Stupid Questions Thread

[OverheadDeadlifts]

Anterior pelvic tilt: is it actually fixable?

Googling this turns up some claims that it can be fixed with certain stretches and exercises but I have not seen any before and after photos confirming it. I'm leaning to the shortened hip flexors theory but idk.

And fwiw I disagree with BBM's scientistic claim that it's not a thing. Whether it has any importance beyond aesthetics I don't know.

Definitely ‘fixable’ although I think postural changes are much more about consciously putting yourself in your desired posture until it becomes the new normal rather than stretching or exercises. There’s probably some people with exquisitely mobile hips with a pelvis that’s anteriorly rotated at rest.

It’s like people who are slouched over. Unless they’re pretty old, the flexibility to stand up straight is already there, it just feels weird to do so since that’s not their muscles’ resting length. All they have to do is force themselves to sit/stand/walk around like that for a few weeks and job done. Same thing with your pelvis. If you can rotate it into the ‘correct’ position without doing a bunch of stretching, you’re already flexible enough. You just need to do the rewiring.

WRT to BBM, I don’t they’d disagree that it’s possible for a pelvis to be anteriorly rotated at rest (or posteriorly rotated or anything in between) but that the actual diagnosis of ‘Anterior Pelvic Tilt’ was just pulled out of somebodies ass, isn’t useful and may cause a bunch of people to worry about something they shouldn’t worry about.

[OrderInChaos]

If you have to do lots of crunches or sit-ups on the floor and have a tendency toward spinal bifida or just a long ass tailbone - yes APT is a real ass thing.

And yeah correcting it is more about engaging previously lax muscles to ensure you keep things aligned as you want.

[FredM]

WRT to BBM, I don’t they’d disagree that it’s possible for a pelvis to be anteriorly rotated at rest (or posteriorly rotated or anything in between) but that the actual diagnosis of ‘Anterior Pelvic Tilt’ was just pulled out of somebodies ass, isn’t useful and may cause a bunch of people to worry about something they shouldn’t worry about.

I disagree strongly with them and generally think they struggle with the concept of absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

APT is obviously a real thing and it obviously is undesirable. It's also easily fixable (I fixed it in a month). Whether your back pain is caused by APT is hard/impossible to answer, sure. But it's f*cking simple physics after only a cursory evaluation of the biomechanics of the spine that it can bear more load in a neutral position. Ergo, if you lift heavy weights on a frequent basis, and have APT, you should probably fix that shit. Even if that isn't the cause of your back pain it takes about 5 min a day for a few weeks and the worst case scenario is you still have the same exact back pain you did before you started.

It's pretty effing easy to test if you "have APT." Or a pelvic torsion. Just flex your glutes while standing straight. When I do this now very little happens. When I did it 8 months ago my pelvis would rotate 15 degrees or more. When I flexed just my left glute my pelvis would rotate almost 30 degrees (on the opposite plane). Now when I do those things -- again, almost nothing happens. I also no longer have back pain and can squat heavy again relatively frequently and volumously without anything beyond normal soreness. I tried a million other things for months before this stupidly clinging to the "pain science" explanation from BBM and getting depressed at how mentally weak I must be.

[DCR]

It's pretty effing easy to test if you "have APT." Or a pelvic torsion. Just flex your glutes while standing straight. When I do this now very little happens. When I did it 8 months ago my pelvis would rotate 15 degrees or more.

Precisely. I’m the “or more.”

[Renascent]

It's pretty effing easy to test if you "have APT." Or a pelvic torsion. Just flex your glutes while standing straight. When I do this now very little happens. When I did it 8 months ago my pelvis would rotate 15 degrees or more.

Precisely. I’m the “or more.”

Heh. I was gonna quote the exact same thing.

[dw]

WRT to BBM, I don’t they’d disagree that it’s possible for a pelvis to be anteriorly rotated at rest (or posteriorly rotated or anything in between) but that the actual diagnosis of ‘Anterior Pelvic Tilt’ was just pulled out of somebodies ass, isn’t useful and may cause a bunch of people to worry about something they shouldn’t worry about.

I disagree strongly with them and generally think they struggle with the concept of absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

APT is obviously a real thing and it obviously is undesirable. It's also easily fixable (I fixed it in a month). Whether your back pain is caused by APT is hard/impossible to answer, sure. But it's f*cking simple physics after only a cursory evaluation of the biomechanics of the spine that it can bear more load in a neutral position. Ergo, if you lift heavy weights on a frequent basis, and have APT, you should probably fix that shit. Even if that isn't the cause of your back pain it takes about 5 min a day for a few weeks and the worst case scenario is you still have the same exact back pain you did before you started.

It's pretty effing easy to test if you "have APT." Or a pelvic torsion. Just flex your glutes while standing straight. When I do this now very little happens. When I did it 8 months ago my pelvis would rotate 15 degrees or more. When I flexed just my left glute my pelvis would rotate almost 30 degrees (on the opposite plane). Now when I do those things -- again, almost nothing happens. I also no longer have back pain and can squat heavy again relatively frequently and volumously without anything beyond normal soreness. I tried a million other things for months before this stupidly clinging to the "pain science" explanation from BBM and getting depressed at how mentally weak I must be.

Hmm...to me the shift forward feels substantial (which is actually one of the things that got me on this topic) but in the mirror it seems like...maybe 5 degrees? I may be misjudging though.

What's the fix?

[OverheadDeadlifts]

@FredM

Remember how obsessed everybody was with buttwink on squats a few years ago? Obviously a bunch of lumbar flexion at the bottom of a squat is bad, but when it became ‘buttwink’ all of a sudden everybody was asking ‘what’s buttwink? Do I have buttwink? Is that bad? Wait I saw my pelvis move a little bit at the bottom. Is that buttwink? DO I HAVE BUTTWINK? SHOULD I DELOAD? HELP’.

Not that I’m in any position to speak on their behalf, but I’m guessing that’s what they’re trying to avoid with their take on things like anterior pelvic tilt. When ‘excessive anterior tilt could be the cause of some peoples back pain’ becomes Anterior Pelvic Tilt (with capital letters because it’s SERIOUS) it becomes a ‘thing’ you get those same people catastrophising over the position of their pelvis and posting pictures of themselves in their underwear asking ‘IS THIS ATP? DO I HAVE THE ATP????’ and deloading back to the bar.

[FredM]

Hmm...to me the shift forward feels substantial (which is actually one of the things that got me on this topic) but in the mirror it seems like...maybe 5 degrees? I may be misjudging though.

What's the fix?

5 degrees is probably natural (no APT). Your spine isn't literally straight in the "neutral" position. That said, "the cure" isn't going to hurt if you don't have APT and probably isn't a bad idea for the majority of the lifting population.

It's caused by asymmetries in strength and/or "length," so you have to address those. For me (and most people who sit a lot) this is going to be weakness in glutes and lower abs and shortened (overly tight) hip flexors. The former are in a tug of war with the latter for pelvic positioning. Unless you do a lot of direct hip flexor work, it's unlikely your hip flexors are too strong. Unless you do lower ab work regularly (and can actually feel it in your lower abs) it's unlikely that they're too strong. Your glutes probably aren't actually weak or "too loose" but generally inhibited because you sit on them all day.

So glute activation, lower ab strengthening, and hip flexor stretching is the formula that worked for me and I'd wager would work for most (not all) people. Practically this looks like a few sets of 5-10 paused glute bridges a day (do whatever you need to to feel your glutes squeezing for 2 seconds at the top. I initially had to use a hip circle but don't anymore), 2-3 sets of hip flexor "stretches" (active lengthening and passive tension release/relaxation), and lower ab work (my gotos are deadbugs, birddogs and a variation of v-sits).

I did this almost every night for a few weeks and moved to single leg bridges with just my left leg for a while because my pelvis was also rotated on the other plane due to my left glute being weaker than my right.

Now I mostly just do a variation of that 3x/wk during my preworkout and just stretch my hip flexors (and most other posterior chain muscles by doing hybrid stretches) at night.

This also mostly cured my lower back pain. I've found other less significant sources of lower back pain that I've had to deal with in other ways but it's now easy to rule pelvic alignment out with a 2 second glute squeezing test.

@OverheadDeadlifts yeah I get that but I think they have a tendency drastically overcorrect to differentiate themselves from Egypt and now every other youtube internet guru. As a result, I think their advice ends up being pretty harmful to some. As harmful as the SquatU guy or Aasgard? Probably not.

I don't think it has to be so complicated. Is butt wink bad?

A. Did you always squat with butt wink and never have a problem? No.
B. Did you change your form yesterday but use the same 1rm for 75% 5x5s? Probably
C. In either scenario is your spine going to explode and keep you from ever squatting heavy again? Nope.

We don't need 30 page meta-analyses on the 13 articles that might have relevant data only to conclude "the data doesn't tell us" so it's probably in your head (haven't actually read their opinion on butt wink).

[James]

I don't know if I have butt wink or whatever but one time I did a front squat and it felt like my hips tried to roll underneath me and I almost fell over backwards. Is that buttwink?

[FredM]

I don't know if I have butt wink or whatever but one time I did a front squat and it felt like my hips tried to roll underneath me and I almost fell over backwards. Is that buttwink?

Probably. It's when you squat deeper than you have the mobility for (while keeping a straight back/neutral spine) and the only way left for your body to make room is by pulling your pelvis in (which bends your lower back). It's similar to how most people can't touch the ground while keeping their knees straight unless they round their lower back.

Most people have the "inherent" mobility to squat below parallel with a neutral spine. Some people (like me) have deep hip sockets and suffer literal hip impingement though (fortunately mine doesn't take effect until a few inches below parallel). Generally I think it makes more sense to fix your mobility. But if you are going to squat with butt wink it should be an intentional thing that you progressively overload. As I said (and I think BBM mostly agrees -- I may have even read it first from them) the real "danger" comes from not doing that. E.G. I decided to narrow my squat stance and point my toes in in the middle of a block so unknowingly started squatting with butt wink with heavy weights. Pretty sure this led to some of my lower back pain (a small portion of it). But I've still thrown in that type of squatting (light with tempo) into my recent rotations because it's specific to my life (when I pick my kids up off the ground I often have to do it from an ATG squat position with lower back rounding).

[Renascent]

I did this almost every night for a few weeks and moved to single leg bridges with just my left leg for a while because my pelvis was also rotated on the other plane due to my left glute being weaker than my right.

Weighted?

[FredM]

I did this almost every night for a few weeks and moved to single leg bridges with just my left leg for a while because my pelvis was also rotated on the other plane due to my left glute being weaker than my right.

Weighted?

No. But I do direct glute work in my normal routine now for strengthening them. The bridges at night were all about mind/muscle connection with two legs.

I do hip thrusts on Wednesdays now. I'm of the strong opinion that stronger glutes are somewhere between good for you and life changing. Probably not quite as bought into it as Brent Contreras but I'm getting close. I also do single leg hip thrusts every other week. This is mostly just to make sure my sides are keeping pace with one another. Sometimes my left is weaker again and I'll do them 1x/wk for a few weeks with just the left leg until they're at parity again. I haven't weighted these as I can only do 15 reps or so per side unweighted anyway still (I 1-2 ct pause at the top to make sure I feel the glute). I'll probably weight them with a dumbbell when I hit 20 reps.

[SnakePlissken]

@OverheadDeadlifts yeah I get that but I think they have a tendency drastically overcorrect to differentiate themselves from Egypt and now every other youtube internet guru. As a result, I think their advice ends up being pretty harmful to some. As harmful as the SquatU guy or Aasgard? Probably not.

Is Squat University guy a quack? Don't know much about him.

[Renascent]

@OverheadDeadlifts yeah I get that but I think they have a tendency drastically overcorrect to differentiate themselves from Egypt and now every other youtube internet guru. As a result, I think their advice ends up being pretty harmful to some. As harmful as the SquatU guy or Aasgard? Probably not.

Is Squat University guy a quack? Don't know much about him.

My own opinion of him is that he seems legit, in some context or another. There's always the caveat of someone who specializes in imbalances overdiagnosing things to the point where the average person might eventually question whether they'll ever be ready enough to simply load up their spine and actually squat.

His presentation reminds me of Knees Over Toes Guy (that cringy, self-celebratory style of presentation that can easily be construed as arrogant quackery), but I suspect the latter might actually be a little more self-aware.

[Hardartery]

@OverheadDeadlifts yeah I get that but I think they have a tendency drastically overcorrect to differentiate themselves from Egypt and now every other youtube internet guru. As a result, I think their advice ends up being pretty harmful to some. As harmful as the SquatU guy or Aasgard? Probably not.

I don't think it has to be so complicated. Is butt wink bad?

A. Did you always squat with butt wink and never have a problem? No.
B. Did you change your form yesterday but use the same 1rm for 75% 5x5s? Probably
C. In either scenario is your spine going to explode and keep you from ever squatting heavy again? Nope.

We don't need 30 page meta-analyses on the 13 articles that might have relevant data only to conclude "the data doesn't tell us" so it's probably in your head (haven't actually read their opinion on butt wink).

Not so humble opnion incoming..... Butt Wink is an invented problem that does not need to be addressed directly. Yes, I just said that, and I'll double down. Not a real issue.
You will notice a lot of really strong people demonstrate butt wink on squats, during warmup/workup sets. I have done this historically as well, moreso when I was younger and stronger. It literally does not exist as a legitimate issue. It doesn't hurt anything, short term or long term, and eventually you will stop doing it naturally anyway. It demonstrates a lot of flexibility and comfort with the weight, as the weight gets heavier you just stop doing it because you lose the ability to do it. I am pretty sure I have lost the mechanical ability to do it, once I'm at my lowest position I am physically unable to do a butt wink if there is any serious weight on the bar.
Don't believe me? Watch some videos of Novikov training squats. He butt winks like a maniac on the ligth sets and it simply stops happening when the weight gets heavy. He's not the only one, just the one that popped into my mind. I have seen quite a few video of guys doing exactly the same thing. It is not a legitimate concern for anyone.

[FredM]

@OverheadDeadlifts yeah I get that but I think they have a tendency drastically overcorrect to differentiate themselves from Egypt and now every other youtube internet guru. As a result, I think their advice ends up being pretty harmful to some. As harmful as the SquatU guy or Aasgard? Probably not.

Is Squat University guy a quack? Don't know much about him.

He’s pretty much who BBM gets their tone/over correcting from. They’ve basically called him out directly a few times.

I doubt he’s the actual advice source that led to Austin’s patients laying in bed for decades for no reason or aborting their baby because their abs were too weak… but I would 100% believe people get overly confused and scared from his content. I bought his book and found basically all of it to be mostly useless except the benefits of ab work and hip airplanes. He definitely scared me into not lifting very hard for a month or 2 and probably made my symptoms a little worse for a little while but BBM did just as much damage to my gainzz for the opposite reason.

The part where he thinks he can diagnose every potential source of back if joint pain with a few mobility screens is obviously bs. But I don’t doubt he’s helped countless people that actually see him in person.

I donot ever see Ben telling people to stop lifting or moving so I generally put him at less quack status than SquatU.

[Renascent]

I donot ever see Ben telling people to stop lifting or moving so I generally put him at less quack status than SquatU.

Every time I see him dunk that damn basketball and excitedly pop up into frame, I get the feeling that he's fully aware that his presentation style draws the ire of a measurable portion of the strength community, and is more or less amused by it.

Calling his outfit the "Athletic Truth Group" is some admirable trolling, I think. Dude's a genius in my book, for the presentation alone.

[SnakePlissken]

I've heard mixed things online about Squat U, but I've also heard mixed things about AthleanX so I just never really cared to hear what he had to say.

I think BBM knows what they're talking about for the most part, but they also forget that lifting is a meathead activity. There are dudes with 10th percentile IQs out there that are jacked because it isn't complicated at the end of the day.

To comment on @Hardartery, agreed. I didn't even know what it was for the first several years I lifted and only did HB squatting back then and I still do it when I do deep HB squats and I've never had back or hip pain.

[Hardartery]

I've heard mixed things online about Squat U, but I've also heard mixed things about AthleanX so I just never really cared to hear what he had to say.

I think BBM knows what they're talking about for the most part, but they also forget that lifting is a meathead activity. There are dudes with 10th percentile IQs out there that are jacked because it isn't complicated at the end of the day.

To comment on @Hardartery, agreed. I didn't even know what it was for the first several years I lifted and only did HB squatting back then and I still do it when I do deep HB squats and I've never had back or hip pain.

I am not an expert on either channel, the few thing that I have seen from AthleanX seem suspect at best and the guy is trading on being lean. He might look big because no one actually big is anywhere near him and he has been called out for fake weights several times while using weights that frankly aren't all that special. Some Squat U stuff seems okay, but far from unique info or earth shattering. I think it's largely "Coaches" seeking to justify their existence that have some hard on for butt wink. When you start looking around, it is common and not bothering anybody.

[SnakePlissken]

I've heard mixed things online about Squat U, but I've also heard mixed things about AthleanX so I just never really cared to hear what he had to say.

I think BBM knows what they're talking about for the most part, but they also forget that lifting is a meathead activity. There are dudes with 10th percentile IQs out there that are jacked because it isn't complicated at the end of the day.

To comment on @Hardartery, agreed. I didn't even know what it was for the first several years I lifted and only did HB squatting back then and I still do it when I do deep HB squats and I've never had back or hip pain.

I am not an expert on either channel, the few thing that I have seen from AthleanX seem suspect at best and the guy is trading on being lean. He might look big because no one actually big is anywhere near him and he has been called out for fake weights several times while using weights that frankly aren't all that special. Some Squat U stuff seems okay, but far from unique info or earth shattering. I think it's largely "Coaches" seeking to justify their existence that have some hard on for butt wink. When you start looking around, it is common and not bothering anybody.

I'll gladly shit on AthleanX. First time I ever came across one of his videos was around 2017 when I was lifting in college and my max squat back then was like 275 maybe and one of his videos talked about squat breathing and bracing; he said to breathe in while you're descending and to start exhaling as you come out of the hole and knew that was whack even when I was weak. I couldn't imagine squatting 4 plates using a breathing technique like that.

I did some quick interwebs searching on Squat U and he sounds like a disciple of McGill which is why I think people have mixed feelings. I failed sit and reach every year in PE as a kid, but just lifting weights has gotten me more flexible than the average person and I don't do static stretching. When I did Muay Thai I stretched every day and I really don't feel much of a difference. Maybe because I'm not 30 yet, but we'll see.