Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

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DannyP
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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#21

Post by DannyP » Sat May 02, 2020 7:58 am

In both clips? Because in the second it's significantly narrower... The trouble I have is feeling completely stable, and catching a bounce in the hole, when I narrow too much.

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CtMcBride
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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#22

Post by CtMcBride » Sat May 02, 2020 9:10 am

Looks like you're not externally rotating your femurs very much.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#23

Post by DannyP » Sat May 02, 2020 9:49 am

CtMcBride wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 9:10 am Looks like you're not externally rotating your femurs very much.
Hmm. Haven’t considered that. Probably a combo of trying to concentrate on sitting back and keeping feet straighter. It’sa lot easier to simultaneously think about opening the femurs whole going down than going back.

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CtMcBride
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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#24

Post by CtMcBride » Sat May 02, 2020 11:14 am

To be clear, I don't think you were doing it before the straighter feet and sitting back modifications, either. Possibly a confusion/conflation of external rotation and abduction, which I find to be pretty common.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#25

Post by DannyP » Sat May 02, 2020 11:38 am

That I’m not sure the difference between the two suggests you are likely correct.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#26

Post by CtMcBride » Sat May 02, 2020 2:05 pm

In your squat stance, with your knees straight, turn your knees to point away from each other (rotate from the hip.) That's external rotation. You should be able to get at least a little bit of movement without moving your feet.

If you instead try to move your knees away from each other, you're attempting abduction, and shouldn't really be able to do that with your feet stationary.

Lack of external rotation can make your stance look too wide, which is not always the case, and manifest as ankle eversion.(rolling inward).

It's also entirely possible that the shape of your hip/femur interface makes a very narrow forward-facing stance and knee position more manageable, but I find that less prevalent.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#27

Post by DannyP » Sat May 02, 2020 3:59 pm

Ohhhhhh. Shit. I get it now! We’ll have to see how well I can hold that with weighted bar, but when just standing in my kitchen I feel a big difference in terms of ones tracking over toes! Used to think mine just didn’t quite “line up,” lol.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#28

Post by asdf » Sat May 02, 2020 7:23 pm

Did you watch the Everett video and go through the steps? Are you able to squat perfectly without a bar? With just the bar? With 60kg? With 100kg?

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#29

Post by DannyP » Sat May 02, 2020 8:55 pm

asdf wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 7:23 pm Did you watch the Everett video and go through the steps? Are you able to squat perfectly without a bar? With just the bar? With 60kg? With 100kg?
I did, but what I couldn't figure out was whether it was applicable 1:1 if performing a sit-back squat, instead of a pure Olympic squat (for which he's demonstrating the stance)? I'm assuming that the objective, of knees tracking over toes, still applies, but that the stance specifics may differ.

As to your other question, I'm not entirely sure, as I rarely film warm-ups. My guess would be that my absolute best form occurs around 185lbs, but I'll let you know on Monday.

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CtMcBride
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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#30

Post by CtMcBride » Sat May 02, 2020 9:46 pm

DannyP wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 3:59 pm Ohhhhhh. Shit. I get it now! We’ll have to see how well I can hold that with weighted bar, but when just standing in my kitchen I feel a big difference in terms of ones tracking over toes! Used to think mine just didn’t quite “line up,” lol.
Cool man. Hope it helps. Standard caveat: don’t load up near maximal weights with new technique. You’ll be loading structures in ways they’re not adapted to.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#31

Post by DannyP » Sun May 03, 2020 5:14 am

CtMcBride wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 9:46 pm
DannyP wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 3:59 pm Ohhhhhh. Shit. I get it now! We’ll have to see how well I can hold that with weighted bar, but when just standing in my kitchen I feel a big difference in terms of ones tracking over toes! Used to think mine just didn’t quite “line up,” lol.
Cool man. Hope it helps. Standard caveat: don’t load up near maximal weights with new technique. You’ll be loading structures in ways they’re not adapted to.
For sure! Monday is more of a volume day, so good time to try it out.

I also think I've come up with the perfect cue for myself, tell me if this makes sense: begin every rep by telling myself to try and hold a pencil between my butt cheeks.

When "air squatting" I seem to be better at holding the position if I initiate the rotation by "pulling" from the back rather than "rolling" from the hip. Will have to try with actual weights tomorrow, though.

Edit: And another retroactive gripe about SS dogmatism: The advice I received was ALWAYS "shove your knees out" and NEVER "figure out how to rotate your femurs out." Apparently, there's a difference. Apparently, it has to be explained to some people (me). Apparently, you can't really cue them the same. Apparently their universal instructions aren't so universal.
Last edited by DannyP on Sun May 03, 2020 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#32

Post by asdf » Sun May 03, 2020 11:22 am

DannyP wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 8:55 pm performing a sit-back squat, instead of a pure Olympic squat
Ah. I was assuming that you wanted to squat "Olympic" style, but I see that your OP only mentioned "high bar." Regardless, I think f you can master the mechanics of an "Olympic" squat, then you'll be able to modify it easily to perform a more hips-back high-bar squat. When I go into a squat session with low-back fatigue, I often push my hips back at the start of the descent and let them ride forward along with my knees as I reach the absolute bottom. I'll then reverse and push my hips and knees back coming up out of the hole. That's not my preferred way to squat, but I sometimes do it to compensate for low-back pain or tightness. My stance doesn't change regardless of my hip mechanics. Not sure if any of that will help you. Good luck!

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#33

Post by DannyP » Sun May 03, 2020 3:53 pm

asdf wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 11:22 am
DannyP wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 8:55 pm performing a sit-back squat, instead of a pure Olympic squat
Ah. I was assuming that you wanted to squat "Olympic" style, but I see that your OP only mentioned "high bar." Regardless, I think f you can master the mechanics of an "Olympic" squat, then you'll be able to modify it easily to perform a more hips-back high-bar squat. When I go into a squat session with low-back fatigue, I often push my hips back at the start of the descent and let them ride forward along with my knees as I reach the absolute bottom. I'll then reverse and push my hips and knees back coming up out of the hole. That's not my preferred way to squat, but I sometimes do it to compensate for low-back pain or tightness. My stance doesn't change regardless of my hip mechanics. Not sure if any of that will help you. Good luck!
I'd love to squat Oly, and be able to go through that larger range of motion. But it seems as though those mechanics aren't best for someone like me (long-ish femurs, knees already too far forward). This, along with @CtMcBride's advice should be enough to temporarily completely fuck me up help me work out my issues long-term.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#34

Post by DannyP » Mon May 04, 2020 10:14 am

Ok, so did some more experimenting with stance widths today while trying to rotate out femurs (which, surprise surprise, is harder to do with a load than without). Maybe looked a little better. But, when it came to ease of the squats themselves, I changed one stupid little thing that made them feel better. I don't know why, it seems counter to what everybody says, but I actually widened my grip and the whole thing felt better. When reviewing my old clips, after first switching to HBBS, I saw that I still had more of a LBBS grip width and when I tried it on some sets it seemed to make hitting depth easier.

Will post a clip or two later.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#35

Post by DannyP » Mon May 04, 2020 7:53 pm

Ok, here's from today. Feet still a bit messy but (maybe) getting femurs rolled out a bit more. Anyhow, like I said, for some reason widening my grip an inch or two on each side made the lifts feel stronger and easier:


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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#36

Post by Philbert » Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:53 pm

This looks better your heels do not seem to be coming up, but your right knee still drifts inward a little. Your stance still looks too wide.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#37

Post by dw » Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:10 am

These comments about stance width make me wonder if I'm doing it wrong. I used to go with hip width or even narrower because it felt stronger but I couldn't reach a natural bottom position - I would just collide with the backs of my calves which would push my knees forward and the whole thing looked awful.

Lately I've moved to wider than shoulder width and it seems to be weaker but much more stable and with a natural bounce below parallel.

ETA - wrote "stance depth" originally
Last edited by dw on Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#38

Post by Philbert » Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:23 pm

dw wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:10 am These comments about stance width make me wonder if I'm doing it wrong. I used to go with hip width or even narrower because it felt stronger but I couldn't reach a natural bottom position - I would just collide with the backs of my calves which would push my knees forward and the whole thing looked awful.

Lately I've moved to wider than shoulder width and it seems to be weaker but much more stable and with a natural bounce below parallel.

ETA - wrote "stance depth" originally
OK, If you have already tried narrower andrun into problems there is no need to try it again just because I say so. You can also accomplish teh objective of narrower stance (less tendency for knee valgus as you initiate the movement) by decreasing the angle at which your toes point out. This will also put a touch of stretch on the hip external rotators, and then a cue for external rotation of the femurs like "twist feet into the floor" may work a little better.
Caveat: I learned to squat from videos, and probably have about two hours lifetime total informal coaching experience, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#39

Post by Hardartery » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 am

FWIW, I watched all of the videos on the last page of this thread, including the "Instruction" videos. I've seen at least three people telkl you to narrow up your squat. I have no idea why you are working on an Olympic High Bar Squat form, I'm too lazy to surf through the rest of the log atm, honestly. I notice that your feet are under your hips. The video from Catalyst starts out with saying to put your feet just outside of your hips. That would indicate that your squat stance is, in fact, too narrow. By about 2 inches per side eyeballing it. Which, honestly, was my first thought when watching the first video. Your knees don't track correctly because you are pushing them out hard on the descent, and it appears bio-mechanical. Your Low Bar form is better because you appear to be using a slightly wider stance.
I will also say up front, I have no idea whatsoever what the "Rippetoe" form is, and know next to nothing about him or his training methodology, so if that happens to align with anything he would say, it is purely coincidental.

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Re: Squat problems (ankle, arch, form or other?)

#40

Post by Wilhelm » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:52 pm

I agree @Hardartery . At least try for medium wide to see how it goes.
As @dw said, it felt weaker but more stable.
A lot of people will find it becomes stronger than an ultra narrow stance, since it engages the hips more.
It just may take a little time to adapt to.
I think if you work out in very small increments, an inch at a time or so, you adapt pretty easily.

Also agree with how a somewhat wide stance allows for alingning the knees from the start.
I ended up "choosing" my toe angle based on how it makes my balance on my feet feel.
There is a sweet spot where the edges of my feet don't rock up either from inside or outside.
Wider with a bit of toe out also allows my torso room to drop between my thighs.
Hitting depth feels different narrow vs medium wide, but again, just a matter of practice and getting used to it.

I'm not good with what mechanics would make someone a very good narrow stance squatter, but i know that works for some people.

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