Who's Fasting

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JohnHelton
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Who's Fasting

#1

Post by JohnHelton » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:45 am

I have started reading more about this, not just for weight loss, but also for potential cancer prevention. I'm thinking about doing a 5-day fast during my next deload week. That is in addition to doing 16:8 intermittent fasting regularly.

Anyone else have experience? Comments? Suggestions?

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Re: Who's Fasting

#2

Post by michael » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:28 am

You'll lose 1/2 pound of muscle per day on a fast. I wouldn't.

If you want to do something extreme maybe a PSMF.

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Re: Who's Fasting

#3

Post by JohnHelton » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:53 am

michael wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:28 am You'll lose 1/2 pound of muscle per day on a fast. I wouldn't.
Maybe not:

https://peterattiamd.com/can-you-mainta ... g-fasting/
https://www.dietdoctor.com/does-fasting-burn-muscle

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Re: Who's Fasting

#4

Post by michael » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:57 am

It is virtually impossible that humans were designed to store food energy as body fat, but when food was not available, we burn muscle.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever read.

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Re: Who's Fasting

#5

Post by michael » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:51 am

Two Edged SwordShow
I guess a day of fasting might be okay, but longer seems risky.

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Re: Who's Fasting

#6

Post by JohnHelton » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:53 am

michael wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:57 am
It is virtually impossible that humans were designed to store food energy as body fat, but when food was not available, we burn muscle.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever read.
I don't know where that sentence comes from. It doesn't jive with everything else. Elsewhere he calls our fat stores something akin to the basement freezer with endless stores of energy. However, we can't access this energy given the presence of insulin.

ETA: I just reread the sentence in context. He is saying that since we were designed to store food energy as body fat, then it is virtually impossible that we would burn muscle when food is not available.

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Re: Who's Fasting

#7

Post by mbasic » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:09 am

JohnHelton wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:53 am ETA: I just reread the sentence in context. He is saying that since we were designed to store food energy as body fat, then it is virtually impossible that we would burn muscle when food is not available.
It would seem to me if one did nothing terribly exhausting during that 5 day fast, the muscle wasting might not be so bad.

Just seems kinda pointless though? Maybe dangerous.
Day 4 you pass out behind the wheel of your car or something???
Or are somehow called upon to do something physically hard all of the sudden out of nowhere.

Maybe try 1 to 2 days first?

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Re: Who's Fasting

#8

Post by JohnHelton » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:17 am

@mbasic, anecdotally, people say that day 2 is the hardest. You are hungry and feel tired as your body switches to fat for fuel. Days 3-5 are suppose to be progressively better. That said, I'm considering doing this on a deload week. Also, the more fat adapted you are, the easier the transition is. I'm fairly well fat adapted, having been in ketosis numerous times. Also, I have done a 24 hour fast before. Like ketosis, I understand it is important to increase your salt intake. Being low on salt will make you feel miserable.

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Re: Who's Fasting

#9

Post by mbasic » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:22 am

sounds like you got a handle on it

good luck with your fasting

(no, really)

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Re: Who's Fasting

#10

Post by JohnHelton » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:26 am

Thanks, @mbasic. I will post here what I learn from this little experiment. I'm anticipating doing it the week of December 16th.

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Re: Who's Fasting

#11

Post by mbasic » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:29 am

JohnHelton wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:26 am Thanks, mbasic. I will post here what I learn from this little experiment. I'm anticipating doing it the week of December 16th.
I'll be following along, with encouraging posts like this one.

Image

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Re: Who's Fasting

#12

Post by JohnHelton » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:31 am

@MattNeilsen, can you provide some insight from your experience?

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Re: Who's Fasting

#13

Post by broseph » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:54 am

I don’t know if there’s much merit to the health benefits of fasting (outside of fat loss), but I used to fast for non health reasons.

It’s been a while, but I used to do 24 hrs with nothing but water several times a year. The longest I’ve gone was 3 days. It was fine.

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Re: Who's Fasting

#14

Post by Wilhelm » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:19 pm

D'agostino deadlifted 500 for 10 on the seventh day of a fast.
Then presented a lecture.
I just like that story. :lol:

I haven't looked into extended fasting, but i have seen recommendations of once a quarter for extended fasts.

My take, is that a week could be interesting, and you'd be fine, but that long term, ketosis and IF would have a better effect magnitude.

If it were me, i 'd consider maybe 36 hours, or three days tops.
Again, if i imagined myself trying it.

I know Martins Licis' nutritionist was having him do 36 hours once a week for a while.

Enjoy your experiment whatever you decide.

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Re: Who's Fasting

#15

Post by Salahudin » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:43 am

Meeee!, primary benefits included, easier to stay in a deficit and less time needed to get to work in the morning. So higher compliance, I guess

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Re: Who's Fasting

#16

Post by alek » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:53 am

JohnHelton wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:53 am He is saying that since we were designed to store food energy as body fat, then it is virtually impossible that we would burn muscle when food is not available.
I would question this statement. Our bodies need a supply of amino acids, and if we don't consume them with food, is it possible to generate the non-essential amino acids during a fast? I just don't know the answer.

If yes, there's some "aminoneogenesis" (I just replaced gluco with amino in gluconeogenesis.) while fasting, then that' good. However, you're still missing the EAA, which come only from food.

If no, then they will come from muscle.

Additionally, MPS/MPB is always occurring; if you're not in synthesis, you're in breakdown.

***************

With that said, I looked into fasting about a year ago; looked at papers and such. I'll see if I have anything worth sharing.

ETA: Well, according to Wikipedia,

"An essential amino acid, or indispensable amino acid, is an amino acid that cannot be synthesized de novo (from scratch) by the organism at a rate commensurate with its demand, and thus must be supplied in its diet. Of the 21 amino acids common to all life forms, the nine amino acids humans cannot synthesize are phenylalanine, valine, threonine, tryptophan, methionine, leucine, isoleucine, lysine, and histidine.[1][2]"

[1] Young VR (1994). "Adult amino acid requirements: the case for a major revision in current recommendations" (PDF). J. Nutr. 124 (8 Suppl): 1517S–1523S. doi:10.1093/jn/124.suppl_8.1517S. PMID 8064412.

[2] Dietary Reference Intakes: The Essential Guide to Nutrient Requirements Archived 5 July 2014 at the Wayback Machine. Institute of Medicine's Food and Nutrition Board. usda.gov

ETA2: If you're fasting for a couple days to a week at a time, then it probably doesn't matter long term IMO.

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Re: Who's Fasting

#17

Post by JohnHelton » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:08 pm

@alek, the theory is that you look first to autophagy and apoptosis for the needed amino acids (including EAAs). This is actually the biggest reason to go through an extended fast IMHO. You can also get the material from skin, etc. You don't necessarily breakdown muscle in a fast of less than 5-7 days. I also think there is probably value to continue to do some level of strength training during an extended fast to signal to the body that it shouldn't breakdown the muscle proteins. That said, I would guess there is a limit to how hard one would want to train during an extended fast. That is why I'm planning to do it during a deload week.

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Re: Who's Fasting

#18

Post by Ragholmes » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:34 pm

I'm wondering what @Austin 's take is on this?

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Re: Who's Fasting

#19

Post by simonrest » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:16 pm

I'm no help with extended fasting, but I am back doing IF with a weight loss goal. I don't the IGF1 inhibition argument that some IF practitioners make, for me it's just a way to more easily comply with a calorie deficit. I don't mind not eating all day, and then I'm able to eat whatever my family is eating for dinner. I'm only eating 5pm to 9pm so it would be quite a feat to get to 2000 calories. I'm 4 weeks in, down 3kg or so. Training is going OK, considering. At the start I would get light headed but that's happening much less.

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Re: Who's Fasting

#20

Post by dcw » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:18 pm

JohnHelton wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:45 am I have started reading more about this, not just for weight loss, but also for potential cancer prevention. I'm thinking about doing a 5-day fast during my next deload week. That is in addition to doing 16:8 intermittent fasting regularly.

Anyone else have experience? Comments? Suggestions?
I did a 5 day fast a few years ago when I was heavy into keto/IF. I read/watched/listened to everything D’agostino, Attia, Phinney, Volek, et al had to say. Monitored bHb levels via one touch. Drinking bullion cubes in water. Fat bombs. MCT oil in coffee. Exogenous ketones. The whole nine yards. It was an interesting experience. Speaking of the whole experience (~1-2 years), I never really lost much strength, but I for sure didn’t gain any either. (IIRC, D’agostino even says that for hypertrophy/strength gains (vs maintenance), keto is probably not optimal.)

The long fast was meh. It wasn’t a particularly monumental experience like one would think it would be. Lost some weight but didn’t get any leaner. Was hungry as hell the whole time, but once bHb got to about 3mmol (day 3?) it was only slightly miserable. Bathroom trips were terrible. Strength dropped but recovered soon after. Wasn’t particularly tired during, but wasn’t energetic either.

Mine coincided with an intensive classroom based week of training that involved 16 hour days. The lack of a need to prep food was good for the class, and the busy week made the fast easier. Plan things to keep yourself occupied, especially if you’ll have even more free time than normal due to the deload.

If you want to try it, then go for it. It’s not going to significantly derail any of your progress long term. OTOH, I’m not really sure of the magnitude of proposed benefits, either. Something something nuanced, probably.

FWIW and a n=1, my strength, body composition, and bloodwork were always worse on low carb, keto, and/or IF than a traditional diet, even given healthy BW and waist measurements in all scenarios. And I did these things “right” (DTFP?).

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