Running thread

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hoyeahtop
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Running thread

#1

Post by hoyeahtop » Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:06 am

Any of you run regularly here? I’ve just started running again after about 3 years off. I’m absolutely terrible at it now, but enjoyed my first few runs in a while.

Balancing running and weight training, I’ve heard conflicting things: some people recommend no running and only non-eccentric hard cardio (bike/prowler) and others say any cardio is good.

For me, the ease of putting on some trainers/headphones and getting out for a run means running is probably the only cardio I’d be able to routinely get in. I can easily get out before work or on a lunch at work.

Also a great time to listen to podcasts/audiobooks too, find that I listen a lot more while running than while doing resistance training where I can easily listen to a podcast and remember just about zero information from it!

Apologies if there’s already a topic on this, couldn’t find one searching.

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Re: Running thread

#2

Post by Salahudin » Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:25 am

Really interested in this...

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Re: Running thread

#3

Post by Allentown » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:25 am

Regularly? Not really.
I go through phases. Part of my philosophy is that the very bottom baseline of what is considered "in good shape" is being able to jog a mile without walking. I like to try and be in "pretty good shape" and keep my times under 10 minutes per mile for anywhere between 1 and 3 miles. Not exactly lofty, but I don't enjoy running and I don't think it's all that super important for general health. I at least try and have a yearly run goal recently, though.

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Re: Running thread

#4

Post by Mahendra » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:42 am

At the moment, I run about 2x a week for about 4-5 KM on a treadmill (it's too cold outside for me to run). For me, I don't find that it negatively interferes with weight training.

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Re: Running thread

#5

Post by augeleven » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:06 am

I’ve been trying to crack the running while lifting nut for three-ish years now. I have some foot issues that I picked up hiking harder than I was ready for, that have kept progress to a minimum, but here are some lessons I’ve learned/am trying to learn.
-You don’t need to be trying to get in 25+ miles a week to “run”. Once or twice a week is great.
-Half marathons are boring.
-I get less injured if I try to push one domain harder and keep the other in maintenance
-Don’t be afraid to go slow or take walk breaks.
-Finishing a run with some strides is probably a good idea, especially if you’re focusing on long, slow distances.

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Re: Running thread

#6

Post by asdf » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:25 am

I've been trying to balance running with lifting for decades. Both are equally important to me, and in both domains I like to do pretty much everything. Longish-distance trail runs, 5k tempo runs, track intervals, and stair sprints. Back squats, front squats, deadlifts, snatch, and clean & jerk. Trying to be good in both realms is a fool's errand, but I'm not willing to give up any of it, so I keep plugging away.

There are at least two key problems.

The first is that I'm striving for opposing adaptations. Fast-twitch vs. slow, hypertrophy vs. low bodyweight, etc. Even within each domain, I'm striving for conflicting adaptations (e.g., endurance for long trail runs vs. power for stair sprints). There's science out there about the causes of interference (e.g., mTor vs. AMPK) and how to minimize the negative effects of cardio training on strength and hypertrophy. The recommendations are to avoid heavily eccentric cardio, keep cardio sessions short and non-depleting in terms of glycogen, strength train after cardio -- either immediately after if the cardio was non-depleting, otherwise three to six hours post-recovery. That's what I recall from a couple of years ago. There might be newer recommendations based on more or better evidence.

The second problem is that my legs are often fatigued, and I often fall into overtraining. In addition to running and lifting, I also like box jumps, burpees, and CrossFit-style metcons. For a long time, I followed an upper/lower split and would stack lower-body cardio on the same day as lower-body lifting. For example, I might deadlift followed by stair sprints. Or run in the morning and squat in the afternoon. Or snatch and then do a short run. Occasionally, I would do nothing but a long run on the lower-body day. That worked pretty well in terms of managing fatigue, but didn't allow me to do much Olympic lifting or long, hard runs.

More recently, I shifted to a rotation like this:

1: Long trail run
2: Bench + weighted chins + upperbody metcon
3: Squat + Deadlift
4: Off
5: Track workout (400 or 800 meter intervals)
6: Snatch + Clean & Jerk
7: Bench + upper-body or total-body metcon
8: Off

It's been working pretty well, but I need to get it down to a regular 7-day training week, so that my long trail always falls on Sunday. I have some ideas about how I'm going to do that, and would be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested.

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Re: Running thread

#7

Post by Allentown » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:04 am

asdf wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:25 am I followed an upper/lower split and would stack lower-body cardio on the same day as lower-body lifting. Occasionally, I would do nothing but a long run on the lower-body day. That worked pretty well in terms of managing fatigue
This is what I do as well, and as long as I don't need to do anything heavy lower body within 2 days it seems OK.

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Re: Running thread

#8

Post by psmith » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:50 pm

hoyeahtop wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:06 am some people recommend no running and only non-eccentric hard cardio (bike/prowler)
This is pretty much where I'm at, unless you really like running for its own sake or you have to do it for institutional reasons. (Though non- or limited-eccentric LISS is dandy too.).

I fall into at least one of those "unless"es and maybe both, so I run. Limiting intensity seems to help, losing weight seems to help, but tibial stress fractures have been the limiting factor for me at piddling mileages for like 5 years now so maybe don't take my advice.
asdf wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:25 am It's been working pretty well, but I need to get it down to a regular 7-day training week, so that my long trail always falls on Sunday. I have some ideas about how I'm going to do that, and would be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested.
In for this

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Re: Running thread

#9

Post by AlanMackey » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:05 pm

augeleven wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:06 am I’ve been trying to crack the running while lifting nut for three-ish years now. I have some foot issues that I picked up hiking harder than I was ready for, that have kept progress to a minimum, but here are some lessons I’ve learned/am trying to learn.
-You don’t need to be trying to get in 25+ miles a week to “run”. Once or twice a week is great.
-Half marathons are boring.
-I get less injured if I try to push one domain harder and keep the other in maintenance
-Don’t be afraid to go slow or take walk breaks.
-Finishing a run with some strides is probably a good idea, especially if you’re focusing on long, slow distances.
I've find out that my sweet spot is running a 5K five times a week. That doesn't mean I'm always pushing the envelope, this is more a high frequency, low fatigue thing.

And, since it doesn't take more than 30 minutes and the effort is not that hard, I can do it first thing in the morning or even post-lifting.

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Re: Running thread

#10

Post by asdf » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:37 pm

psmith wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:50 pm
asdf wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:25 am It's been working pretty well, but I need to get it down to a regular 7-day training week, so that my long trail always falls on Sunday. I have some ideas about how I'm going to do that, and would be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested.
In for this
First, I need to explain why things are the way they are.

1: Long trail run
2: Bench + weighted chins + upper-body metcon
3: Squat + Deadlift
4: Off
5: Track workout (400 or 800 meter intervals)
6: Snatch + Clean & Jerk
7: Bench + upper-body or total-body metcon
8: Off

The ordering of first four days should be pretty clear. The long trail run stresses my legs, so I follow it with an upper-body day, and then do a slow-lift lower-body day, then get a day of complete rest before doing two lower-body days back-to-back. I don't repeat the Run, Upper, Lower structure in the second four days because I want/need two days of complete leg rest before my long trail run. I've done the run with just one day of leg rest, but I enjoy it so much more if my legs are completely fresh. Thus, Upper goes last in the second four days. I played with the order of training on Days 5 & 6 and found that the Track workout interferes less with my Olympic lifting than the other way around.

The first thing I tried in order to compress the training into just 7 days was dropping the Off day on Day 4. But that also required that I rearrange the first three days, otherwise I'd be doing three lower-body days in a row (3, 5, and 6).

So the scheme became: Run, Lower, Upper, Run, Lower, Upper, Off.

1: Long trail run
2: Squat + Deadlift
3: Bench + weighted chins + upper-body metcon
4: Track workout (400 or 800 meter intervals)
5: Snatch + Clean & Jerk
6: Bench + upper-body or total-body metcon
7: Off

That didn't go very well. I didn't have much success with squatting and deadlifting the day after my long trail run. Plus, four of the first five days were leg days. Recovery was an issue. But I'll admit that I didn't drop volume or intensity, just removed the Off day. Maybe it would work if I toned things down a bit.

The second thing I tried was combining Days 2 & 3 and dropping the metcon. That allowed me to add back in a day of complete rest. Like this:

1: Long trail run
2: Squat + Bench + Deadlift + Weighted Chins
3: Off
4: Track workout (400 or 800 meter intervals)
5: Snatch + Clean & Jerk
6: Bench + upper-body or total-body metcon
7: Off

Squatting and deadlifting after the long trail run day was still rough, but at least I reclaimed a rest day.

The third option I tried combined Days 5 & 6 into a two-a-day, which allowed me to restore my original four days, like this:

1: Long trail run
2: Bench + weighted chins + upper-body metcon
3: Squat + Deadlift
4: Off
5: Track workout (AM), Snatch + Clean & Jerk (PM)
6: Bench + upper-body metcon
7: Off

Both of these last two structures worked better for me than just eliminating the mid-week Off day. Cutting out a training day rather than an Off day forced me to reduce the total amount of work, since I can only get so much done on the the days when I've combined two workouts into one.

A final option I've yet to try would be to just drop the second upper-body day, like this:

1: Long trail run
2: Bench + weighted chins + upper-body metcon
3: Squat + Deadlift
4: Off
5: Track workout (400 or 800 meter intervals)
6: Snatch + Clean & Jerk
7: Off

That doesn't preserve my two days of leg rest before my long trail run, but maybe that's okay given the spacing of the leg days earlier in the week and the two complete days of rest -- and the elimination of the total-body metcon that I sometimes did on the original day 7.

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Re: Running thread

#11

Post by hoyeahtop » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:40 am

A lot of the podcasts I’ve listened to about runners strength training they tend to recommend it on a hard running day after a run? I have no idea what their squat/DL numbers are however.

The prescription for getting better at running seems to look like getting in a lot of slow miles through distance and recovery runs, then one-two speed day or timed run.

I think I’m going to keep adding days as a beginner, alternating between 5-8k timed runs and slow recovery jogs until I feel like I start hitting a wall at which point I’ll add some slower distance runs in there. Have a few 5k-20km routes plotted near my house and near work which I will be able to routinely hit.

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Re: Running thread

#12

Post by hoyeahtop » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:43 am

@asdf that very last routine you posted there looks quite a good balance.

Do you find two running days a week enough to keep progressing?

I’ve heard good things about slow, recovery runs for adding in mileage and aiding recovery (would fit in well on your Upper day, time allowing of course).

I’m no expert however, only been on 3 slow runs in 2020, but I do get obsessed with learning so have listened to a good 20 hours of podcasts and interviews on running theory now.

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Re: Running thread

#13

Post by asdf » Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:14 am

hoyeahtop wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:43 am Do you find two running days a week enough to keep progressing?
No. But squatting and deadlifting one day per week isn't enough for me to progress significantly on those, and snatching and cleaning & jerking once per week isn't enough for me to progress on those either!

I'm doing too many disparate things too infrequently to make much progress. But that's okay, because...

1. Just being able to do all of these things is immensely satisfying and enjoyable.
2. My overpopulated program is allowing me to maintain performance levels in each domain that I'm happy with.
hoyeahtop wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:43 am I’ve heard good things about slow, recovery runs for adding in mileage and aiding recovery (would fit in well on your Upper day, time allowing of course).
I have plenty of time, but adding more running slots isn't going work for me, even if it's slow. I really enjoy walking, however, and try to get in a couple of those each week as well. If I were going to add anything it would be more CrossFit-style metcons, because those are really fun.
hoyeahtop wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:43 am have listened to a good 20 hours of podcasts and interviews on running theory now.
You might enjoy these books: Jack Daniel's classic Daniel's Running Formula" and Steve Magness's The Science of Running.

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Re: Running thread

#14

Post by augeleven » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:00 am

@asdf, have you tried or would you ever consider trying an alternating blocks approach? Something like 4-8 weeks lifting focused/running maintenance, then 4-8 weeks of the opposite?

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Re: Running thread

#15

Post by asdf » Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:39 pm

augeleven wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:00 am have you tried or would you ever consider trying an alternating blocks approach? Something like 4-8 weeks lifting focused/running maintenance, then 4-8 weeks of the opposite?
Yes, I've done that in the past, and it's a smart approach. If only I were smart enough to follow a smart approach. :lol:

Thanks for the nudge.

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Re: Running thread

#16

Post by hoyeahtop » Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:13 am

I suppose if you’re at a point where you’re happy to maintain and enjoy the activities you do! Those metcons I was reading did sound fun also.

Thanks for the book recommendations, audiobooks/podcasts are the thing for me now with the amount of time I spend out walking and now running. But will invest in some surely in the future.

I’m thinking in the future I will probably do a block based approach once I get to a spot where I’m happy with my running pace/distance ill focus more on lifting and maintaining that and vice versa as augeleven says. Sounds a smart approach!

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Re: Running thread

#17

Post by Wingspan » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:02 pm

I've started running again after roughly a years break for a niggling knee injury.

I'm giving myself a year to lose a further 10kg and run a sub20 5k. I'm forgoing the complication of trying to progress my lifts while on a cut and improving my running. So I'm happy to maintain my current pathetic lifts while getting slimmer and fitter.

Tbh once I'm at 90kg and pretty fit I'll see how I feel overall and I'll see if I can even be bothered increasing my lifts. At 45 I might be strong enough and fit enough for life in general.

However I'm fascinated to know if I can keep a decent 5k time whilst on a slow bulk. Not sure I can trust myself on a bulk again tho!

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Re: Running thread

#18

Post by perman » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:32 am

augeleven wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:06 am -Finishing a run with some strides is probably a good idea, especially if you’re focusing on long, slow distances.
What do you mean "finishing a run with some strides"? You mean running quickly at the end? If so, why?

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Re: Running thread

#19

Post by augeleven » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:00 am

Strides are short sub max efforts: like working up to about 90% effort in a10-30 second effort. The idea is that they help you maintain your neuro efficiency and technique with a minimal fatigue cost

ETA:
https://strengthrunning.com/2012/10/what-are-strides/

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Re: Running thread

#20

Post by hoyeahtop » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:59 pm

Slowly working on increasing my weekly mileage without focussing on pace is my goal for the first few weeks. And hoping the pace just stops naturally as I get used to running more. Trying to ignore all of the interesting sounding things like intervals, tempo runs etc. for now.

Have a few audiobooks to listen to (free trial on audible): Endure, and Eat to Run. Tip: if you then go to cancel your Audible membership and say the reason is it’s too expensive, you get an option as you’re cancelling to get the next 3 months half price. At which point I’ll probably cancel as it’s very pricey.

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