with my diet and nutrition timing approach.
Figuring into this, is tissue specific igf1 can still be high, while global levels can be reduced, and mTOR can have rest time.

In any case, i do have an interest in being more jacked, while also attempting to have an increased health and life span.

I am glad he addressed this topic.

[JohnHelton]

@Wilhelm, I plan to give this one a listen. Right now I may be sacrificing general health a bit for maximum jackedness. I plan to get lean later. I know I grow eating carbs.

[Wilhelm]

Plus they are delicious.

[MPhelps]

I've been steering in this direction for a couple of weeks now... a year ago I was eating low fat, high carb plant based and virtually vegan. Lost 50 or so lbs and was doing a lot of LISS
When that stopped being tolerable, I added in more grains and standard American diet fare. Gained about 20 lbs back.

I've been having some skin reactions to foods (general itchiness after eating things. I'm not sure what, but I think it's dairy and white potatoes) and pretty much haven't had a solid BM in a long time. Google led me to Robb Wolf and Mark Sisson (again, I used to read his site years ago when I sort of did a paleo diet). I know both of them evolved from paleo/primal to more ketogenic.

So basically I've dropped all grains, all nightshades, all dairy and some other fruits and vegetables.

That leaves me with meat, sweet potatoes and maybe some fruit.

I can tolerate a lot of oil.

So my question for the keto guys is how many calories is OK in a day? I'm not trying to lose more weight per se. I'm down 8 lbs in a week already.

Is salt intake an issue? I'm adding ionized table salt to my meat and veggies.

Do I need fancy expensive oils, or is canola fine if I should add more calories? EVOO is kind of gross.

I think I have a definite issue with dairy, including butter, so that's a no go until I can sort this shit out.

I'm still able to hike and stuff so far (day 2 of low carbs after cutting out potatoes), so hopefully I'll see improvements with my skin and GI tract.

[Wilhelm]

I would stay away from canola oil. Pretty easy to read up on the manufacturing and downsides nutritionally.
And if you are doing mega amounts, i don't see that going well.

Also, i would get plenty of salt, at least for the first week or two if you are going full keto.

Personally, i treat the 2,300 mg recomendation as a minimum.
Too much is a problem, but too little is as well.
I start everyday drinking a third of a quart fresh water, then add a rounded 1/2 tsp salt to the rest.

Potassium can be a little challenging on keto, but i am very cautious with supplementation.
I mix light salt with regular salt.
https://www.mortonsalt.com/home-product ... mixture-2/

Whey has good potassium levels, and i get a lot of that.
Avocado does too, as do dark leafy greens.

[MPhelps]

Thanks for the info wilhelm.

I think that canola is a bad idea as well, since it's an industrial seed oil. It's just cheap and tasteless.

Sweet potato is pretty high in potassium.
Im going to try a primal thing like Mark Sisson and see if that clears up my issues. I'm going to gradually decrease carbs using clean sources like sweet potatoes, blueberries , carrots. I went from 110 carbs on Tuesday to 40 yesterday and I feel like shit this morning. So I'll just bump it down a bit week by week. On a positive note, I didn't have the itching last night.

[Wilhelm]

Thanks for the info wilhelm.

I think that canola is a bad idea as well, since it's an industrial seed oil. It's just cheap and tasteless.

Sweet potato is pretty high in potassium.
Im going to try a primal thing like Mark Sisson and see if that clears up my issues. I'm going to gradually decrease carbs using clean sources like sweet potatoes, blueberries , carrots. I went from 110 carbs on Tuesday to 40 yesterday and I feel like shit this morning. So I'll just bump it down a bit week by week. On a positive note, I didn't have the itching last night.

If and when you reintroduce grains, you might want to look at 100% rye bread.
My doctor (she does not do keto) related to me she was looking to improve a blood sugar metric during pregnancy, and she tested the difference between wheat and rye bread, and rye did have the claimed low glycemic response it is purported to.
Dramatically so in her case.

Most rye bread is actually wheat and rye though.
Cooking pasta al dente also reduces the glycemic load.

Not sure if this will be pertinent to you at some point, but perhaps.

Piping Rock has these 50% sales often, and that makes MCT oil more reasonable.
https://www.pipingrock.com/mct/mct-oil- ... ottle-6231

If you use it, start with small amounts and work up.
Take it with plenty of water. I use it in my shakes, and i drink tons of water as a matter of course.
I'm down to between 2 and 4 TBsp a day these days. Most often only two. Just to keep cost down.
Coconut oil can be used in cooking for added calories.
I find scrambled eggs incrporate it well.

[MPhelps]

Thanks for the info wilhelm.

I think that canola is a bad idea as well, since it's an industrial seed oil. It's just cheap and tasteless.

Sweet potato is pretty high in potassium.
Im going to try a primal thing like Mark Sisson and see if that clears up my issues. I'm going to gradually decrease carbs using clean sources like sweet potatoes, blueberries , carrots. I went from 110 carbs on Tuesday to 40 yesterday and I feel like shit this morning. So I'll just bump it down a bit week by week. On a positive note, I didn't have the itching last night.

If and when you reintroduce grains, you might want to look at 100% rye bread.
My doctor (she does not do keto) related to me she was looking to improve a blood sugar metric during pregnancy, and she tested the difference between wheat and rye bread, and rye did have the claimed low glycemic response it is purported to.
Dramatically so in her case.

Most rye bread is actually wheat and rye though.
Cooking pasta al dente also reduces the glycemic load.

Not sure if this will be pertinent to you at some point, but perhaps.

Yeah, I've tried to find real rye bread in the grocery store, but it's all just wheat bread with some rye flour in it. I have a bunch of Wasa crispbread that will likely be my first foray back into grains if I feel like it.

[Wilhelm]

Love Wassa.

*I just added an MCT oil link in my last post.

[5hout]

Salt:
Mixed lite-salt and regular salt, or mixed lite-salt and no-salt are great go-tos, depending on what I'm eating. If I've been eating processed sausages and similar I tend to eat more no-salt, figuring that I'm getting my regular sodium from the processed food.

I've recently picked up some magnesium citrate again, had been using other forms, I think I prefer the citrate. I do one 125mg pill before bed, 30% of daily value, plus lots of spinach and other dark green veggies. I might up this to one pill in the morning with my first food of the day and the bedtime pill.

It's hard for me to tell if I'm doing good or bad on the electrolytes, but since I've not seen any symptoms of low or high salt/electrolyte issues I figure that it is working. I try not to go over 50% of recommended daily value from supplements, figuring that if they work at all it's more of a back-stop in case of a deficiency than a way to hit my numbers.

I maintain weight at ~1850 calories per day, 180-200g protein, 20-30g total carb, rest fat. If I eat much under that I slowly lose weight, and more I tend to gain.

[JFick]

@MPhelps



Dr Phinney has great info on low carb diets.

Supplementing salt is essential. Canola oil is probably the least offensive of seed oils but should be avoided when possible. Calories are still calories. You need to eat enough to maintain your weight if that's your goal.

Have you looked into elimination diets? This would help you isolate the sources of your issues. Simplest one is to eat only beef, salt, and water for a couple weeks and then add foods one at a time to see how your body reacts to them.