Running thread

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iamsmu
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Re: Running thread

#61

Post by iamsmu » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:34 am

scotty wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:09 am I'll also say, since I've started training like this I've found my running interferes a lot less with my lifting and I'm slowly but surely improving which wasn't happening when I used to run every session flat out. I don't do any faster runs (sub 5:00min/km pace) right now so no idea if I'm actually becoming faster in an absolute sense, but runs around a 6-7min/km pace now feel very easy (I've been doing this for about six months now). I might have to do a couple of weeks of speedwork and do a 5K.
I have no doubt that MAF running would cause a lot less interference with squats. It's pretty close to brisk walking.

But MAF sounds like pseudo scientific fitness cult stuff. I'll read more. But right now I'm very skeptical. And I just don't want to run 10 minute miles. It feels awful and it's boring. . . . I'll read more. . . . .

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Re: Running thread

#62

Post by asdf » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:14 am

I tried a running-slow protocol about 15 years ago. I think it was more Galloway zones than Maffetone MAF. Regardless, there was some heart rate I was not supposed to exceed on my long "runs," which I found impossible, perhaps because of the extreme heat of my environment. I spent a month mostly walking, which made no sense to me, since I could easily run for 2 hours straight at a decent pace prior to starting the program.

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Re: Running thread

#63

Post by psmith » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:23 am

I think Maffetone's explanations are probably wrong, but his recommendations are pretty good. If you want more rigorous arguments for low-intensity endurance work I'd suggest Training for the Uphill Athlete and Steven Seiler's papers as good places to start.

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Re: Running thread

#64

Post by dw » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:47 pm

I recently started jogging, 2x a week for 30 minutes per session. I seem to be experiencing some patellar tendinitis as a result. It's not a big deal as long as it will eventually go away.

Have you guys had problems with this? At some point if it persists I'll buy an air bike or something like that.

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Re: Running thread

#65

Post by augeleven » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:35 pm

How recently? How bad is it? I have found that my joints and ligaments take much longer to adapt to training load than my muscles or aerobic system. I have never had much luck training through pain, it tends to lead to bigger issues in the mid to long term. Everybody is different, but for me it’s not a big deal if I get an ache mid-run, provides it doesn’t cause me to change form. I know I’m in trouble when I’m achey in the morning. For me that is a sign to back off intensity.
Maybe take an easy week to let the tendons heal?
I’ve had some success in running for an hour twice a week, slowly progressing through run:walk intervals.

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Re: Running thread

#66

Post by dw » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:55 pm

I started 4 weeks ago with 1 session @ 20 mins, then the next week 2 @ 30, then the next 2 @ 30 but starting to force myself to keep a pace of 6 mph.

I don't feel the pain while jogging or walking. Just during my sedentary life when standing up and especially when going downstairs.

At this point I'm expecting it to subside without having to cut the jogging but we'll see.

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Re: Running thread

#67

Post by dw » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:23 am

Didn't think it was worth starting a thread for this so I'll just put it here...

My current program calls for HIIT and LISS. At this point I believe the LISS has been beneficial for my strength training (I'm mainly thinking of interset recovery). I tried HIIT once (sprints) and the DOMS was quite bad and, more importantly, felt very much like lifting DOMS. So I decided to pass on it for a while for fear that it will interfere with leg recovery.

My question is, what kind of carryover if any do you guys think HIIT conditioning has to training?

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Re: Running thread

#68

Post by OrderInChaos » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:21 pm

dw wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:23 am My question is, what kind of carryover if any do you guys think HIIT conditioning has to training?
IME, HIIT isn't useful to lifting at all. It can be detrimental if you do too much volume and interfere with lifting. Flat-ground, max effort sprints are pretty unwise for lifters from an injury prevention perspective. If you want to do full-effort, anaerobic style 30:90 interval work, a rower is a way better bet. Or a bike... etc. When I've done these I haven't seen improvements in running economy or mid-distance times (2mi, 5k) (also, duh), but my RPE on everything less ballistic improves. HR stays lower during tempo, etc...

Heavy hitters in the field say about the same, but more eloquently (Alex Viada and Nuckols come to mind) - if you're a heavy squatter, your squat sessions are better stimulus for lifting than hill sprints ever will be. LISS will improve your aerobic fitness as well or better, with minimal interference effect. Rest-between-sets recovery and everything but executing comp lifts is basically aerobic-related more than 30:90 related.

###

Separately, if you care about running performance as well, you can improve that with a variety of other techniques:

Strides are the easiest and least intensive; 30-60 second accelerations during a standard LISS run. Don't do more than 3-6 per session of 30-45min LISS.

Aerobic intervals are great; 3-5min (5's better) of very high effort non-sprints - actual running, but with the same-ish mechanics as your long runs. Rest 2-4 minutes between bouts, 3-6 repeats per session.

Tempo repeats are similar but a little longer; 6-12min of moderate-high effort bouts of running. Mile repeats or 800's fit this category. Full recoveries (3-6min between bouts), 2-4 repeats per session.

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Re: Running thread

#69

Post by dw » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:45 pm

@OrderInChaos

I read Nuckol's article on LISS after reading your post. He does seem to firmly prefer LISS and recommend it, although he suggests HIIT should have some carryover to heavy singles and doubles.

It does look like running as opposed to other forms of LISS has an interference effect though. Probably mild at my level of jogging.

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Re: Running thread

#70

Post by asdf » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:37 pm

dw wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:45 pm It does look like running as opposed to other forms of LISS has an interference effect though. Probably mild at my level of jogging.
Conventional wisdom (which you probably already know) is to avoid eccentric work as much as possible. That's why people favor pushing the prowler, rowing, or biking. Downhill running would be one of the worst things you could do. Sprinting stairs would probably be the best form of running, especially for HIIT -- although even there you have to walk back down.

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Re: Running thread

#71

Post by hoyeahtop » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:20 pm

dw wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:47 pm I recently started jogging, 2x a week for 30 minutes per session. I seem to be experiencing some patellar tendinitis as a result. It's not a big deal as long as it will eventually go away.

Have you guys had problems with this? At some point if it persists I'll buy an air bike or something like that.
You could be experiencing a type of “runners knee”.

How is your running form? Knee pain in the knee cap can be caused from over striding and heel striking so my first advice would be to up your cadence to about 180 steps a min, try to land your feet under your hips, and this should hopefully make landing on your mid foot feel natural.

I had knee problems with a different type of runners knee (ITBS) but just remember all the advice I read for other injuries too.

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Re: Running thread

#72

Post by dw » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:16 am

Thanks, I will look into form.

I started to experience this even after my first jogs, which were very slow, so I'm inclined to think my knees need to adapt to some jogging versus zero jogging rather than that I'm actively misusing them.

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Re: Running thread

#73

Post by PC » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:55 am

dw wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:47 pm I recently started jogging, 2x a week for 30 minutes per session. I seem to be experiencing some patellar tendinitis as a result. It's not a big deal as long as it will eventually go away.

Have you guys had problems with this? At some point if it persists I'll buy an air bike or something like that.
hoyeahtop wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:20 pm How is your running form? [...] first advice would be to up your cadence to about 180 steps a min
I wanted to say exactly this. Running/jogging is something that we've been doing our whole lives (well, at least started at an early age), and form gets neglected.

Increasing cadence alone can fix a host of issues and is a great place to start.

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Re: Running thread

#74

Post by OrderInChaos » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:05 pm

PC wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:55 am Increasing cadence alone can fix a host of issues and is a great place to start.
Along with this, I like the recommendations here for more, very simple things to work with.
https://completehumanperformance.com/20 ... es-part-2/
Viada DrillsShow
Recommended running drills:

Former sprinters may wish to take a deep breath before reading these drills- these are NOT speed drills, they are efficiency drills, aimed at making an inefficient runner (most of us) into an efficient runner. The first three drills are “passive” drills that can be done during ANY run. The second three are “active” drills that should be done on drill days only.

Passive drill 1: Leading with the chest. For this drill, the runner focuses on one thing only- keeping the chest puffed out as far as possible, as if one was attempting to break the finish line tape. Doing this keeps the head up, spine erect, shoulders back, and prevents the feet from striking far out in front of the body, while maintaining enough forward lean to continue movement. A sagging head and shoulders will create tremendous upper body discomfort after an extended period of time, and result in a floppy, inefficient gait.

Passive drill 2: Arms like Optimus (Prime). So named by an athlete who had a way with words in reference to the old Transformers toys- the goal here is to keep the arms nearly fixed against the body, elbows at around 80-90 degrees. The athlete should not be “punching” the air with his or her arms while running; the rotation be slight and should start at the shoulders with the arms moving relatively little against the sides. Many sprinters may find this counterintuitive, but one need only watch Ultra runners (models of efficiency) to see this solid torso at work. Those who aren’t familiar with the race below may wish to do a Google search on “Badwater Ultra” first, lest you underestimate what these individuals are doing.

Passive drill 3: Running on thin ice. Pounding the ground imparts tremendous strain on the body- the objective of a heavier than average runner is to minimize this as much as possible. Over-exaggerate your joints’ absorption of the impact and try to land as silently as possible- this encourages a midfoot impact and prevents overstriding.

Active drill 1: Strides. Simple 100 meter runs consisting of a slow jog, accelerating to a full run at the halfway mark (not sprint), then slowing to a slow jog. The runner then returns to the starting point at a jog. These are excellent for marginally improving speed, stretching the legs, and (most importantly, to most athletes) encouraging the runner to maintain a jog AFTER a maximum effort burst.

Active drill 2: Sandal run. This is not to advocate barefoot running, but for many individuals these are highly instructive. Bring either an old ratty pair of running shoes or plain sandals to the track (or wherever you choose to run). If using shoes, do NOT put your heel inside the shoe, wear them as a clog. Simply trot for 50-100 meters at a time while keeping the shoe on. Do not “jam” the toe into the front, just take care to keep the shoe on at all times. To do this drill successfully, the runner will need to strike with their midfoot, NOT overstride, and land carefully, all key elements of an efficient stride. If the athlete feels like the movement is a bit of an overly delicate prance, this is a sign it is being done correctly.

Active drill 3: Quick feet hill climbs. Any moderate hill will do- begin this run about 50 meters from the base and approach at a constant moderate jog. As the hill begins, attempt to double your cadence and halve your stride (for more gradual hills, a 25% reduction in each may be more appropriate). The objective is to maintain a constant ENERGY EXPENDITURE, and not be completely winded at the top. This is useful for improving cadence/turnover, and highly instructive for many larger runners who often expend disproportionate amounts of their energy stores on even relatively minor climbs by taking large, loping steps which consume a great deal of energy.

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Re: Running thread

#75

Post by OrderInChaos » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:22 am

Anyone else see that nSuns did Smolov-for-Deadlifts and ran ~35-40mpw and got some pretty sick results?
Long Ass RedditShow
Last edited by OrderInChaos on Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Running thread

#76

Post by Hanley » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:29 am

OrderInChaos wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:22 amSmolov-for-Deadlifts and ran ~35-40mpw
Holy shitballs.

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Re: Running thread

#77

Post by iamsmu » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:02 pm

OrderInChaos wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:22 am Anyone else see that nSuns did Smolov-for-Deadlifts and ran ~35-40mpw and got some pretty sick results?
That's a lot of running!

I plugged in my numbers in his spreadsheet. The volume on weeks 4 and 5 is the only thing that looks bad. With a lower 1RM Smolov doesn't look that scary. When you get to that guys numbers, it just looks sick. When you add in 40 mpw of running, it's hard to understand.

Edit: And then I ran an actual max (not some 88% training max) into this calculator and saw a big hell no.

https://www.smolovjr.com/smolov-jr-calculator/

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Re: Running thread

#78

Post by augeleven » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:43 pm

OrderInChaos wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:22 am Anyone else see that nSuns did Smolov-for-Deadlifts and ran ~35-40mpw and got some pretty sick results?
Long Ass RedditShow
Didn’t r/running give him the ole Alex Viada treatment, and now deleted all those posts?
Deadlifting 600 and running a 6 minute mile is high on my pipe dream goals (get it? *nudge nudge* get it? although I’ll “settle” for 550 and completing a trail 50k

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Re: Running thread

#79

Post by iamsmu » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:24 pm

augeleven wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:43 pm
OrderInChaos wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:22 am Anyone else see that nSuns did Smolov-for-Deadlifts and ran ~35-40mpw and got some pretty sick results?

Didn’t r/running give him the ole Alex Viada treatment, and now deleted all those posts?
Deadlifting 600 and running a 6 minute mile is high on my pipe dream goals (get it? *nudge nudge* get it? although I’ll “settle” for 550 and completing a trail 50k
Was he lying about the running? Or was he using fake weights? He sure is strong for someone so thin.

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Re: Running thread

#80

Post by Hanley » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:53 pm

iamsmu wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:02 pm
OrderInChaos wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:22 am Anyone else see that nSuns did Smolov-for-Deadlifts and ran ~35-40mpw and got some pretty sick results?
That's a lot of running!

I plugged in my numbers in his spreadsheet. The volume on weeks 4 and 5 is the only thing that looks bad. With a lower 1RM Smolov doesn't look that scary. When you get to that guys numbers, it just looks sick. When you add in 40 mpw of running, it's hard to understand.

Edit: And then I ran an actual max (not some 88% training max) into this calculator and saw a big hell no.

https://www.smolovjr.com/smolov-jr-calculator/
I'm John, and I'm a Smolov survivor.

That program is brutal man.

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