Low-carb diets and ketosis

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#121

Post by mbasic » Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:23 pm

Hardartery wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:13 pm
mbasic wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:43 pm I was attempting another foray into intermittent fasting (16:8) but the wife starting reading about keto ... and I guess now we are doing The Ketos.

Those two things seem to go hand and hand (well, getting started with Keto anyways).

We slowly upped the amount of time fasting, and simultaneously doing low-carb.
She had a nice colorful pee strip, after fasting 20 hrs, doing some pelaton workouts, and eating almost-no-carb meal either side of the fast.
I've yet to make a dent in a pee strip.

She has gone all coocoo with it. Since has bought the blood-meter. Listens to podcasts all the time, etc.

When she first hit higher range on the pee strip, she kept texting me in the car to tell me about it....one sentence at a time.
My truck's bluetooth text ringer constantly going off multiple times in a row ...
....my kid sitting in the back seat asks, "Who's texting you all the time?"
Me: "Its your mom"
Kid: "What's wrong?"
Me: "Mom is in keto finally."
kid: "Where the heck is keto?"
LOL. The pee strips are not particularly reliable indicators, but good for you guys. I've been keto for several months now and will soon transition to low carb for a while. Bigger guys take a lot longer to flush out the system, but if you're hitting it right you should lose a solid 6-8 poiunds of water as you flush out and get into ketosis. It can take up to three weeks though. Jerry Brainum has some informative Youtubes on the subject. He's a little dry, but provides a lot of info.
Actually, I think I was already there once about 10 years ago.

My brother brought me a Dr.Eades Protein Power book which espoused the virtues of a low carb diet....which I bought hook, line, and sinker.
I went from about 235 down to 187 ish in about 2 months!
For the first two weeks, I literally ate less than 15g of carbs a day.
I slowly ratchetted up carbs up to ~50g/day the over the next 3-4 weeks.

IIRC, the Eades book was more about insulin being the enemy. It was a long time ago.
I don't remember too much about ketosis being mentioned, and/or any of the benfits of a ketogenic diet in there (maybe it was an real old publication when I got it) such a atophagy, brain stuff, etc.

I think I can do it again.
My wife, she's a carb addict ...
I just eat too many total calories and have gotten fat.
I have no problem NOT eating grains, breads, rice, noodles, sweets, etc.
I might have been known to eat half a jar of organic almond butter at one sitting though.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#122

Post by Hardartery » Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:34 pm

mbasic wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:23 pm
Hardartery wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:13 pm
mbasic wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:43 pm I was attempting another foray into intermittent fasting (16:8) but the wife starting reading about keto ... and I guess now we are doing The Ketos.

Those two things seem to go hand and hand (well, getting started with Keto anyways).

We slowly upped the amount of time fasting, and simultaneously doing low-carb.
She had a nice colorful pee strip, after fasting 20 hrs, doing some pelaton workouts, and eating almost-no-carb meal either side of the fast.
I've yet to make a dent in a pee strip.

She has gone all coocoo with it. Since has bought the blood-meter. Listens to podcasts all the time, etc.

When she first hit higher range on the pee strip, she kept texting me in the car to tell me about it....one sentence at a time.
My truck's bluetooth text ringer constantly going off multiple times in a row ...
....my kid sitting in the back seat asks, "Who's texting you all the time?"
Me: "Its your mom"
Kid: "What's wrong?"
Me: "Mom is in keto finally."
kid: "Where the heck is keto?"
LOL. The pee strips are not particularly reliable indicators, but good for you guys. I've been keto for several months now and will soon transition to low carb for a while. Bigger guys take a lot longer to flush out the system, but if you're hitting it right you should lose a solid 6-8 poiunds of water as you flush out and get into ketosis. It can take up to three weeks though. Jerry Brainum has some informative Youtubes on the subject. He's a little dry, but provides a lot of info.
Actually, I think I was already there once about 10 years ago.

My brother brought me a Dr.Eades Protein Power book which espoused the virtues of a low carb diet....which I bought hook, line, and sinker.
I went from about 235 down to 187 ish in about 2 months!
For the first two weeks, I literally ate less than 15g of carbs a day.
I slowly ratchetted up carbs up to ~50g/day the over the next 3-4 weeks.

IIRC, the Eades book was more about insulin being the enemy. It was a long time ago.
I don't remember too much about ketosis being mentioned, and/or any of the benfits of a ketogenic diet in there (maybe it was an real old publication when I got it) such a atophagy, brain stuff, etc.

I think I can do it again.
My wife, she's a carb addict ...
I just eat too many total calories and have gotten fat.
I have no problem NOT eating grains, breads, rice, noodles, sweets, etc.
I might have been known to eat half a jar of organic almond butter at one sitting though.
I'm down from 296 to 265 this morning. I need to be under 265, it affects my blood pressure and I have no need competitively or otherwise to be that heavy. If I ever do a comp again, it would likely be a Static Monsters and I don't need to be that heavy for a 2 event thing. I can probably be just as strong under 265 for that. I love carbs, I have only ever had "Enough" sugar once, and the feeling passed pretty qickly, but literally oll of the men in my father's family are type 2 diabetics so keto makes mre sense for me. I don't really buy into the whole keto line, I think it really jut comes down to lower calories per day by cutting carbs. I might be known to eat 1/2 gallons of ice cream in a sitting and still interested in a doughnut or two, but I'm fine running under 25 gcarbs a day so far.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#123

Post by mbasic » Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:42 pm

Hardartery wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:34 pm I don't really buy into the whole keto line, I think it really just comes down to lower calories per day by cutting carbs.
Yeah, this was my thinking as well^ ... kinda the BBM thinking that the diet is only working because ultimately lower-calories and you are able to keep compliance for [reasons] ... and its not really because of the magical ketones....

.... up until the wife started presenting me with more of the current research. Now I'm not so sure its just the calories thing alone.

She's more interested in the autophagy / cancer fighting aspects rather than the weight loss effects, although those two things go hand in hand.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#124

Post by Hardartery » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:41 pm

Keto diets are good for diabetes and epilepsy. Past that, I am a bit of a skeptic. I follow the biology behind why it should theoretically make it possible to burn fat even in a surplus while keto, but in practice it doesn't really seem to work that way exactly. I think that it may be having that "Reverse dieting" effect of raising my metabolism as I lose, so that hopefully I can eat more post diet and maintain.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#125

Post by FredM » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:47 pm

mbasic wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:42 pm
Hardartery wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:34 pm I don't really buy into the whole keto line, I think it really just comes down to lower calories per day by cutting carbs.
Yeah, this was my thinking as well^ ... kinda the BBM thinking that the diet is only working because ultimately lower-calories and you are able to keep compliance for [reasons] ... and its not really because of the magical ketones....

.... up until the wife started presenting me with more of the current research. Now I'm not so sure its just the calories thing alone.

She's more interested in the autophagy / cancer fighting aspects rather than the weight loss effects, although those two things go hand in hand.
I think the benefits observed have more to do with eating natural foods over heavily processed/engineered foods. Especially as they relate to cancer. Beyond the compliance/calorie benefit BBM and SBS discuss, I think Keto diets tend to transition people to eating natural foods. Trading oats for nuts probably isn't going to give you a health benefit, but transitioning from skittles to nuts definitely will. Frankly I think this is the main reason for the satiating effect of keto as well. After eating a lot more "whole"/natural foods for the last few months, I notice when I eat some heavily processed food, I'm all of the sudden starving, almost regardless of how much I just ate.

I think keto is a worthwhile tool but would seriously doubt it's benefit or even general healthiness long term. It makes a lot of sense that we can do really well on nothing but nuts if you think about how we evolved, but it was never used as a long term diet, which makes me pretty skeptical. At a basic level, I think the entire ketone mechanism is meant to make you better at finding real food.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#126

Post by mbasic » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:05 am

FredM wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:47 pm
mbasic wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:42 pm
Hardartery wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:34 pm I don't really buy into the whole keto line, I think it really just comes down to lower calories per day by cutting carbs.
Yeah, this was my thinking as well^ ... kinda the BBM thinking that the diet is only working because ultimately lower-calories and you are able to keep compliance for [reasons] ... and its not really because of the magical ketones....

.... up until the wife started presenting me with more of the current research. Now I'm not so sure its just the calories thing alone.

She's more interested in the autophagy / cancer fighting aspects rather than the weight loss effects, although those two things go hand in hand.
I think the benefits observed have more to do with eating natural foods over heavily processed/engineered foods. Especially as they relate to cancer. Beyond the compliance/calorie benefit BBM and SBS discuss, I think Keto diets tend to transition people to eating natural foods. Trading oats for nuts probably isn't going to give you a health benefit, but transitioning from skittles to nuts definitely will. Frankly I think this is the main reason for the satiating effect of keto as well. After eating a lot more "whole"/natural foods for the last few months, I notice when I eat some heavily processed food, I'm all of the sudden starving, almost regardless of how much I just ate.
I totally agree with this^ ... And I think this is a lot of the same mechanism behind vegetarianism. People simply become aware of what they are eating more; eating less garbage and more 'whole foods'; less fast food & TV dinners; etc. Although is seems the processed-food-corporations have stepped in to make meatless garbage food now.

...but, I think in my case (because I have to make it about me) I was eating fairly healthy before in 2010 when I went ultra-low-carb ... and I seemed to loose a bunch of weight. Sure there was less calories, but I had tried calorie restricted diet before back then with little success. And now, same thing .... I've tried a couple of diets lately with little success of shedding any weight.
I think keto is a worthwhile tool but would seriously doubt it's benefit or even general healthiness long term. It makes a lot of sense that we can do really well on nothing but nuts if you think about how we evolved, but it was never used as a long term diet, which makes me pretty skeptical. At a basic level, I think the entire ketone mechanism is meant to make you better at finding real food.
I don't like any of the "well, we adapted and evolved with a eating behavior of [X] ". Doesn't mean that was optimal. Just means we are able to do it.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#127

Post by 5hout » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:10 am

FredM wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:47 pm I think Keto diets tend to transition people to eating natural foods. Trading oats for nuts probably isn't going to give you a health benefit, but transitioning from skittles to nuts definitely will. Frankly I think this is the main reason for the satiating effect of keto as well. After eating a lot more "whole"/natural foods for the last few months, I notice when I eat some heavily processed food, I'm all of the sudden starving, almost regardless of how much I just ate.

I think keto is a worthwhile tool but would seriously doubt it's benefit or even general healthiness long term. It makes a lot of sense that we can do really well on nothing but nuts if you think about how we evolved, but it was never used as a long term diet, which makes me pretty skeptical. At a basic level, I think the entire ketone mechanism is meant to make you better at finding real food.
Finally back on the keto train *(9 days in ketosis) after a 1.25 years of carbs.

I think a lot of the satiety benefits are 2 fold. 1st, you're changing (likely) from processed and easily digestible high GI foods to low GI foods that reduce blood sugar spike/crash, feel full longer (different digestion pattern) and (may) have different ghrelin/leptin profiles associated with their consumption (there may be other biological effects in play). 2nd, cultural/societal factors. There aren't widely available, and cheap, keto snacks the same way there are chips and candy. Sure you can hunt them down, but they are often far more expensive, taste like shit, require special ordering or special handling.

The 1st set is well discussed, but I've come to view the 2nd set as just as important. The more "keto" candy/snacks/ice cream I keep around, the more my diet came to resemble a SAD, but even worse b/c it was extra high calorie. Now I know to keep a very limited set of snacks on hand, and otherwise rely on cooking to gate my eating. I suspect if you found a way to increase the SAD price for someone, and then made them cook all their meals from scratch, they'd quickly move to a healthy weight.*


*This is not a suggestion or endorsement of any government planning.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#128

Post by FredM » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:28 am

mbasic wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:05 am
I totally agree with this^ ... And I think this is a lot of the same mechanism behind vegetarianism. People simply become aware of what they are eating more; eating less garbage and more 'whole foods'; less fast food & TV dinners; etc. Although is seems the processed-food-corporations have stepped in to make meatless garbage food now.

...but, I think in my case (because I have to make it about me) I was eating fairly healthy before in 2010 when I went ultra-low-carb ... and I seemed to loose a bunch of weight. Sure there was less calories, but I had tried calorie restricted diet before back then with little success. And now, same thing .... I've tried a couple of diets lately with little success of shedding any weight.
Yeah, I think there are people who do better on low carb and people that do better on high carb (fiber/whole foods). I've tried both and I'm in the latter. So is my wife. I know multiple people who are definitely in the former. At the end of the day, being less weight is the healthiest thing you can do (if you're unhealthily fat) so whatever gets you and keeps you there is the winner.
I don't like any of the "well, we adapted and evolved with a eating behavior of [X] ". Doesn't mean that was optimal. Just means we are able to do it.
Sure. But I tend to find "what we evolved to do" a better heuristic than following studies paid for by corporations selling food or academics motivated by getting published. Especially because we still understand very little about the human body in the scheme of things. Evolution is far from a global maximum, but it's usually a pretty safe local maximum. The ketone mechanism could absolutely be a happy accident and have nothing to do with short term survival on a high fat diet, but I think it's more likely it emerged as a survival mechanism to migrate with a bunch of nuts in your pocket before finding a new geography with better food sources.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#129

Post by Wilhelm » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:38 am

FredM wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:28 am likely it emerged as a survival mechanism to migrate with a bunch of nuts in your pocket before finding a new geography with better food sources.
Something tells me nuts would be pretty fucking high on the list of better foods gathering/scavenging/hunting peoples would compile. :lol:
Pemmican even moreso for travel and periods of food scarcity.
And there were peoples whose yearly food gathering cycle revolved around the run of small fatty fish coming up the rivers.

Putting on a lot of extra muscle was not really a good survival mechanism in pre agricultural times.
Efficient fueling was.

This is not to say early people were counting carbs lul.
But a preference for fatty, energy dense foods is a good strategy.
Last edited by Wilhelm on Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#130

Post by Hardartery » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:53 am

FredM wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:47 pm
mbasic wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:42 pm
Hardartery wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:34 pm I don't really buy into the whole keto line, I think it really just comes down to lower calories per day by cutting carbs.
Yeah, this was my thinking as well^ ... kinda the BBM thinking that the diet is only working because ultimately lower-calories and you are able to keep compliance for [reasons] ... and its not really because of the magical ketones....

.... up until the wife started presenting me with more of the current research. Now I'm not so sure its just the calories thing alone.

She's more interested in the autophagy / cancer fighting aspects rather than the weight loss effects, although those two things go hand in hand.
I think the benefits observed have more to do with eating natural foods over heavily processed/engineered foods. Especially as they relate to cancer. Beyond the compliance/calorie benefit BBM and SBS discuss, I think Keto diets tend to transition people to eating natural foods. Trading oats for nuts probably isn't going to give you a health benefit, but transitioning from skittles to nuts definitely will. Frankly I think this is the main reason for the satiating effect of keto as well. After eating a lot more "whole"/natural foods for the last few months, I notice when I eat some heavily processed food, I'm all of the sudden starving, almost regardless of how much I just ate.

I think keto is a worthwhile tool but would seriously doubt it's benefit or even general healthiness long term. It makes a lot of sense that we can do really well on nothing but nuts if you think about how we evolved, but it was never used as a long term diet, which makes me pretty skeptical. At a basic level, I think the entire ketone mechanism is meant to make you better at finding real food.
Eating nuts and staying below 25g of carbs a day is pretty much impossible. IF I have any nuts, it's a very tiny serving of almonds, becasue carbs. Protein has a very satieting effect in general. Four eggs with a slice of muenster feels like I ate something. There is a big intial weight loss that is all water. There are two water molecules for every gycogen molecule that you store in your body, so as you get into ketosis and flush the glycogen your body sheds the water attached to it. The lack of insulin spikes helps to smooth out your response and increase insulin sensitivity over time - which is also good for fat loss on it's own as a separate mechanism. That's why Metformin is so popular as a body hacking drug and used by BBers along with insulin. I have been on an essentially no processed foods diet for several years, and switching to that did nothing for fat loss for me. I was no leaner from that than when I ate ice cream and iced honey buns on a regular basis. I almost have to force myself to eat on keto, because I don't get as hungry. Steel cut oats never did that for me. I'm living on eggs, chicken ground beef, lettuce and coffee. That's dropped me 30 pounds since I started. It's working better than the tuna diet I did to cut down to the U105 class (I was 285 before that cut).
The argument that the body has a preference for fat as a fuel source and a disinclination to store slowly metabolized protein would theoretically mean that you could build muscle while cutting fat and do it while not in a deficit. That's a bit of a holy grail. It would mean that the scale wouldn't move but you simply recomp to be leaner and more muscular at the same weight. I think that a caloric surplus still kills fat loss, even in ketosis.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#131

Post by Wilhelm » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:56 am

Hardartery wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:53 am I think that a caloric surplus still kills fat loss, even in ketosis.
Yes.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#132

Post by Hardartery » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:01 am

Wilhelm wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:38 am
FredM wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:28 am likely it emerged as a survival mechanism to migrate with a bunch of nuts in your pocket before finding a new geography with better food sources.
Something tells me nuts would be pretty fucking high on the list of better foods gathering/scavenging/hunting peoples would compile. :lol:
Pemmican even moreso for travel and periods of food scarcity.
And there were peoples whose yearly food gathering cycle revolved around the run of small fatty fish coming up the rivers.

Putting on a lot of extra muscle was not really a good survival mechanism in pre agricultural times.
Efficient fueling was.

This is not to say early people were counting carbs lul.
But a preference for fatty, energy dense foods is a good strategy.
There is a distinct lack of evidence for any actual "Pre-agricultural times". There is evidence of grain in cultivation in the earliest of early settlements discovered, and obvious signs of non-hand to mouth living. It's a great theory that every one accepts readily. But it's pure supposition. People accept Evolution as a thing, and then feels that the whole pre-agriculture thing must therefore have been. They haven't dug that evidence up. I don't believe for a second that it ever happened.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#133

Post by Wilhelm » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:05 am

Ok, fine.
So people had gardens of yams.

I think you are intentionally missing/dismissing my point by way of nit-picking.
have human nutrition patterns changed drastically over time?
Clearly fucking yes.
Hardartery wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:01 am
There is evidence of grain in cultivation in the earliest of early settlements discovered, and obvious signs of non-hand to mouth living.
Also, permanent "settlements" were not always a thing either.

Coastal peoples were often happy to remain in one location because of the abundance of varied foods.

And i have already referenced non hand to mouth living in the case of a yearly harvest of specific small fatty fish.
*Le sigh*

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#134

Post by FredM » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:36 am

Wilhelm wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:38 am
FredM wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:28 am likely it emerged as a survival mechanism to migrate with a bunch of nuts in your pocket before finding a new geography with better food sources.
Something tells me nuts would be pretty fucking high on the list of better foods gathering/scavenging/hunting peoples would compile. :lol:
Hardartery wrote:
Eating nuts and staying below 25g of carbs a day is pretty much impossible
You guys are taking my quote way too literally. Also, early humans obviously didn't eat 200g of protein a day (or meat anything resembling regularly -- with a few exceptions, granted). Nor did they even necessarily eat every day. My point still stands -- they were more likely going into ketosis with 10% of the calories as you guys, sure, but it likely wasn't a permanent state. Which doesn't prove being in ketosis forever is bad for your health, obviously, but again -- I personally wouldn't try keto long term because of this.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#135

Post by Wilhelm » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:37 am

Deez nuts

Wilhelm wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:38 am This is not to say early people were counting carbs lul.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#136

Post by mbasic » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:53 am

FredM wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:36 am You guys are taking my quote way too literally. Also, early humans obviously didn't eat 200g of protein a day (or meat anything resembling regularly -- with a few exceptions, granted). Nor did they even necessarily eat every day. My point still stands -- they were more likely going into ketosis with 10% of the calories as you guys, sure, but it likely wasn't a permanent state. Which doesn't prove being in ketosis forever is bad for your health, obviously, but again -- I personally wouldn't try keto long term because of this.
Not a permanent state ... but maybe 3 months at a time?

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#137

Post by Hardartery » Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:06 am

Wilhelm wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:05 am Ok, fine.
So people had gardens of yams.

I think you are intentionally missing/dismissing my point by way of nit-picking.
have human nutrition patterns changed drastically over time?
Clearly fucking yes.
Hardartery wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:01 am
There is evidence of grain in cultivation in the earliest of early settlements discovered, and obvious signs of non-hand to mouth living.
Also, permanent "settlements" were not always a thing either.

Coastal peoples were often happy to remain in one location because of the abundance of varied foods.

And i have already referenced non hand to mouth living in the case of a yearly harvest of specific small fatty fish.
*Le sigh*
I think the only serious changes would be the very recent emergence of highly processed foods. Everything else goes back as far as evidence of humans. My point being, there is no actual reason to think that keto, or carnivore, or whatever fad has some unique benefit because it better meets some invented notion of evolutionarily derived benefit. We are omnivores and function on a variety of diets without major issue. If keto works better for me, I don't think there is any truth or reason to apply some baseless logic to it about adaptation. And in fact, I think that there is actually a much better argument to be made that people would have been more likely to have a mostly plant based diet in early history. It's a lot easier to pick fruit or gnaw on a root vegetable than to hunt and process live animals that can fight back or run away. I'm not trying to dismoss your point, or attack you. I definitely have a problem with this recent (Last 10-20 years) notion of evolutionary eating patterns based purely on conjecture so that someone can sell me a diet. I am currenty on a keto diet, and derive certain benefits from it. Someone else may not derive those benefits for individual biological reasons. End of point. Not meant to be personal.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#138

Post by Allentown » Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:07 am

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQwfLZDAHs ... =copy_link

Possibly don't do Keto if you are looking to increase or maintain LBM?

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#139

Post by mbasic » Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:30 am

Does anyone have any material with regards to BBM's take on Keto (along side with strength training)?

From what I remember, they seemed sorta against it.



I like the underhanded job there at "using other things" (steroids/PEDs) @ 25:00.
I mean sure, that's a possibility sure, but that reason could be applied to any of these dieting/fitness modalities.

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Re: Low-carb diets and ketosis

#140

Post by mbasic » Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:25 am

Allentown wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:07 am https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQwfLZDAHs ... =copy_link

Possibly don't do Keto if you are looking to increase or maintain LBM?
1 - meta study ... with only n=288 spread out over 13 trials/studies?

2 - [TL;DR "water is wet"] I wonder how they measured LBM in all 13 of the studies?

Every knows the first thing to go is a shit-ton of water weight when embarking on one of these diets.
People often bitch at the lowcarb-ers: "yOu ArE nOT LoOSiNg tHat muCH fAt!!! iTs AlL wATeR WeiGHT yOU DumB A$S !!!111!"

IIRC, water is a big part of muscle, because muscle stored glycogen.
So I might be wrong, but it wouldn't be surprising if your MEASURABLE muscle mass went down on a Dexa scan or whatever,
because glycogen reserves are being depleted.
I don't think all that translates to you loosing actually muscle contractile units(cells) or whatever.
Fat cells contain mostly fat, its basically oil IIRC.
Most of animal body water is contained in various body fluids. These include intracellular fluid; extracellular fluid; plasma; interstitial fluid; and transcellular fluid.[5] Water is also contained inside organs, in gastrointestinal, cerebrospinal, peritoneal, and ocular fluids. Adipose tissue contains about 10% of water, while muscle tissue contains about 75%.[6][7]
Being that inherit water loss is a ubiquitous physiological effect for low-barb/keto diets .... it wouldn't be surprising if every one of the 13 studies is kinda fucked up in that same way.

Maybe I'm wrong.

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