Average 2 Savage 2

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JohnHelton
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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#301

Post by JohnHelton » Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:33 am

Tommy1507 wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:29 am This is from Data Driven strength, where inthibkni get this bumber from:
With heavy loads (~75% of 1RM and greater), some evidence suggests that sets can be performed with >4 RIR while still maximizing muscle growth. If this approach is taken, we recommend completing more sets to match total reps at the given load.
I've heard them say this numerous times. They are less definitive about loads <75% regarding hypertrophy. That said, I believe @Hanley has much experience with lower RPEs and sub 75% loads producing hypertrophy (or at least strength gains). I'm currently trusting that experience because I can't stand doing high rep squats with high RPEs. I'm just loading on the volume at lower intensities through more sets and limited rest. In other words, I think absolute volume at 65%+ matters. Put in enough work and you will get results. We will see.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#302

Post by Tommy1507 » Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:37 am

How long do you rest between sets? I was thinking to start with 90 seconds and adjust from there.
I think it will be a nice change going from the hypertrophy scheme (4 sets like RPE 7,7,8,9-10) to this low RPE work. I also think it will get me somewhere as long as i put in the work.
Last edited by Tommy1507 on Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#303

Post by JohnHelton » Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:39 am

Tommy1507 wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:37 am How long do you rest bewtween sets? I was thinking to start with 90 seconds and adjust from there.
I think it will be a nice change going from the hypertrophy scheme (4 sets like RPE 7,7,8,9-10) to this low RPE work. I also think it will get me somewhere as long as input in the work.
I just shoot to get all the work done in 20 minutes.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#304

Post by DeeKoo » Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:20 am

If I may chip in, I believe the reason Data Driven Strength are cautious generalizing their statements to below 75% loads for hypertrophy purposes is that the studies done on that subject were done with 10RM loads, or roughly 75% 1RM. As scientists they're happy to say this is what we've observed, but making broader generalizations based on the observations is something they're more cautious about. I suspect they privately believe the "cutoff" is lower than that, but again as scientists they choose to use cautious language.

Thanks to the people participating in submax training discussions on this forum, by the way. I've been lurking here for a while now, and reading those discussions has helped me find ways to train productively with my uncooperative back.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#305

Post by JohnHelton » Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:43 am

@DeeKoo Welcome! I also think you are absolutely correct.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#306

Post by Tommy1507 » Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:44 pm

Whenever Nuckols was asked on reddit if you would put on muscle on the strength program or vice versa build strength on the hypertrophy programm, he always replied that you build muscle on a faster rate on the hypertrophy programm.
One could argue that this is the predictable answer when a program is called hypertrophy...Or how big the difference really is.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#307

Post by mgil » Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:15 pm

Matched volume is somewhat important, sure. However, I’d conjecture that a very fast and clean concentric with a slow and controlled eccentric also need to be down with light loads.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#308

Post by Famendoza1981 » Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:45 pm

Just started this today. Am doing the regular Hypertrophy template 3x a week. I kept the defaults for the main lifts (squat, bench press, block pull and press). For the supplemental lifts I chose stuff I can do in my home gym, so no leg press or dumbbell stuff or machine stuff. More like front squat, split squats, push press, incline and close grip benches, and RDLs.

Am starting with 90% for the main lifts to acclimatize myself to the volume I’ll be experiencing. Aside from that, no customization for reps or set or anything.

Anyone else starting off this way in their home gyms? My wife is expecting in October so I want to keep it to whatever I can do in the home gym.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#309

Post by James » Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:42 am

I used the A2S2 hypertrophy template like that and it was fine.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#310

Post by 5hout » Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:55 am

Famendoza1981 wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:45 pm
Anyone else starting off this way in their home gyms? My wife is expecting in October so I want to keep it to whatever I can do in the home gym.
I tried A2S at home with a new baby. I found the session times ran a little long for maternity leave lifting, but ymmv. I'd run it right up until the kid comes, then it's "whatever you can/as fast as you can".

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#311

Post by dw » Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:04 am

Eh I'll just randomly stick this here since it's SBS.

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/negle ... s-muscles/

I thought this was an interesting article, more for the hypertrophy focused. I don't really have the time for any of these now but I like the idea of prioritizing underdeveloped muscles to get more bang for your buck.

I personally suspect I would get some easy gains from neck training but I'm just not ready to go there...

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#312

Post by mgil » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:40 am

dw wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:04 am Eh I'll just randomly stick this here since it's SBS.

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/negle ... s-muscles/

I thought this was an interesting article, more for the hypertrophy focused. I don't really have the time for any of these now but I like the idea of prioritizing underdeveloped muscles to get more bang for your buck.

I personally suspect I would get some easy gains from neck training but I'm just not ready to go there...
Last one there, hip abduction, is one a lot of people should consider. Hip flexion is a close second.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#313

Post by perman » Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:25 pm

With all the barbell medicine wisdom + general wide lifting knowledge + experience, I feel like I've built a robust body and have mostly solved any issue that has popped up in the back, shoulders, elbows and knees.

Hips seem to be an exception though. I have, and have had, sore lateral hips for no particular cause for several years now, with no real improvement.

I feel like hips might be more prone than other areas for pain over the long term if you follow traditional programming. Probably most experienced lifters have way weaker anterior hip muscles than posterior.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#314

Post by JeanLannes » Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:53 am

Right now I'm 4 weeks into a highly modified version of A2S2
Basically, for my main lifts (Squat, Bench, Dead on Mon/Wed/Fri) I'm doing the last 7 weeks (3s, 2s and 1s)
For the second lifts of the day (CG Bench, SSB Squat, Pin Bench) I'm doing 6s, 5s and 4s
Then the last exercises (Deficit Deadlift, BTN Snatch Press, Front Squat and Incline DB) I'm doing the Hypertrophy set up (12s, 10s and 8s)
I like only have 7 weeks since I'm a bad program hopper and this gives me a bit more flexibility; plus it makes changing accessories at the end of a block easier and I hate doing the bigger AMRAPs on comp lifts

So far things have gone pretty well. Hypertrophy lifts have kicked my ass and I'm lucky to get more than 1 reps above the goal but the others have always exceeded by 2 or 3 at least.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#315

Post by mgil » Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:48 am

perman wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:25 pm I feel like hips might be more prone than other areas for pain over the long term if you follow traditional programming. Probably most experienced lifters have way weaker anterior hip muscles than posterior.
That’s because most barbell work focuses on the hips being used bilaterally to extend, i.e. “stand up”. However the hips are primarily designed for moving forward and backward and next would be side to side.

This would then imply that barbell movements should be supplemented with some forward and reverse lunges along with side lunges or similar, if wanting to stay with compound lifts.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#316

Post by Tommy1507 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:16 am

mgil wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:48 am
perman wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:25 pm I feel like hips might be more prone than other areas for pain over the long term if you follow traditional programming. Probably most experienced lifters have way weaker anterior hip muscles than posterior.
That’s because most barbell work focuses on the hips being used bilaterally to extend, i.e. “stand up”. However the hips are primarily designed for moving forward and backward and next would be side to side.

This would then imply that barbell movements should be supplemented with some forward and reverse lunges along with side lunges or similar, if wanting to stay with compound lifts.
What are good unilateral barbell exercises besides maybe Lunges or Bulgarian Split Squats? Or do you need heavy dumbbells?

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#317

Post by mgil » Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:12 pm

Tommy1507 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:16 am
mgil wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:48 am
perman wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:25 pm I feel like hips might be more prone than other areas for pain over the long term if you follow traditional programming. Probably most experienced lifters have way weaker anterior hip muscles than posterior.
That’s because most barbell work focuses on the hips being used bilaterally to extend, i.e. “stand up”. However the hips are primarily designed for moving forward and backward and next would be side to side.

This would then imply that barbell movements should be supplemented with some forward and reverse lunges along with side lunges or similar, if wanting to stay with compound lifts.
What are good unilateral barbell exercises besides maybe Lunges or Bulgarian Split Squats? Or do you need heavy dumbbells?
There are also side squats or whatever they are called.

I was thinking about this some more while on a mile walk today.

Prowler/sled work is probably really good unilateral work too. Both pushing and pulling.

Side steps with or without bands are useful. Learning some agility drills, even if done slowly are likely helpful.

Most of this stuff can be done with light weights and high reps. Agility and prowler work can cross over into cardio as well.

Basically, if you want good hip mobility, mobility has to be worked on through all directions of motion in the joint.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#318

Post by perman » Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:11 pm

mgil wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:48 am
perman wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:25 pm I feel like hips might be more prone than other areas for pain over the long term if you follow traditional programming. Probably most experienced lifters have way weaker anterior hip muscles than posterior.
That’s because most barbell work focuses on the hips being used bilaterally to extend, i.e. “stand up”. However the hips are primarily designed for moving forward and backward and next would be side to side.

This would then imply that barbell movements should be supplemented with some forward and reverse lunges along with side lunges or similar, if wanting to stay with compound lifts.
Sure, but two of the three underdeveloped muscles mentioned in the article were hip muscles (those two being hip flexors and hip abductors). To me it makes sense that this imbalance of the hip extensors being trained extensively, and almost every other hip muscle being barely trained might be at the heart of this. Or it has nothing to do with it :? ...

There are probably plenty of ways you can hit the flexors and abductors more directly. More bodybuilding exercises like those specifically mentioned in the article might work too.

Not too be nitpicky, but the hips weren't "designed" (which you obviously know), so it doesn't have predetermined purposes. Evolutionarily, it does make sense to train the hips through traditional movement, but using that logic to prescribe traditional movement because it necessarily works better is a naturalistic fallacy.

In a rehab context, I think testing shit out that seems right to you is as good a guess as any outside professional care.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#319

Post by dw » Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:46 pm

Just found out my gym has a multi hip machine (that machine featured in the article for standing abduction and flexion).

Definitely going to start using this. I was actually thinking of giving up on the seated abduction/adduction machine anyway.

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Re: Average 2 Savage 2

#320

Post by mgil » Fri Jul 08, 2022 4:42 pm

perman wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:11 pm
mgil wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:48 am
perman wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:25 pm I feel like hips might be more prone than other areas for pain over the long term if you follow traditional programming. Probably most experienced lifters have way weaker anterior hip muscles than posterior.
That’s because most barbell work focuses on the hips being used bilaterally to extend, i.e. “stand up”. However the hips are primarily designed for moving forward and backward and next would be side to side.

This would then imply that barbell movements should be supplemented with some forward and reverse lunges along with side lunges or similar, if wanting to stay with compound lifts.
Sure, but two of the three underdeveloped muscles mentioned in the article were hip muscles (those two being hip flexors and hip abductors). To me it makes sense that this imbalance of the hip extensors being trained extensively, and almost every other hip muscle being barely trained might be at the heart of this. Or it has nothing to do with it :? ...

There are probably plenty of ways you can hit the flexors and abductors more directly. More bodybuilding exercises like those specifically mentioned in the article might work too.

Not too be nitpicky, but the hips weren't "designed" (which you obviously know), so it doesn't have predetermined purposes. Evolutionarily, it does make sense to train the hips through traditional movement, but using that logic to prescribe traditional movement because it necessarily works better is a naturalistic fallacy.

In a rehab context, I think testing shit out that seems right to you is as good a guess as any outside professional care.
I agree that the hips weren’t “designed” and therefore do not imply an absolute set of rules and measure for usage.

But to your latter point, that’s where I’m going, insofar that people need to work the hip well beyond a barbell squat to both diagnose issues and to develop robustness as needed.

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