Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

[DannyP]

So I've always had issues with my heels lifting. For years I said "fuck it" since it didn't seem to be costing me much. Anyways, my left knee's been bothering me for a bit, and it feels as though there's too much load on it at times (not sure of a better way to describe it), though I think it's muscular vs. tendon/ligament since it's more of an ache, but I digress...

I decided to try some different shoes and got some AdiPowers. Should have helped, since I have slightly long legs, and squat high bar. But it seems not to have, heels still leaving floor.

Today I tried a handful of different stance widths and toe angles and, in all cases, my right heel leaves the floor, and my knee tracks inward of my foot. All seems to stem from my ankle, leaving me to three possible conclusions:

1. I just need to try harder. N/A, this isn't the SS forum.

2. I have ankle mobility issues and need to work those out.

3. My arches are collapsing and I need some additional support.

If it's #2, any suggestions on exercises to do to loosen it properly? And, if it's #3, any recommendations on arch support?

Lift starts around 36sec for each of these (sorry, since YouTube got "better" I can't figure out editing for shit):

[PC]

The amount of time you spend standing around with the bar on your back makes these painful to watch. I would generally recommend against it, but especially so when filming form checks (even more so if you don't know how to edit).

But yeah, pronation. Forget the Rippetoan stance. Try pointing your feet more forward and narrowing your stance, forcing your knees to track above/outside your feet. Kelly Starrett (sorry, Exodus gods) is an extreme example, but shows whats possible in the realm of squat form.

This is at least what I'd try/recommend to fix the ankle/knee relationship. I have no experience with excessive ankle pronation, or even the mechanism behind it, but i do believe it should be corrected.

[Wilhelm]

The amount of time you spend standing around with the bar on your back makes these painful to watch.

100%
I've mentioned this before, in one of OPs's other threads.

Try focusing on feeling strong from before you lift the bar off the hooks.
Get braced, and focus on a strong, tightly braced walkout as goal one.

If you arrive at your stance feeling strong, you should be able to squat in short order.
I'm a re-breather, as i do not hold my breath the entire walkout and then squat.
I think that may be more of a mono lift thing.
I use one breath and brace to get to my stance, then a quick shallow exhale, and another breathe and brace.

The walkout and set up sets the stage for the whole squat. It's should be viewed as an acheivement in itself.
A prerequisite for a good squat rep.

In any case, you should feel basically ready to go from the moment you lift the bar off the hooks.

Get it.

Otherwise, you are just wasting energy standing there with the bar.
I think that even affects your ability to breathe and brace.

[5hout]

0: As other's have suggested, you're spending way too much time standing there getting tired before squatting. It makes me think you're not tight when you walk out, or aren't tight when you squat. Maybe you're adapted to it, but it seems like you're getting in your head standing there with the weight feeling heavy.


1: Where does the weight feel on your feet? I see a tiny bit of heel pop, which makes me think the weight isn't mid foot or back of mid foot, but forward of mid foot. Weight forward of mid foot means your taint is pressed closed, knees pressed in. Try rocking slightly back and squatting off your heels (not all the way, just until you feel the weight in the back third of your foot) at a moderate weight.


2: This is really the same as the above point: Sit back into the bottom, it seems like you're getting depth by leaning forward and going super deep, but you could get your butt to the same depth by sitting back into the bottom, opening your legs and rocketing out of the bottom. I know it's a meme at this point but: Open. Your. Taint. It will also, probably, fix what seems to be a little hyper-extension of your back at the bottom.

EDIT: When all you have is a hammer... something something watch this video, squat better.

[DannyP]

Need to shorten my setup. Wasn't always that way, but it's become almost my "psych myself up for the lift" time and I need to stop. More recently I also get into my head about trying to set up to avoid "landing on" my left knee. Ironically, by trying to not "rush" the lift I'm certain y'all are right and I'm making things worse.

I used to sit back, when I did low bar, but honesty haven't tried it with high. Definitely should. Easiest of the form tweaks to try. @5hout, what would be your thought on heel height here? Should I use the new AdiPowers or go back to the old, shallower, PowerLifts?

How would I self-diagnose any ankle mobility issues? In doing these form tweaks, I don't want to overlook an obvious potential culprit. Same thing with arch-caving. What makes me suspicious of that is, when air-squatting, in order to keep my ankles from caving, I have to be on the balls of my feet (as though I had like a 2in heel). But again, I don't know what any of this really "means" insofar as fixing my squat.

No matter what, I think the dreaded de-load is in order here. I've dropped 315 on doubles three or four times over the last month, and that's a weight I was previously squatting for reps, so this is definitely a mental/technique thing (as well as needing to get my knee to feel better).

[mbasic]

IMO:
You are trying to stay too upright with the body segments and mobility that you have.
You may not be able/suited to squat real upright like that.

Taller heels and/or "fixing" the ankle mobility thing may not be the answer..... MAY not.

The more your knees go forward, the more everything else above your knee (the rest of your body) will go forwards;
without an opposite rearward component to the "forwarding" of the lower leg, you'll just still be forward with your balance.
Whether or not you are running out of ankle ROM .... you're whole balance maybe just too far forward with that squat style.

[slowmotion]

Do you have the same problems with less weight on the bar?

[Wilhelm]

IMO:
You are trying to stay too upright with the body segments and mobility that you have.
You may not be able/suited to squat real upright like that.

Taller heels and/or "fixing" the ankle mobility thing may not be the answer..... MAY not.

The more your knees go forward, the more everything else above your knee (the rest of your body) will go forwards;
without an opposite rearward component to the "forwarding" of the lower leg, you'll just still be forward with your balance.
Whether or not you are running out of ankle ROM .... you're whole balance maybe just too far forward with that squat style.

Do you think he should low bar?
I know very little about high bar, is why i ask you.

Still think the basics of tightness and walkout technique absolutely need to be addressed, and not lost in any of these other aspects.
First things first, imo.

But yeah, i'm curious if he'd be better of w/ low bar.
I'm just not in a position to say.

Medium bar? lol

[mbasic]

He (probably...might?) should to sit back more, so his knees do not go forward so much.
So yes, "Low bar" mechanics .... I don't care where the bar is. If low position makes it happen so be it.

I also think some weird shit CAN (not always) starts to happen with certain body types when you go (too) deep.
Shit shifts around in the bottom, back might have to relax.

[DannyP]

Low bar is a non starter. I did it for a few years and it killed my shoulders. I also find doing low bar without a belt exceedingly difficult at heavy weights (and a belt is also a non starter - hernia). I do prefer being upright since I tend to maintain torso rigidity by really tightening my spinal erectors, rather than through a valsalva (see: hernia).

That is all to say that I might try “sitting back” more (low bar mechanics) but not to the extent that I’d have a low bar-type back angle.

[5hout]

I used to sit back, when I did low bar, but honesty haven't tried it with high. Definitely should. Easiest of the form tweaks to try. @5hout, what would be your thought on heel height here? Should I use the new AdiPowers or go back to the old, shallower, PowerLifts?

How would I self-diagnose any ankle mobility issues? In doing these form tweaks, I don't want to overlook an obvious potential culprit. Same thing with arch-caving. What makes me suspicious of that is, when air-squatting, in order to keep my ankles from caving, I have to be on the balls of my feet (as though I had like a 2in heel). But again, I don't know what any of this really "means" insofar as fixing my squat.

I think the make of squat shoes will be irrelevant, once you get sit back and get depth by opening yourself up. This isn't a high bar or low bar issue, however you squat you will have the same issue. You could lock your back angle earlier and squat more upright and still sit back into the bottom more. In fact, a slightly more vertical back angle will probably force you to sit back or fall over. Your knees are wayyyyy out in front of your toesies, which to me seems to hint at a weight forward of mid foot.

Look at it another way: Your current squat has an ass-to-grass knee angle, because you're bent over so much because your hips are close. Open the hips up, stand up a bit more and you'll get depth (hip under knee) a lot more naturally. You currently seem to be doing ATG knee strain for barely getting depth, working real hard for no point. I think if you sit back into it, get your weight mid-foot or slightly back of mid-foot your squat to depth will feel way higher and easier for you.



In the screencap from the Coan Vid, look at the difference in shin angle. You have ankle mobility problems? A more vertical shin angle from sitting back massively relieves these ankle issues.

[DannyP]

You've certainly sold me on trying it!

Where would you start as far as stance width/toe angle as well as gaze/neck angle?

[5hout]

You've certainly sold me on trying it!

Where would you start as far as stance width/toe angle as well as gaze/neck angle?

I would change as little as possible, if only because where you're at today is the easiest place to start with. Maybe bring your feet in a tiny bit? Depends on how consistent you are with your squat width. Insta-edit: Also, I find that when I don't look down I hyper-extend my back, but that's just me. I would look down, at a place 20 feet in front of your feet. I don't think this matters much, if at all.

[DannyP]

Rack is against a wall so I’ll basically be looking at the same thing. I’m tempted to keep looking a little up since I think that neck angle helps create the bar shelf... but I could be full of shit on that front, too.

Edit: I was just going back through some old form check clips and here's the funny thing: When I used to squat low bar (albeit, with a belt), I actually got better depth than I do at the moment. That seems a bit counterintuitive, and I'm going to guess it's got more to do with the mechanics (back vs. down) than bar position.

[DannyP]

Yea, so ironically, when I first started squatting high bar, the holdover muscle memory from squatting low bar had me sitting back a lot more, and hitting depth way more easily... Found one of the clips from a couple of years ago when I changed positions:

[SquatsALot]

I have similar issues with getting onto my toes for two years now, and I've basically completely stopped trying to fix it (and my coach doesn't want me to waste productive training time by tinkering, when I need to get a lot stronger before it matters). But, I did find that, for me, depth is highly correlated with stance width. Some days, I'm not hitting depth easily for reasons, and I just bring in my feet, and I'll have a much easier time dropping my ass down to depth, especially if that day happens to be my high bar slot. High bar for me requires a much narrower stance than low bar.

For me, your high bar stance would be extremely wide, at least in my current setup where low bar is set up for volume/light work and I want a relatively deep ROM.

These guys' advice is probably way better.

[BenM]

My rack is against a wall too, but I still squat with my back to the wall so I have things to fix my gaze on - any reason you couldn't?

Years ago I used to squat facing the wall. I tried putting post it notes on the wall with cues like 'knees out' and stuff. Didn't help much

[DannyP]

My rack is against a wall too, but I still squat with my back to the wall so I have things to fix my gaze on - any reason you couldn't?

Years ago I used to squat facing the wall. I tried putting post it notes on the wall with cues like 'knees out' and stuff. Didn't help much

Safety. I have a fairly cheap, light rack and if I were to re-rack hard into the uprights I could tip the thing if going away from the wall.

[DannyP]

Today I made a concerted effort to initiate with "ass back" instead of "ass down" and it felt a bit better, hitting depth* seemed easier and, perhaps most important, I didn't hesitate at the top, thinking "need to do this right or my knee will feel like shit" each rep. Still experiencing the same issues with foot lifting/moving around for most sets, though. However, when forcing myself to straighten my feet more, the motion didn't feel nearly as awkward as when trying to squat straight down.

Ok, where do I go from here in terms of the ankle/arch cave (besides try to straighten feet more)? Do I need to have more "sit back" action?

*Not getting that deep, but less pain getting to similar depth.

Feet as straight as possible:



A bit less straight:



And from the side, where it seems my bar path isn't totally straight, but a lot less elliptical (did this at very end, hence wobble at top):

[asdf]

Your stance is too wide, by a good bit. Go back to step one.