Squat asymmetry/lateral hip shift

[DannyP]

I've always had issues with my squat in regards to:

-Hips shifting laterally on the ascent
-Feet angling outwards at different angles
-Knee cave (though that used to be worse)

What I'm trying to figure out is whether it's an issue of form or physiology. I try to stand with my feet angled as "naturally" as I can for any given stance width.

Anyways, this was from today; apologies for the crooked angle and ass sweat:



Do I just need to try and force myself to have a more symmetrical stance? I tend to do a decent job of "knees over toes" on the descent, but they don't stay that way on the way back up.

[Hanley]

What I'm trying to figure out is whether it's an issue of form or physiology.

You don't seem to have a dramatic lateral shift on the eccentric. Seems unlikely that this is a (wholly) structural issue.

[blowdpanis]

As a person with a retroverted right hip and a history of lower body asymmetry in squats and deadlifts, I sympathize with this post.

If you pause repeatedly as you approach the bottom of the squat, you can see that your eccentric actually does have a "hip shift" of sorts in that you're favoring your right leg and your squat goes down and to the right. On the surface this could point to a leg length discrepancy that's appreciable enough to show up visually, in this case your right leg would be the short leg. Should this actually be addressed/fixed? If it's not causing pain, that's tough to say, as you can see the biomechanical rationale of doing so, but adding worry/etc. over perceived imperfection can wind up backfiring and actually create problems where there were none previously.

Out of curiosity, does the hip shift on the concentric become more pronounced the heavier the weight is? As Hanley said, if this is primarily a load-related thing, there could be some room for improvement here. The easiest solution is to find as symmetric a setup as possible and then enforce "good enough" symmetry for most of your work sets, but the downside to this approach is that, when attempting to actually get stronger, it's difficult to avoid heavy/hard enough work where you won't wind up compensating to some degree.

There are basically three things you can modify in cases of a leg length discrepancy (or other hip-related abnormality) if you go the OCD route of trying to fix this: 1) elevating one of your feet (the short side) with a shim 2) staggering your stance ever so slightly and 3) playing with the degree of hip rotation from left to right, e.g. having more foot flare (and external rotation) on one side vs. the other. In my case, due to my retroverted right hip, my left leg acts short, but if I stagger my stance slightly such that my right leg is behind by like a half inch, that seems to do about as good a job as any combination of things I can do to level out my pelvis/spine in a squat or deadlift.

I've always been curious what Jordan or Austin would say in these cases, though. Years ago Austin told me that my asymmetry wasn't significant enough that I should worry about it, but I simultaneously had a history of hip/sciatic issues which kind of made me skeptical that I should just ignore it. It's tricky, and I've seen Jordan talk about leg length discrepancy where he says something to the effect that, within a half inch or so, leg length discrepancy seems a poor predictor of back pain, but past some threshold, ~.75"? or something, it actually does seem to relate. Like, at some point, gross asymmetry probably has some impact on wear and tear and pain, you'd think, despite the biopsychosocial model making pain's relationship to structural problems a lot more abstract.

[iamsmu]

This keeps coming up. The asymmetry was much more pronounced on the second rep (though still mild). I bet it would have been even more so on a third. Still mild.

Is a leg length discrepancy the best answer?

Does it show up on warm up sets or with lighter weights until later reps? I wonder if this kind of thing is more the product of a strength difference between legs.

I find myself doing this sometimes. I'm pretty confident that my legs are the same length. Though I'll do some measuring to the best of my ability later. My knee caps line up. My hips line up. I can't see any differences. . . . But my left leg is weaker. I kick out the same way when fatigued, using the right to get out of sticking points.

[mgil]

Given that we are all asymmetrical, why do we expect symmetry?

If you’re super concerned, do some more practice at lighter reps and some pause squats. Maybe even some pauses trying to target where you slide the hips a bit.

Regardless, I wouldn’t worry too much. I think if you sort your knees out (the knee cave is more pronounced on rep two), you’ll probably be okay.

[Hanley]

What I'm trying to figure out is whether it's an issue of form or physiology.

You don't seem to have a dramatic lateral shift on the eccentric. Seems unlikely that this is a (wholly) structural issue.

Looking again in slow-mo.

You do have overpronated feet. Especially your right foot. Might be worth slapping a band on (just below your knees), and over-correcting the over-pronation (think about driving the rear-quarter of your shoe into the ground and ripping the ground between your feet apart).

So, try:

1) squatting with a band (maybe with slow tempo)
2) weight on outside rear quarter of foot
3) cue "rip open ground between feet" [basically "knees out" but this cue tend to more actively focus on what the feet/ankles are doing].

[DannyP]

To answer some of the questions, yes, this is definitely more pronounced the heavier the weight and the further I am into the set. Mondays (when this was shot) involve the heaviest weights, with my entire workout made up of eight heavy doubles.

In terms of my setup, I think there may be two problems: first, pronating my feet at different angles and, second, standing with my feet slightly staggered and not completely aligned with one another. If there is any anatomical issue, I was thinking it would have to do with my hip joints, not my leg length, but I'm also more than willing to concede that it's technique-related entirely.

The strength discrepancy between legs is interesting; hadn't thought of that before.

This clip is from yesterday, which involves the lightest weights (and most overall reps and reps per set) of the week:



Definitely becomes more pronounced as the set progresses. And, in spite of my best efforts, my legs seem to pronate at slightly different angles (which would probably have the same effect of a noticeable leg length asymmetry).

[OCG]

Simplest things first:

1. Buy better more solid shoes. Something like the Romaleo II's or III XD, Reebook Legacy Lifter, Adipower etc. This will help your arches/pronation.

2. Get your heels to stay solidly on the ground.

3. Probably take a much deeper breath and squeeze your abs so much tighter (pull your chest "down" as hard as you can, without actually pulling it down).

Are you trying to stand in a staggered stance with one foot further back and different foot angles? Do you have any reason to? Because you are, and without a lot of experimentation, I wouldn't have anyone squat like that. After you walk the bar out, look down at your feet, take your stance and then don't move them. It should be the same every time.

[Hanley]

pronating my feet at different angles

We might be talking about different things here, but I just want to point out that I really should have used "ankle eversion" in place of "pronation". Your ankle seems to roll in pretty dramatically.

[DannyP]

Simplest things first:

1. Buy better more solid shoes. Something like the Romaleo II's or III XD, Reebook Legacy Lifter, Adipower etc. This will help your arches/pronation.

2. Get your heels to stay solidly on the ground.

3. Probably take a much deeper breath and squeeze your abs so much tighter (pull your chest "down" as hard as you can, without actually pulling it down).

Are you trying to stand in a staggered stance with one foot further back and different foot angles? Do you have any reason to? Because you are, and without a lot of experimentation, I wouldn't have anyone squat like that. After you walk the bar out, look down at your feet, take your stance and then don't move them. It should be the same every time.

Definitely not trying to stagger feet. Just the opposite. But after stepping back there’s only so much adjustment I can do while supporting he load and keeping enough energy to squat.

As for the shoes, I tried some Power Perfects and didn’t like the higher heel, which as I understand it all of the more solid models have.

[DannyP]

pronating my feet at different angles

We might be talking about different things here, but I just want to point out that I really should have used "ankle eversion" in place of "pronation". Your ankle seems to roll in pretty dramatically.

Yea. Sorry. Was thinking you were referring to the different angles at which feet point outwards. And I’ve noticed the ankle thing but not certain how to fix. I’d always thought her (been told “elsewhere”) that it was a symptom of allowing knee cave. Though I wonder if the opposite is true?

Is that an issue of too much mobility? Too little? Something else?

[MPat]

@DannyP you and I have a similar problem. Unfortunately I haven’t fixed it yet either, it’s a deeply seeded issue from thinking I had to grind away and not be a bitch. But I did figure out it gets better with a more upright torso. My solution so far has been the SSB. Since I don’t compete it’s not a issue. But I still want to fix this at some point and be able to squat with a regular bar like normal people.

I do find that a closer stance helps me, but you need the ankle mobility to make that work. I’m sure you have messed with a lot of that. I wish you luck, I’ll be following along.

[blowdpanis]

@DannyP you and I have a similar problem. Unfortunately I haven’t fixed it yet either, it’s a deeply seeded issue from thinking I had to grind away and not be a bitch. But I did figure out it gets better with a more upright torso. My solution so far has been the SSB. Since I don’t compete it’s not a issue. But I still want to fix this at some point and be able to squat with a regular bar like normal people.

I do find that a closer stance helps me, but you need the ankle mobility to make that work. I’m sure you have messed with a lot of that. I wish you luck, I’ll be following along.

I probably should have emphasized this part of my post more, but for you and DannyP, are you either of you guys actually experiencing pain during or after these movements performed a little asymmetrically?

If you are not experiencing pain, then proactively fixing motor patterns like this is a little iffy in my eyes. For instance, if the ultimate source of this stuff happens to be structural, then in many ways your body has already adapted over a lifetime of being subtly asymmetric. Not to mention the potential years in which you've heavily loaded these movements asymmetrically. If you actually had an immediate solution to enforce symmetry, you could argue that it might represent unaccustomed loading to tissues in a way in which they're currently unadapted, so if you weren't in pain before, it's not impossible you could accidentally CAUSE pain after.

Somebody should send the bat signal out to Austin though, as I'm sincerely curious what the BBM crowd does in situations like this. I know Rippetoe believes in trying to enforce symmetry, and there was just an article on the main page recently talking about how to shim your own shoes. As I said above, in my case, Austin basically told me to try not to worry about it as he seemingly perceived the worry as a larger factor than the asymmetry in terms of likelihood of causing pain.

[Hanley]

you could accidentally CAUSE pain after.

Hi. This is meta-nocebo free zone.

Please conduct yourself accordingly.

[blowdpanis]

you could accidentally CAUSE pain after.

Hi. This is meta-nocebo free zone.

Please conduct yourself accordingly.

I assume you're half-joking, but in any discussion of pain, this is difficult to avoid. I.e. by speculating on what could potentially cause pain/injury, you might accidentally cause pain. It's tricky, and if you think about what a lot of us did during our formative, Rippetoe-inspired years, even being form/biomechanics focused lends itself to this possibility. "We keep our spine neutral to avoid hurting our lower backs in the deadlift or squat" becomes "oh no, I let my spine go a little on that rep, I may have just hurt myself."

In this case I was just confused whether the OP or user above was actually experiencing any problems/pain in the first place. Trying to alter form to appeal to some platonic, biomechanical ideal does have the chance of backfiring, but I'm not sure the softest way to suggest that without accidentally nocebo-ing people.

[Hanley]

discussion of pain

Did he even mention pain?

biomechanical ideal does have the chance of backfiring,

Maybe. But most likely not.

Do you not believe in refining motor programs through volitional, directed modification over time? How about in sports other than powerlifting? Does refining a left hook, javelin throw, stride mechanics, pitching mechanics pose similar problems as refining mechanics in squats?

[blowdpanis]

discussion of pain

Did he even mention pain?

He didn't mention pain, which is why I was attempting to discern why he wanted to fix this in the first place. It's fine to just want it symmetrical for symmetry's sake, obviously.

But in any form discussion like this, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that there may be underlying injury/pain concerns, however.

Maybe. But most likely not.

If they're starting from a baseline of productive training and no pain/injury/limitations, I'm not sure I see the upside to fixing minor asymmetry, particularly when there's a structural component. Do you disagree?

Do you not believe in refining motor programs through volitional, directed modification over time? How about in sports other than powerlifting? Does refining a left hook, javelin throw, stride mechanics, pitching mechanics pose similar problems as refining mechanics in squats?

Of course you can improve form over time, and that's kind of the nature of technique acquisition in general. I just have hesitation in recommending people fix asymmetry issues with a fundamental, structural basis ala Rippetoe's recommendations if there are no apparent issues. I'm not sure it's in line with what's meaningfully productive from a pain science perspective.

[Hanley]

I think there's miniscule risk and potential value (1rm over long term) in Danny practicing a more symmetrical squat.

[blowdpanis]

I actually agree. I think technique is much easier to relate to performance, with technique modification justified on those grounds.

I guess I was just trying to caution people against going down the rabbit hole of asymmetric form perfectionism (from a you-know-what perspective), as it's a path I've gone down that wasn't entirely productive.

[Hanley]

technique is much easier to relate to performance, with technique modification justified on those grounds.

Yeah. fist-bump emoji