Gillingham 2 day 12wk Bench Program

[Wilhelm]

Just ftr, i'm only looking at this in relation to this program as it stands.
Not super interested in the broader debate of high vs low frequency.

And i'm also not needing to steer away from that topic.

Carry on, gentlemen.
^Updated

[Hardartery]

I am curious as to why anyone would bench 3-4x a week? Is this a thing people are doing?

why not? it works for a lot of people and isn't particularly fatiguing or time consuming

If benching4x a week isn't fatiguing, you're doing it wrong - to be blunt. If you can go more than twice a week, I'd question the intensity of the workout. I guess this is a difference between Working out and Training. If I hit a third session of any lift in the same week there's zero chance I would have anything left to do anything serious. I couldn't possibly have recovered that fast and my CNS should be geting pounded by the other workouts that I did. And I'm saying that as a guy on TRT to have normal levels of test all of the time.

A lot of high level lifters bench 4+ times a week. You should definitely let them know they're just working out and not training.

I experienced much quicker progress benching 4x a week than 2x a week, with much lower intensities. I like doing other things though so I keep it to 2x a week and am fine with slower progress. If I was doing a meet, absolutely I'd be benching 4x a week.

Who is benching 4x a week and high level? If all I did was bench, I still don't see doing it 4x a week. Everybody is different, sure. Some guys need more volume, some guys less. I'm familiar what plenty of PL programs and lifters. I am not familiar with this 4x a week appraoch and am curious where it came from. If benching 4x a week works for you, do it. You should also be analyzing why it's working and what it does to your other lifts.

[AllM1ght]

I am curious as to why anyone would bench 3-4x a week? Is this a thing people are doing?

why not? it works for a lot of people and isn't particularly fatiguing or time consuming

If benching4x a week isn't fatiguing, you're doing it wrong - to be blunt. If you can go more than twice a week, I'd question the intensity of the workout. I guess this is a difference between Working out and Training. If I hit a third session of any lift in the same week there's zero chance I would have anything left to do anything serious. I couldn't possibly have recovered that fast and my CNS should be geting pounded by the other workouts that I did. And I'm saying that as a guy on TRT to have normal levels of test all of the time.

A lot of high level lifters bench 4+ times a week. You should definitely let them know they're just working out and not training.

I experienced much quicker progress benching 4x a week than 2x a week, with much lower intensities. I like doing other things though so I keep it to 2x a week and am fine with slower progress. If I was doing a meet, absolutely I'd be benching 4x a week.

Who is benching 4x a week and high level? If all I did was bench, I still don't see doing it 4x a week. Everybody is different, sure. Some guys need more volume, some guys less. I'm familiar what plenty of PL programs and lifters. I am not familiar with this 4x a week appraoch and am curious where it came from. If benching 4x a week works for you, do it. You should also be analyzing why it's working and what it does to your other lifts.

if you are familiar with powerlifting, nearly every RTS, TSA and Joeyy Flexx athelete. which accounts for the majority of the best in the world at various weight classes.
For what it's worth I used to train with a load of world champion university youngsters and at least 9/10 of those were high frequency bench.

[Hardartery]

@Hardartery, don’t you think that your recovery time is somewhat dependent on the absolute weight that you can lift? I only deadlift once per week, and squat twice per week. I’m the least strong when it comes to bench. I guess this is a chick or the egg question. If someone’s 1RM on bench is only 225, I would think such associated training wouldn’t be tremendously CNS disturbing. However, if your 1RM is 500+, then any stimulative workout would probably be very CNS tacking. IDK.

No. My 1RM is my 1RM. It's the asme level of hard to get my 1RM at 225 as it is if it's 500. Overall volume makes a difference IME. A lot of volume close to your 1RM is taxing to the CNS. To an extent people can adapt to it, but there's a tipping point. The issue for lifter on PED's is always CNS, the other recovery is handled by the PED's. Most natural lifters are going to have a harder time doing the same level of damage to the CNS in their training. The iossues for naturals should be recovery of other stuff. I am in no way a proponent of low volume. I think it's stupid to be straight forward about it. I do think guys overestimate the intensity of their lifting. Often. I also think that DOMS is meaningless as a gauge. People get very defensive about it though. I know personally that there is no way I have enough in the tank to hit the same muscle group in any useful way past twice a week. With the exception of triceps. They can go 3x without an issue for some reason. Doing actual flat bench 4x a week? I'd be punching the clock with minimal weights and still fatigued next week. It's not enough recovery, especially if I'm Deadlifting and doing some kind of squat.

[Hardartery]

Who is benching 4x a week and high level? If all I did was bench, I still don't see doing it 4x a week. Everybody is different, sure. Some guys need more volume, some guys less. I'm familiar what plenty of PL programs and lifters. I am not familiar with this 4x a week appraoch and am curious where it came from. If benching 4x a week works for you, do it. You should also be analyzing why it's working and what it does to your other lifts.

if you are familiar with powerlifting, nearly every RTS, TSA and Joeyy Flexx athelete. which accounts for the majority of the best in the world at various weight classes.
For what it's worth I used to train with a load of world champion university youngsters and at least 9/10 of those were high frequency bench.
[/quote]

I am somewhat familiar with Powerlifting. I know quite a few of them. I've never heard of Joeyy Flexx, nor do I know RTS or TSA. I'm familiar with Westside/Conjugate. I'm aware of Josh Bryant. I've talked to Ed Coan. I'm aware of Maddox. I've seen a bunch of Russian lifters whose names I cannot spell from memory, and watched some of the current large US lifters. I asked an honest question, as no one was doing that when I was training at a PL/Strongman gym. I know and have trained with some very strong guys, and none of them do or did any one exercise 4x in the same week. I do not know who these "Majority of the best in the world" guys are that you refer to, but names I've heard of would help. You seem to be taking this as an attack, when it's not. I'm trying to understand the approach and why it might work for some.

[JohnHelton]

Joey Flexx, RTS (Mike T.) and TSA train drug tested athletes in general. There may be a difference there compared to Westside/Bryant/Coan/Maddox. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.

[Hardartery]

Joey Flexx, RTS (Mike T.) and TSA train drug tested athletes in general. There may be a difference there compared to Westside/Bryant/Coan/Maddox. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.

I Googled Joey Flexx and TSA. TSA appears to be Tudor Bompa rehash, which is okay but not a panacea. I don't know the weight class for Joey, but I wouldn't consider 474 a record setting bench unless he's a lot smaller than he looks. I did a hand off for a natty 18 year old of more than that, so I'm not real wowed by the number.

[Stoop]

Joey Flexx, RTS (Mike T.) and TSA train drug tested athletes in general. There may be a difference there compared to Westside/Bryant/Coan/Maddox. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.

I Googled Joey Flexx and TSA. TSA appears to be Tudor Bompa rehash, which is okay but not a panacea. I don't know the weight class for Joey, but I wouldn't consider 474 a record setting bench unless he's a lot smaller than he looks. I did a hand off for a natty 18 year old of more than that, so I'm not real wowed by the number.

IMO your perception of what can work for normal humans is a bit clouded by what you've seen work for PED users.

[AllM1ght]

Joey Flexx, RTS (Mike T.) and TSA train drug tested athletes in general. There may be a difference there compared to Westside/Bryant/Coan/Maddox. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.

I Googled Joey Flexx and TSA. TSA appears to be Tudor Bompa rehash, which is okay but not a panacea. I don't know the weight class for Joey, but I wouldn't consider 474 a record setting bench unless he's a lot smaller than he looks. I did a hand off for a natty 18 year old of more than that, so I'm not real wowed by the number.

typed a reply and it bugged and I lost it lol.

RTS - Mike Tuscherer, ex world champ. coaches people including Brett Gibbs and Bryce Krawzcych both world level lifters.
Flexx - Dani Mello, Amanda Laurence, Russel Orhi, John Haack
TSA - Coach is Bryce Lewis, abosultely top class lifter, can't remember all the rest at this second

[JohnHelton]

Joey Flexx, RTS (Mike T.) and TSA train drug tested athletes in general. There may be a difference there compared to Westside/Bryant/Coan/Maddox. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.

I Googled Joey Flexx and TSA. TSA appears to be Tudor Bompa rehash, which is okay but not a panacea. I don't know the weight class for Joey, but I wouldn't consider 474 a record setting bench unless he's a lot smaller than he looks. I did a hand off for a natty 18 year old of more than that, so I'm not real wowed by the number.

Joey Flexx coaches Russel Orhii. and The Strength Athlete (TSA) is Bryce Lewis' group. Both being natty national/world? powerlifting champions. They are pretty strong dudes. Not bench specialists though. Also, if someone doesn't compete in a drug-tested powerlifting federation, then they may or may not be natty. Probably not. There are some reasons to compete in a different federation, like there are no IPF/USAPL meets near me. But in general, if you take stuff you avoid the IPF/USAPL. And if you don't take stuff, then you don't want to compete with those that do take stuff.

[Hardartery]

Joey Flexx, RTS (Mike T.) and TSA train drug tested athletes in general. There may be a difference there compared to Westside/Bryant/Coan/Maddox. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.

I Googled Joey Flexx and TSA. TSA appears to be Tudor Bompa rehash, which is okay but not a panacea. I don't know the weight class for Joey, but I wouldn't consider 474 a record setting bench unless he's a lot smaller than he looks. I did a hand off for a natty 18 year old of more than that, so I'm not real wowed by the number.

IMO your perception of what can work for normal humans is a bit clouded by what you've seen work for PED users.

I was always a clean lifter. I was admittedly often the only one in the group, but my experience is as a natty (And according to old labs actually one with low T). The main differences between guys that use and guys that don't come down to how hard they can push in a given lifting session and how recovered they are by the next one. That's it. PED's give an immediate weight bump (Mostly water) that facilitates heavier lifts, and they recover from greater workloads faster. It also goes away whne they go off. They same basic program is the same. And, truth be told, most "Natties" are liars. It's not that hard to be on stuff and beat tests, even WADA/IOC stuff. It just affects which things they take. One of the things I prefer about untested is the lack of hypocrisy. Guys that want to take do, and make no effort to hide it. Guys that are natural know what they are getting into when they compete there. If anything, the natural guys would receive a much greater benefit from reduced frequency than guys on PED's. Individual dependent obviously. I liked training with guys that were gassed, they pushed me harder and I progresses better.

[Wilhelm]

Ok, so how about a high vs low volume, or bench frequency thread now?

Feel free to start one. : )

[AllM1ght]

Ok, so how about a high vs low volume, or bench frequency thread now?

Feel free to start one. : )

hah. fair. sorry mate

[Wilhelm]

Ok, so how about a high vs low volume, or bench frequency thread now?

Feel free to start one. : )

hah. fair. sorry mate

No worries.

And perhaps you guys' discussion is more interesting than my thread.

Which could easily be subtitled -
"Move bench, get out the way"

^ Dammit, that is tempting.

[Wilhelm]

I've decide to go to weighted dips two days per week instead of one for the duration of this second 12 week run.

I'll drop pullups to 1X week.
They have been my pet project for quite some time, but i don't want to add any slots to my week, and with the new cycle starting tommorow, now's the time to make the switch.

Pullups after light bench day still, to keep distance between dips and heavy bench.
That spacing has been working well.
Been adding reps to sets at a faster pace layely, so i'll do what i can to just get more PU volume into that one day.

[Stoop]

I've decide to go to weighted dips two days per week instead of one for the duration of this second 12 week run.

I'll drop pullups to 1X week.
They have been my pet project for quite some time, but i don't want to add any slots to my week, and with the new cycle starting tommorow, now's the time to make the switch.

Pullups after light bench day still, to keep distance between dips and heavy bench.
That spacing has been working well.
Been adding reps to sets at a faster pace layely, so i'll do what i can to just get more PU volume into that one day.

Good idea. Are both dip days going to be the same? Or intensity/volume split?

[Wilhelm]

I've decide to go to weighted dips two days per week instead of one for the duration of this second 12 week run.

I'll drop pullups to 1X week.
They have been my pet project for quite some time, but i don't want to add any slots to my week, and with the new cycle starting tommorow, now's the time to make the switch.

Pullups after light bench day still, to keep distance between dips and heavy bench.
That spacing has been working well.
Been adding reps to sets at a faster pace layely, so i'll do what i can to just get more PU volume into that one day.

Good idea. Are both dip days going to be the same? Or intensity/volume split?

I'm working with +55lbs now
RepsXSets 4X2 + 3X5 last session.
I want to just do that weight both days and add one rep to one set each time.
I did 4X5 once, but dropped it to 3s because 4s were yolo that day.

When i work up to 5s, i'll add weight, drop back to 3s and repeat.
I'm not married to 7 sets ,since i'll be getting a 100% increase, but i'll see how that goes.

I did do bodyweight "dips every day" last year for close to 4 months iirc, and doing weighted was to be my next step before i had my surgery layoff.
I'm pretty atached to progressing my weighted work.

All dips come after heavy bench, and there are 4 full days between Monday dips and Saturday heavy bench again.

Sat - H bench ~ Dips
Sun ~ Squat (MM 3 week)
Mon ~ Dips
Tue ~ Rest
Wed ~ Heavy DL (MM 2 week)
Thur ~ L bench ~ Pullups
Fri ~ Squat (MM 3 week) ~ Snatch grip DL ~ Light 55% & 60% (MM 2 week)

[Wilhelm]

Been running this a long time now, and i still really like the heavy day pattern/progression.

(Looking at this thread, it's been 2 years, so yeah, maybe time for a bit of change.)

My recent bout w/ covid has hit bench strength hard even though i didn't miss any sessions, so i find myself resetting to a new start of the cycle with lower weight than i would have been doing otherwise.

But i'm also going to experiment with changing the light day to a medium day.
To start i'm going to just do the sets from the heavy day minus 10lbs, and leave out the single.

It feels like i need more work if i'm going to stay with twice a week benching (which i am)

I also laid off dips for a few weeks because i was overdoing the loading.
Now i'm going to be doing bodyweight sets of higher reps and just not chase weight.
Left shoulder was feeling the effects from the loaded dips.
I will still load them eventually, but at a much lower rate, and without drastically reducing the reps per set.

[Skid]

Wilhelm, did you make any gains on this program over the past few years? Bench is probably the hardest thing to move up after lifting for a few years.

I'm going through one more cycle of linear periodization and if that doesn't do anything I'm going back to what's worked in the past. I seem to respond to high intensity, then some lighter back offs.

So something like working up to a heavy triple, then a heavy RPE 9- 5 Rep backoff followed by a lighter 10 rep pump backoff. Keep adding weight to the triples until you can only do a double, then slowly add weight until you can only do singles, then go to failure on a single. Then start over on triples again at a heavier weight than before.

Increase on the back off sets slowly as well or as they become lighter, or rep them out to even higher reps. Do this bench workout once a week.

On the second bench day, do accessory bench, like close grip, slight inclines and declines (easily done by adding blocks at the head or foot of your bench). Anything to offer a different stimulus and to take mileage off your shoulder joints. No need to bench more than twice a week when you are 60.

Also, I don't seem to recall any back work in your training such as barbell rows or similar. I do recall you doing chins, but not too often. Try some ultra wide grip chins with overhand grip. I'm noticing bigger lats already by adding that to my training recently.

Another point is that it seems like when I do lots of volume I get injuries so that's something else for us older lifters to consider.

Hope this gets you thinking at least.

[cole]

I would 2nd @Skid comment on the lat work. I dont do as much as I should, but I know that having a strong upper back will help your bench immensley. For me, I cant comment on Gillingham, but I do best with very high frequency benching (although its easy to teeter that line of too much fatigue/injury when benching 4x week.)