Coronavirus

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5hout
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Re: Coronavirus

#9341

Post by 5hout » Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:07 am

neandrewthal wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:25 pm How can you forgive and forget when it's not even over? The Covidians in my neck of the woods won't even admit they got anything wrong and just keep going on about the latest incarnation of their narrative: the mass disabling event.

And sure, forgive people who pushed school closures in spring 2020. But 2021? I dunno man.

Or forgive the people who want me to wear a mask for the seasonal flu now?

Forgive someone who supported my being barred from my gym for refusing to provide private medical information? No fucking way. And before you call me bitter and resentful and say I need to let it go, approximately 0% of those people are sorry or even realize they made a mistake. This isn't an anti-vax extremist position. I am still fucking furious at the extremism enacted against me.

The people Emily Oster represents, those who made honest mistakes and regret them are an extremely tiny minority. I haven't personally met one in real life.
I slept on this to make sure I felt the same in the cool light of morning.

Fuck Emily Oster.

She's calling for an almost completely one sided amnesty. She wants an amnesty for herself, her friends, her allies and people she basically agrees with on 95% of topics. Don't worry though "We can leave out the willful purveyors of actual misinformation while forgiving the hard calls that people had no choice but to make with imperfect knowledge", which given her examples and non-examples is pretty clearly anyone she doesn't like or that advocated for opening up more than a week before she decided it was acceptable.

This isn't "let's let reasonable people on both sides move on", it's "let's let my side move on and everyone else stay shunned."

Also, "Given the amount of uncertainty, almost every position was taken on every topic. And on every topic, someone was eventually proved right, and someone else was proved wrong. In some instances, the right people were right for the wrong reasons. In other instances, they had a prescient understanding of the available information." No, fuck this. Some people were right faster and way more often. Other people weren't. Other people still aren't. This is a call to not Bayesian update on this information b/c Emily Oster doesn't like that it would make the people she thinks are smart/she likes look consistently slow to understanding, virtue-signalling (here specifically meaning they didn't speak the truth until it was socially acceptable to, but instead parroted outdated information to show their proper tribal allegiance) cretins.

"But most errors were made by people who were working in earnest for the good of society." WE ARE STILL FUNDING GAIN OF FUNCTION RESEARCH. https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2022/10/20 ... -did-what/

Of course, people did what they felt was right and worked for the good of society, but they often engaged in unforgivably stupid benefit only analysis and derided people that called for cost/benefit analysis. Now she wants a free pass for them, but only the "thems" firmly in her tribe. That's not an amnesty, that's the victors writing history.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9342

Post by mgil » Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:31 am

Well, this has spurned some interesting discussion.

I’ll admit I glossed over the original article and had the takeaway of “we all kinda fucked up and we probably need to make amends to get shit back on track”.

I completely understand people’s outrage over the government and the overreach. Further, I still think places asking me to mask up are basically filled with idiots. And I’m stating this while in “isolation” from a rebound case due to (the underreporting of occurrences of) Paxlovid.

I do see a need for a discussion. What I will say is that even though this piece might be a shitpost, it has started discussions of what really needs to happen.

Somewhere in this discussion needs to be a side topic of science not being a religion.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9343

Post by 5hout » Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:38 am

mgil wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:31 am
Somewhere in this discussion needs to be a side topic of science not being a religion.
Counterpoint: It 'clearly' is a religion for many people, complete with priests/high priests/deacons/lay members and devils. IFL Science is the charismatic evangelist faction, for example.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9344

Post by dw » Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:41 am

I hate to be the facile "both sides" guy, but there was some fairly insane and certainly unsociable behavior on both sides. I would be inclined to limit the reckoning to people who were in positions of authority and leave the twitter gangs out of it.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9345

Post by mgil » Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:42 am

5hout wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:38 am
mgil wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:31 am
Somewhere in this discussion needs to be a side topic of science not being a religion.
Counterpoint: It 'clearly' is a religion for many people, complete with priests/high priests/deacons/lay members and devils. IFL Science is the charismatic evangelist faction, for example.
I mean, that is my point.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9346

Post by Hardartery » Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:18 am

5hout wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:07 am
neandrewthal wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:25 pm How can you forgive and forget when it's not even over? The Covidians in my neck of the woods won't even admit they got anything wrong and just keep going on about the latest incarnation of their narrative: the mass disabling event.

And sure, forgive people who pushed school closures in spring 2020. But 2021? I dunno man.

Or forgive the people who want me to wear a mask for the seasonal flu now?

Forgive someone who supported my being barred from my gym for refusing to provide private medical information? No fucking way. And before you call me bitter and resentful and say I need to let it go, approximately 0% of those people are sorry or even realize they made a mistake. This isn't an anti-vax extremist position. I am still fucking furious at the extremism enacted against me.

The people Emily Oster represents, those who made honest mistakes and regret them are an extremely tiny minority. I haven't personally met one in real life.
I slept on this to make sure I felt the same in the cool light of morning.

Fuck Emily Oster.

She's calling for an almost completely one sided amnesty. She wants an amnesty for herself, her friends, her allies and people she basically agrees with on 95% of topics. Don't worry though "We can leave out the willful purveyors of actual misinformation while forgiving the hard calls that people had no choice but to make with imperfect knowledge", which given her examples and non-examples is pretty clearly anyone she doesn't like or that advocated for opening up more than a week before she decided it was acceptable.

This isn't "let's let reasonable people on both sides move on", it's "let's let my side move on and everyone else stay shunned."

Also, "Given the amount of uncertainty, almost every position was taken on every topic. And on every topic, someone was eventually proved right, and someone else was proved wrong. In some instances, the right people were right for the wrong reasons. In other instances, they had a prescient understanding of the available information." No, fuck this. Some people were right faster and way more often. Other people weren't. Other people still aren't. This is a call to not Bayesian update on this information b/c Emily Oster doesn't like that it would make the people she thinks are smart/she likes look consistently slow to understanding, virtue-signalling (here specifically meaning they didn't speak the truth until it was socially acceptable to, but instead parroted outdated information to show their proper tribal allegiance) cretins.

"But most errors were made by people who were working in earnest for the good of society." WE ARE STILL FUNDING GAIN OF FUNCTION RESEARCH. https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2022/10/20 ... -did-what/

Of course, people did what they felt was right and worked for the good of society, but they often engaged in unforgivably stupid benefit only analysis and derided people that called for cost/benefit analysis. Now she wants a free pass for them, but only the "thems" firmly in her tribe. That's not an amnesty, that's the victors writing history.
I am not particularly in disagreement with either one of you, which is surprising to me on this topic. I think masks gave people something to do to feel like they were at least doing something, and I believe the evidence still points to them being effective against the initial strains of the virus. Shutting the schools, while I get it the first year sort of, that one could really have been let go of faster based on the evidence that they had. I doubt it's going to do any permanent damage to these kids, but it sure made life difficult for a lot of adults unnecessarily.
It's pretty clear that the masks aren't particularly effective at this point, certainly not against the current strains of the virus, and they can stick the idea of me using it to avois the flu. Get bent. I don't take the Flu shot either, and have the Corona vaccine and boosters because I travel. We flattened the curve, the initially stated goal, let's move on. Refusing to play ball with the masks initially was just a dick move by self-centred people. Insisting on stuff like that now is also self-centred on the part of the other extreme - and honestly just feeds an unhealthy neurosis in those neurotically inclined. And Science is absolutely a religion to many, whether they recognize it or not.
Side note with weird tale: Apparently one of my cousins is staunchly anti-vax and anti-mask but for a weird reason. He had house guests from Wuhan in November of 2019 and his whole family got incredibly sick a week later. So his point of view is that they had the OG and he'll be damned if he's going to worry about it. I still haven't gotten an answer as to how and why he had visitors from Wuhan, he does siding and evestrough for a living and has zero ties to China that I am aware of.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9347

Post by 5hout » Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:43 am

mgil wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:42 am
5hout wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:38 am
mgil wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:31 am
Somewhere in this discussion needs to be a side topic of science not being a religion.
Counterpoint: It 'clearly' is a religion for many people, complete with priests/high priests/deacons/lay members and devils. IFL Science is the charismatic evangelist faction, for example.
I mean, that is my point.
You're right, I posted pre-coffee. Never a good idea :)

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Re: Coronavirus

#9348

Post by mbasic » Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:18 pm

Remember: It wasn't made in a lab.



https://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/d ... 102722.pdf
Conclusion

As noted by the WHO Scientific Advisory Group for the Origins of Novel Pathogens, the COVID19 Lancet Commission, and the U.S. Office of the Director of National Intelligence 90-Day Assessment on the COVID-19 Origins, more information is needed to arrive at a more precise, if not a definitive,
understanding of the origins of SARS-CoV-2 and how the COVID-19 pandemic began.225 Governments, leaders, public health officials, and scientists involved in addressing the COVID-19 pandemic and working to prevent future pandemics, must commit to greater transparency, engagement, and responsibility in their efforts.

Based on the analysis of the publicly available information, it appears reasonable to conclude that the COVID-19 pandemic was, more likely than not, the result of a research-related incident. New information, made publicly available and independently verifiable, could change this assessment. However, the hypothesis of a natural zoonotic origin no longer deserves the benefit of the doubt, or the presumption
of accuracy. The following are critical outstanding questions that would need to be addressed to be able to more definitively conclude the origins of SARS-CoV-2:
 What is the intermediate host species for SARS-CoV-2? Where did it first infect humans?
 Where is SARS-CoV-2’s viral reservoir?
 How did SARS-CoV-2 acquire its unique genetic features, such as its furin cleavage site?

Advocates of a zoonotic origin theory must provide clear and convincing evidence that a natural zoonotic spillover is the source of the pandemic, as was demonstrated for the 2002-2004 SARS outbreak. In other words, there needs to be verifiable evidence that a natural zoonotic spillover actually occurred, not simply that such a spillover could have occurred.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9349

Post by BostonRugger » Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:29 am

@5hout post was 10/10.

Re: culpability, the Emily Osters of the world are right beside the Zuckerbergs, Agarwals, etc. Politicians and government agencies aren't exclusively responsible for the wrongs. None of it would be possible without tech and regime media media mouthpieces acting as an opinion making apparatus. I agree that the "twitter class" of various aunties and anons should be absolved, but not those with their hands in the pot.


If we lived in a sane society, people would go to prison for this:

https://theintercept.com/2022/10/31/soc ... ation-dhs/

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Re: Coronavirus

#9350

Post by omaniphil » Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:07 am

5hout wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:07 am Fuck Emily Oster.
I think this is a little unfair, to Emily Oster at least. Oster pushed pretty hard for schools to reopen, very early on, and took a lot of flack from it from a lot of the extremists. The people she's asking amnesty for are the same people who attacked her pretty viciously.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/b ... -vacation/

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Re: Coronavirus

#9351

Post by 5hout » Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:18 am

omaniphil wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:07 am
5hout wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:07 am Fuck Emily Oster.
I think this is a little unfair, to Emily Oster at least. Oster pushed pretty hard for schools to reopen, very early on, and took a lot of flack from it from a lot of the extremists. The people she's asking amnesty for are the same people who attacked her pretty viciously.
Yes, but: The people who attacked her viciously are her nominal friends and she's still only asking for people to forgive them. She didn't learn a meta-lesson from it. As far as I can tell she just wants to go back before when her supposed friends were mean to her, with no broader lessons to be learned (and definitely to exclude those she doesn't like from the forgiveness). We may disagree on this.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9352

Post by SnakePlissken » Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:33 am

Hardartery wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:18 am Side note with weird tale: Apparently one of my cousins is staunchly anti-vax and anti-mask but for a weird reason. He had house guests from Wuhan in November of 2019 and his whole family got incredibly sick a week later. So his point of view is that they had the OG and he'll be damned if he's going to worry about it. I still haven't gotten an answer as to how and why he had visitors from Wuhan, he does siding and evestrough for a living and has zero ties to China that I am aware of.
This is interesting because the week after Christmas 2019 my dad got sick with something and gave it to me and my mom a few days later. We had a runny nose for about a day each and we had these irritating coughs that lasted for over a month (and was very similar to my month+ long cough when I got confirmed Covid a few months ago). My dad's work had this guy Mr. Zhao visit for a week because they were running test articles of finish machined items coming from a plant in China and this dude Mr. Zhao was from Wuhan to do QA inspection/oversight on the parts. When the dude from China was there he had a cough. A lot of my dad's coworkers got sick and so did some of their kids. A few of the kids got it really bad and got tested for both strains of flu that year and strep and they all came up negative. My parent's are 95% convinced we got the original strain. Really wasn't that bad though and by the time my vacation was over and I was back at work I just had a cough usually in the mornings or after eating or drinking. Lingered for about 5-6 weeks and gradually went away.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9353

Post by mouse » Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:57 am

neandrewthal wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:25 pm How can you forgive and forget when it's not even over? The Covidians in my neck of the woods won't even admit they got anything wrong and just keep going on about the latest incarnation of their narrative: the mass disabling event.

And sure, forgive people who pushed school closures in spring 2020. But 2021? I dunno man.

Or forgive the people who want me to wear a mask for the seasonal flu now?

Forgive someone who supported my being barred from my gym for refusing to provide private medical information? No fucking way. And before you call me bitter and resentful and say I need to let it go, approximately 0% of those people are sorry or even realize they made a mistake. This isn't an anti-vax extremist position. I am still fucking furious at the extremism enacted against me.

The people Emily Oster represents, those who made honest mistakes and regret them are an extremely tiny minority. I haven't personally met one in real life.
I'd say this is pretty much my position accept I'm willing to readily admit I actually am bitter and resentful.

I offer no forgiveness as the people who pushed (and who very much still are) for what happened and how it was handled set an incredibly dangerous precedent that in my opinion will never be truly walked back.

I'll also go on record with admitting I'm absolutely an asshole who views people willing to perpetuate this charade in a negative light differently than I may have prior to 2020...


And not to dogpile but agreed on the bleach example being some sort of tell. They are still pretending this shit was more of a threat than it was. The bleach thing was a meme at best...

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Re: Coronavirus

#9354

Post by BostonRugger » Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:56 am

Ok, hear me out on this.

Amnesty as soon as Apple News is made to stop sharing headlines like this, and not a moment earlier.

When Covid-19, Flu and RSV Meet. The Potential for a Tripledemic.”

https://apple.news/AV327p-QRRJ627Q_jBUhzDA

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Re: Coronavirus

#9355

Post by mbasic » Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:18 am

The stuff happening in China is telling .... about how fucked up china is.
If you haven't been keeping up, the gov't been still locking down whole cities (over a few scant infections), and has been full speed ahead with some of their dystopian mitigation policies (red card/green card mobility app thing). People are actively protesting the lockdowns and Rona-policies.

Feel free to post your own theories on what the hell they are doing over there.

Its funny, because it seemed early in the corona-era, a lot of the world's health and disease experts, and the Fauciologists here in the US, embraced what they were doing and/or praised their policies and example on how to handle the epidemic. Now? The chinese govt is clearly crazy fighting what now is a common cold to the point of torpedoing their own econ.

Possibilities:

I think Xi et al is just using the 'Rona as an excuse to sabotage their own economy for a spell to hide what might be an under lying unsustainable economic situation ..... maybe blame their economic contraction, or ungrowing-pains, on the 'Rona, instead of the upper echelon of the pollical structure taking the blame.....I guess so those people stay in power?

Or, maybe the lower level leadership is doing this intentionally to get Xi to fall into disfavor with the CCP/The People ??? (wording?)

Only other thing I can think of, is the gov't pushing the envelope how severely they can control and manipulate the population. They don't want a mass exodus, maybe a way to put further controls on the people? It seems the people in power would like china to become a mega-north-korea, but maybe have to settle and get to a 1984 state first ..... and they are trying out 1983 right now to test the waters and have people become accustomed to being subjugated like this?

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Re: Coronavirus

#9356

Post by dw » Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:46 am

The explanation I read, which didn't sound entirely satisfactory to me, was that:

1. China has a large and vulnerable elderly population, that
2. Has not vaccinated due to some kind of traditional suspicion of ...vaccines? Western medicine? All medicine?
3. And because of this tradition and the deference afforded to the elderly in Asian societies even the CCP doesn't think it can pull off mandatory vaccination. Especially since
4. Their vaccine isn't very good and they don't want to acknowledge that. Therefore...
5. Extreme lockdowns to prevent a bunch of elderly deaths and hospitalizations.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9357

Post by Hardartery » Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:06 am

mbasic wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:18 am The stuff happening in China is telling .... about how fucked up china is.
If you haven't been keeping up, the gov't been still locking down whole cities (over a few scant infections), and has been full speed ahead with some of their dystopian mitigation policies (red card/green card mobility app thing). People are actively protesting the lockdowns and Rona-policies.

Feel free to post your own theories on what the hell they are doing over there.

Its funny, because it seemed early in the corona-era, a lot of the world's health and disease experts, and the Fauciologists here in the US, embraced what they were doing and/or praised their policies and example on how to handle the epidemic. Now? The chinese govt is clearly crazy fighting what now is a common cold to the point of torpedoing their own econ.

Possibilities:

I think Xi et al is just using the 'Rona as an excuse to sabotage their own economy for a spell to hide what might be an under lying unsustainable economic situation ..... maybe blame their economic contraction, or ungrowing-pains, on the 'Rona, instead of the upper echelon of the pollical structure taking the blame.....I guess so those people stay in power?

Or, maybe the lower level leadership is doing this intentionally to get Xi to fall into disfavor with the CCP/The People ??? (wording?)

Only other thing I can think of, is the gov't pushing the envelope how severely they can control and manipulate the population. They don't want a mass exodus, maybe a way to put further controls on the people? It seems the people in power would like china to become a mega-north-korea, but maybe have to settle and get to a 1984 state first ..... and they are trying out 1983 right now to test the waters and have people become accustomed to being subjugated like this?
I have heard that in part that doubling down on Zero Covid is about losing face. Culturally that's more important than pretty much anything, and the government especially doesn't want to admit a mistake because then they lose face. People keep dying in building fires because of Covid stuff like all of the exit doors being padlocked or stupid barriers preventing the firemen from getting to the building. Their economy is going into freefall, the local governemtns are funded by real estate taxes and the model does not really permit for anything but continued growth. Not realistic, every economy has ups and downs so even a natural slowdown has massive negative effects. The developers don't have the money to finish projects that they started because that whole thing is set up like a Ponzi scheme but there has to continue to be new development to keep the economy going. They are taking on massive debt right now to prop that sector up extending a bubble and probably making the crash ultimately worse. People not goimg to work and factories being closed by the lock-downs means destruction for that portion of the economy as well, you can't assemble crap for export over Zoom. The growing Middle Class has finally driven up median wages to the point of making it not an advantage, so wealthy Chinese businessmen are starting to move operations to other eastern countries with lower wages. It's what happens (see Japan, Taiwan, Mexico). But China did not allow for this and that's going to bite them pretty hard soon.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9358

Post by SnakePlissken » Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:00 am

Hardartery wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:06 am The growing Middle Class has finally driven up median wages to the point of making it not an advantage, so wealthy Chinese businessmen are starting to move operations to other eastern countries with lower wages. It's what happens (see Japan, Taiwan, Mexico). But China did not allow for this and that's going to bite them pretty hard soon.
A lot of US companies are ditching manufacturing in China now as well; it'll take years to do this, but the process has begun of weening ourselves off of them. The company I work for is a Fortune 500 and just did our quarterly town hall a few days ago and this was addressed during the Q&A portion. The Eastern Hemisphere manufacturing is over 90% in China right now, but they're already moving some of the work to Vietnam, Thailand and India now because of "political instability" in their words.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9359

Post by Hardartery » Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:02 am

Side thing about the virus. IMy wife now has an allergy to a preservative, and it is fairly directly attributable to being exposed to it too much because of the pandemic. It's in almost all liquid soaps, glues (Which are featured in facemasks among other things), detergents and virtually everything except food (Directly, it is on the packaging wuite often). All the hand washing and use of wipes (Which have a lot of it) triggered it, and it is not the kind of thing that you can fix. She is just going to get progressively more allergic over time with each subsequent exposure. And it isn't just her, quite a few people developed this during the pandemic.

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Re: Coronavirus

#9360

Post by hector » Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:30 am

dw wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:46 am The explanation I read, which didn't sound entirely satisfactory to me, was that:

1. China has a large and vulnerable elderly population, that
2. Has not vaccinated due to some kind of traditional suspicion of ...vaccines? Western medicine? All medicine?
3. And because of this tradition and the deference afforded to the elderly in Asian societies even the CCP doesn't think it can pull off mandatory vaccination. Especially since
4. Their vaccine isn't very good and they don't want to acknowledge that. Therefore...
5. Extreme lockdowns to prevent a bunch of elderly deaths and hospitalizations.
Not calling you out or doubting you. But what did you read thay gave you the impression of #4?

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