Average 2 Savage 2

[xuerebx]

Thanks guys! I'll try with the front foot elevated because I was having some balance issues with the rear foot elevated (I literally stumble) - although that could be because I was doing them after back and front squats in my other program. Anyway, I I'll go with dumbbells though as my home squat rack and bench are separate from each other and don't want to move things around just for one exercise.

[aurelius]

Not sure if you've read other posts about this transition before but you should put some thought into what TMs you want to start with. I found 85% of my strength program TMs worked pretty well although your average set RPE may be kind of low at first.

100% of your strength program TM will be a mistake even if your conditioning is very good. If you compare the progression logic of the two programs you'll find the TMs don't imply the same level of strength in both contexts.

Two minute rests seems miserable to me for the more exhausting movements like squats.

I'm using lighter weight than the base strength program. And 3 minute rests on major movements (squat, deadlift, bench, and OHP). My conditioning is being exposed!

I am using the base program setup. And doing the 5x week, Day 1 starts on Sunday:

Day 1: HB Squat
Day 2: Good Morning
Day 3: Deadlift
Day 4: REST
Day 5: Leg Press
Day 6: RDL
Day 7: REST

Full program https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rth43T ... sp=sharing

But man alive, the good morning to deadlift was not great. Anyone see any issues with me moving the deadlift to day 2?

Day 1: HB Squat
Day 2: Deadlift
Day 3: Good Morning
Day 4: REST
Day 5: Leg Press
Day 6: RDL
Day 7: REST

[Wayne]

I’d probably try swapping them if you’re struggling, but over time it should regulate itself if you leave it. Looking at the format (I can’t access your Google Sheets, and I’ve only run 3 or 4 days from the templates) I’d guess the program is trying to keep the squat and deadlift apart.

Another way might be to swap the good morning and RDL if you find them less fatiguing.

Also, at risk of stating the obvious, you could move a rest day. Might not fit your schedule though.

[houzi]

Not sure if you've read other posts about this transition before but you should put some thought into what TMs you want to start with. I found 85% of my strength program TMs worked pretty well although your average set RPE may be kind of low at first.

100% of your strength program TM will be a mistake even if your conditioning is very good. If you compare the progression logic of the two programs you'll find the TMs don't imply the same level of strength in both contexts.

Two minute rests seems miserable to me for the more exhausting movements like squats.

I'm using lighter weight than the base strength program. And 3 minute rests on major movements (squat, deadlift, bench, and OHP). My conditioning is being exposed!

I am using the base program setup. And doing the 5x week, Day 1 starts on Sunday:

Day 1: HB Squat
Day 2: Good Morning
Day 3: Deadlift
Day 4: REST
Day 5: Leg Press
Day 6: RDL
Day 7: REST

Full program https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rth43T ... sp=sharing

But man alive, the good morning to deadlift was not great. Anyone see any issues with me moving the deadlift to day 2?

Day 1: HB Squat
Day 2: Deadlift
Day 3: Good Morning
Day 4: REST
Day 5: Leg Press
Day 6: RDL
Day 7: REST

You could put the Good Mornings on the same day as your Squats, giving you a day between Squats and deadlifts to recover a little better. Plus you go into your squat day following a rest day, so should be fresh enough for 2 lower body movements. Just have Day 2 be an upper body day.

Day 1: HB Squat, Good Morning
Day 2: REST
Day 3: Deadlift
Day 4: REST
Day 5: Leg Press
Day 6: RDL
Day 7: REST

[Tommy1507]

I am in week 10 of the RTF-programm. I am liking it so far and got many rep PRs. Based on them my e1RM should have improved. After only doing fahves before AtS2, i found myself liking doing more volume and higher rep sets. So i will finish the second block but won't do the third block (week 15-21).
I am asking myself if i will jump to the hypertrophy setup or do the first block of the RTF and just add 1 or 2 sets to the upper body stuff. That should give me plenty of volume, but more easy sets with a lower RPE comparing to the hypertrophy block with only 4 sets, which are at an higher RPE. Goal is definitely adding size but strength is also important to me. Also i don't want to mess too much with RPE/RIR. This made RTF so appealin to me.

So my setup for the first block, which i'll maybe run twice wouldn't change much to my current setup and look like this:

Mo: T1 Squat (RTF),T2: CGB(RTF 7 sets), RDL (RTF), Chins

Tue: T1 Bench (RTF 7sets); T2: FSQ (Last set RIR); Rows [Maybe adding an OHP slot]

Th: T1 DL(RTF), T2: Incline Press(RTF 7 sets); Pull Ups

Sat: T1 OHP (RTF 7 sets); T2: Pin SQ (RTF), Bench (RTF 7 sets), Rows

+ some curls and lateral raises. Thats 3x SQ, 2x DL, 5-6x Push, 4x Back

Chins and Pull Ups are 10 minute density blocks. And i think rows will be one heavy and on volume day.

[aurelius]

Also, at risk of stating the obvious, you could move a rest day. Might not fit your schedule though.

That's what I did. Night and day difference. Finishing Week 5 and body feels great. Even after the high volume deadlifts.

[GrainsAndGains]

I had to take a break midway through due to a move but I am finishing up the second to last week of the third mesocycle in the SBS Hypertrophy template (the last week is a really easy deload). I picked the 4x a week version.

I called an audible and added some heavy singles to the final workouts for my three primary movements to get some preliminary feedback on how the program has worked out. Overall, the results are pretty positive, especially considering I haven't really handled any weights above my previous 80% maxes for over 6 months.

Safety Bar Squat went from 290 -> 305
Bench went from an ugly 220 -> a clean 225
Sumo DL went from 355 -> 420 (!!!), more than I've ever deadlifted conventionally (this was a mostly untrained movement, so probably some noob gains in there)

In terms of jacked-ness my recordkeeping has been terrible for the last months but upper body is noticeably bigger than it was when I started the program. I've gained some weight but I still comfortably fit into all my size 34s and some of my 32s.

For the most part I followed the program as written, except for switching out the primary OHP lift for 7-minute weekly push press density blocks. I also bailed out on the second squat auxiliary a third of the way through and changed from Bulgarian Split Squats to Belt Squats, which I mostly progressed linearly. For accessories, I had DB flyes and lying triceps extensions for most of the program, but otherwise just experimented with different movements until I got bored, focusing more on range of motion and mind-muscle connection and less on loading. I would usually try and do 5 sets for the main lifts and 4 sets for the accessories (and the safety bar front squats, which are kind of horrible).

I despised the RTF sets at first and avoided them until the second meso, when I decided to take the deadlift and squat RTFs to RPE 9 instead. It worked out pretty well - the sets were difficult enough to get a good estimate on max reps without the fatigue incurred from heavy sets to failure.

I did give myself a bit of elbow tendinitis due to perhaps going a bit too heavy on LTEs, but other than that fatigue was basically a non-issue. Choosing Sumo Deadlifting probably had something to do with this.

My final program looked like this:

Day 1
Safety Bar Squat
DB Bench
Romanian Deadlift
DB Fly

Day 2
TnG Bench
Belt Squat
DB Overhead Press
Barbell Inverted Rows (feet on bench)

Day 3
Sumo Deadlift
Close Grip Bench
Lying Triceps Extensions
Rotating Accessory Slot

Day 4
Push Press Density (7 minute)
Safety Bar Front Squat
Chest-Supported Dumbell Rows (a home gym invention, these kind of rule)
Diamond Push-Up

Overall, I'd probably run it again - it's definitely a great option for people who want to get bigger but would still prefer to train with a focus on the big three lifts.

[EggMcMuffin]

i made zero progress on this program lmao

[51M0N]

Which version did you do?

[JohnHelton]

Okay. I'm planning to give this a real shot. I started doing it last meso, and then bastardized it so much that I can't say it was even close to the same thing. I plan to do the original setup. No OHP though. I'll just work that in as an accessory movement. I've always hated heavy OHP.

[mgil]

Okay. I'm planning to give this a real shot. I started doing it last meso, and then bastardized it so much that I can't say it was even close to the same thing. I plan to do the original setup. No OHP though. I'll just work that in as an accessory movement. I've always hated heavy OHP.

As someone that once had a decent OHP, I can completely understand your rationale. I think it’s far better to work the movement for lighter reps. Also, I’ve mixed in kettlebell variants for overhead work and it keeps the shoulders much happier. I think tying the hands together throughout that ROM isn’t helpful.

[JohnHelton]

Okay. I'm planning to give this a real shot. I started doing it last meso, and then bastardized it so much that I can't say it was even close to the same thing. I plan to do the original setup. No OHP though. I'll just work that in as an accessory movement. I've always hated heavy OHP.

As someone that once had a decent OHP, I can completely understand your rationale. I think it’s far better to work the movement for lighter reps. Also, I’ve mixed in kettlebell variants for overhead work and it keeps the shoulders much happier. I think tying the hands together throughout that ROM isn’t helpful.

I totally agree. I wish I had a bunch of dumbbells for the home gym. I would use those. I also like using doing seated DB OHP, reclining the seat just slightly. I get shoulder impingement when I go straight up.

[rjharris]

Just finishing out the second block of the hypertrophy template. I think this or RTF is preferable for me since I seem to overshoot RPE routinely and get hammered in the heavier weeks on the original template. I think I've gained some good mass? At least, I'm up a few lbs over my pre-baby weight and managed to keep whatever lol abs I had.

I think I'll probably run it again after I'm done, but hopefully with some DB exercises (OP/bench) if I can ever manage to pull the trigger on some. That will help with supersetting as well.

[GrainsAndGains]

Intraset fatigue on heavy overhead pressing is pretty awful, IMO, much worse than benching. When I was on SSNLP I hated the heavy OHP fives more than anything else.

[DCR]

The issue that I was having with serious pain at the base of my hands never did fade, but I noticed that it was exacerbated far more by OHP than benching, and so started DB pressing for the first time in… probably 15 years or more? Having had a few sessions, I’m thinking I may never press, row, or curl a barbell again. Feels so much better during and after.

[janoycresva]

really enjoyed this program (5x RTF) for upper body lifts and set some unexpected PRs, however the lower body programming absolutely pushed my shit in even with conservative maxes and not taking the AMRAP sets beyond like an @ 9

deadlift was an undulating rollercoaster the whole time and my squat regressed like 20lbs lmao

[Tommy1507]

What do you think is the reasoning for programing of the auxilaries (close variatíons of main lifts) in the original strength template?
week 1 sets of 7 at 60% till 4 RIR
week 2 sets of 6 at 65% till 4 RIR
week 3 sets of 5 at 70% till 3 RIR
week 4 sets of 7 at 62,5% till 4 RIR
week 5 sets of 6 at 67,5% till 4 RIR
week 6 sets of 5 at 72,5% till 3 RIR

So most sets are very easy and the intensity is below 70%. Don't you need at least 70-75% so that every rep count for hypertrophy and strength? The main lifts start with 70% and end with 82,5% in week 6, so there you would get many reps at this range.
I want to put the main lifts on original strength scheme, so many many submaximal sets with an RIR cap. And i wonder if i am better off with putting auxilaries on the scheme described above or on hypertrophy, which would be 4 hard sets with 7-10 reps per set.
Do you think it would make any difference? Do they aim for other adaptations?

[Hanley]

What do you think is the reasoning for programing of the auxilaries (close variatíons of main lifts) in the original strength template?

Presumably, you'll be pre-fatigued while doing these aux sets...I'm guessing the lighter loads (relative to main lifts) compensate for this fatigue.

Don't you need at least 70-75% so that every rep count for hypertrophy and strength?

Nah. Just move the bar faster.

And if you're pre-fatigued AND moving the bar at a good clip, you can probably achieve (close to) 100% recruitment at very light loads.

[mgil]

Interesting that the notion of an arbitrary percentage is the gatekeeper of hypertrophy and strength still lingers.

[Tommy1507]

Thanks @Hanley Then i'll give it a try.

@mgil
Don't some folks say you need to get closer to failure with light loads? I have no idea about training science and the only i thing i notice that many things still seems to be unclear. Probably i mixed something up.

This is from Data Driven strength, where i think i get this number from:
With heavy loads (~75% of 1RM and greater), some evidence suggests that sets can be performed with >4 RIR while still maximizing muscle growth. If this approach is taken, we recommend completing more sets to match total reps at the given load.