steroids in sports

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OrderInChaos
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Re: steroids in sports

#321

Post by OrderInChaos » Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:06 pm

Hardartery wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:28 pm
OrderInChaos wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 10:06 am
zappey1 wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:29 am
Hardartery wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:51 pm
zappey1 wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:40 pm
Hardartery wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:51 am
dw wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:34 pm
asdf wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:28 pm
Hardartery wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:30 am I don't see why the military would care. The amphetamines they hand out to pilots are way more dangerous in general than any steroids these guys are going to get into.
According to the article, at BUDS it wasn't just steroids. Human growth hormone, SARMS, Viagra for SIPE, etc.

"the chemicals some sailors are relying on can interfere with the function of the heart, liver and other critical organs that are already under incredible stress from the brutal training.

If enough people in a community are doping, he said, it spreads risk even to those who are clean, as the level of competition rises and more people are pushed to exhaustion and injury."
This seems like a legitimate problem. Seems like they should just allow the military to authorize steroid use. I mean...it quite obviously has substantial military value.
I'll be direct here, it does not seem like a legit problem. You want the level of copetition high, it is a place where people are pushing that limit with or without drugs. Growth is going to aid recovery, which is a net health positive for these guys given the relatively short term nature and given that no military guy is going to have the funds to pay for enough Growth Hormone to be dangerous. It's expensive, wherever they get it. IFBB guys are laying out close to $20k for a cycle of it to do a contest prep, no sailor can afford to pay for that much of it and it has to be refigerated at all times which would be another complication for them. The only thing I can see being a problem would be if they got on Tren, and they wouldn't because it crushes cardio endurance and that is a major problem for doing what those guys do. none of these things are as negative as alcohol or cigarettes, and they have unfettered access to both of those items.
As I said in my story when I was in at least 2 COs legit just looked the other way on ANY drugs the special warfare community was doing. They know that is hard work
I think that that is probably the correct way to handle it, honestly. They aren't hurting anyone and will end up in better nick from it even after if they go back to being natty, they would carry some of the ill-gotten gains with them. I never understood the hand wringing about these things, as if it's some unforgivable sin. They're training to risk their lives, any edge they can eke out is fine by me.
The article made it seem like they were cracking down on it. I wonder if they actually are or just saying that for the PR. There are SEAL admirals that used to be on teams and go on missions. So they probably know how it is. I don't see them kicking out their best guys because they are on steroids.
The difference with amphetamines for pilots in the past and simpler go pills now (modafinil etc) compared to anabolic supplements is that the scheduled substance is declared not illegal because it’s prescribed; same with the post doughy recovery sleeping pills. After a rigorous deployment all the flight personnel who were prescribed such have follow on care, sleep clinics, etc back in the US to ensure they’ve not become dependent (which is why the nootropics are more common than straight up speed)

It’d probably be smart if they could be more open about it and implement programs like that for combat arms troops so that PCT and actual medical personnel are involved, not just a Corpsman and dudes with syringes at the cage.

No need for substances like that in training, hell for a while they were booting anyone who used creatine at Coronado (potential for dehydration - too many recruits dying of dehydration and heat injury - new rule from the Adm). It’s a beat down and supposed to suck. Implementing anything like that should be looking at the long term effects and longevity of the personnel, and drive operational concerns. Not training.

I also think the opportunity to be one of Uncle Sam’s few legal users of anabolic regimes would boost their retention and recruiting numbers and possibly get the longer term dudes to STFU about vaccines and stay in 😂
I am not personally familiar with doing the training, and at my age am in no danger of being so. I am under the impression that Basic Training for beating them down, not the training for special teams. Anyway, amphetamines are illegal without a scrip pretty much everywhere, or just plain not available. Testosterone is OTC in most of the world. There are no particular dangers of addiction, and most guys, especially younger guys, can actually just stop and be totally fine in a few months at most. I doubt the PEDs make a huge difference in military training, but they would probably result in fewer injuries and less lost time to injury overall given the lack of 1 RM stuff involved. Banning creatine was pure ignorance, truthfully, which is normal with newer and unfamiliar substances in these sorts of organizations. It would not suck less by using, but it would be better to have it open and keep an eye on the bloodwork. It is also pretty easy to get a perfectly legal scrip in the US at no great expense, if that is the defining line, and that can be done without real actual need TBH. There's no need for a lot of things, that doesn't mean they should not or do not get used. You could run into battle with Russian made tanks too, doesn't mean it's the best way to go about it.
BUD/s isn’t special training, it’s the gut check (because Navy Boot ain’t much at all). Speciality training is the following 6-18mo, formerly SQT now STT.

Taking a shortcut during the gut check where everyone’s supposedly equal is the real problem with it at Coronado, doctrinally speaking.

Once you’re diagnosed with real test deficiency in the military and hop on TRT you’re no longer deployable on certain platforms, sea duty being a big one (especially submarines). Platforms that are regularly 60-90 days without surfacing let alone regular resupply + dudes who need their powder test and syringes lest they screw up their endocrine balance and/or fall into a depression in the absence thereof… not a smart formula and probably the major obstacle to implementing this (aside from cultural issues with steroids / “Schedule III!?!? 😱

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Re: steroids in sports

#322

Post by Hardartery » Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:28 pm

OrderInChaos wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:06 pm
Hardartery wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:28 pm
OrderInChaos wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 10:06 am
zappey1 wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:29 am
Hardartery wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:51 pm
zappey1 wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:40 pm
Hardartery wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:51 am
dw wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:34 pm
asdf wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:28 pm
Hardartery wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:30 am I don't see why the military would care. The amphetamines they hand out to pilots are way more dangerous in general than any steroids these guys are going to get into.
According to the article, at BUDS it wasn't just steroids. Human growth hormone, SARMS, Viagra for SIPE, etc.

"the chemicals some sailors are relying on can interfere with the function of the heart, liver and other critical organs that are already under incredible stress from the brutal training.

If enough people in a community are doping, he said, it spreads risk even to those who are clean, as the level of competition rises and more people are pushed to exhaustion and injury."
This seems like a legitimate problem. Seems like they should just allow the military to authorize steroid use. I mean...it quite obviously has substantial military value.
I'll be direct here, it does not seem like a legit problem. You want the level of copetition high, it is a place where people are pushing that limit with or without drugs. Growth is going to aid recovery, which is a net health positive for these guys given the relatively short term nature and given that no military guy is going to have the funds to pay for enough Growth Hormone to be dangerous. It's expensive, wherever they get it. IFBB guys are laying out close to $20k for a cycle of it to do a contest prep, no sailor can afford to pay for that much of it and it has to be refigerated at all times which would be another complication for them. The only thing I can see being a problem would be if they got on Tren, and they wouldn't because it crushes cardio endurance and that is a major problem for doing what those guys do. none of these things are as negative as alcohol or cigarettes, and they have unfettered access to both of those items.
As I said in my story when I was in at least 2 COs legit just looked the other way on ANY drugs the special warfare community was doing. They know that is hard work
I think that that is probably the correct way to handle it, honestly. They aren't hurting anyone and will end up in better nick from it even after if they go back to being natty, they would carry some of the ill-gotten gains with them. I never understood the hand wringing about these things, as if it's some unforgivable sin. They're training to risk their lives, any edge they can eke out is fine by me.
The article made it seem like they were cracking down on it. I wonder if they actually are or just saying that for the PR. There are SEAL admirals that used to be on teams and go on missions. So they probably know how it is. I don't see them kicking out their best guys because they are on steroids.
The difference with amphetamines for pilots in the past and simpler go pills now (modafinil etc) compared to anabolic supplements is that the scheduled substance is declared not illegal because it’s prescribed; same with the post doughy recovery sleeping pills. After a rigorous deployment all the flight personnel who were prescribed such have follow on care, sleep clinics, etc back in the US to ensure they’ve not become dependent (which is why the nootropics are more common than straight up speed)

It’d probably be smart if they could be more open about it and implement programs like that for combat arms troops so that PCT and actual medical personnel are involved, not just a Corpsman and dudes with syringes at the cage.

No need for substances like that in training, hell for a while they were booting anyone who used creatine at Coronado (potential for dehydration - too many recruits dying of dehydration and heat injury - new rule from the Adm). It’s a beat down and supposed to suck. Implementing anything like that should be looking at the long term effects and longevity of the personnel, and drive operational concerns. Not training.

I also think the opportunity to be one of Uncle Sam’s few legal users of anabolic regimes would boost their retention and recruiting numbers and possibly get the longer term dudes to STFU about vaccines and stay in 😂
I am not personally familiar with doing the training, and at my age am in no danger of being so. I am under the impression that Basic Training for beating them down, not the training for special teams. Anyway, amphetamines are illegal without a scrip pretty much everywhere, or just plain not available. Testosterone is OTC in most of the world. There are no particular dangers of addiction, and most guys, especially younger guys, can actually just stop and be totally fine in a few months at most. I doubt the PEDs make a huge difference in military training, but they would probably result in fewer injuries and less lost time to injury overall given the lack of 1 RM stuff involved. Banning creatine was pure ignorance, truthfully, which is normal with newer and unfamiliar substances in these sorts of organizations. It would not suck less by using, but it would be better to have it open and keep an eye on the bloodwork. It is also pretty easy to get a perfectly legal scrip in the US at no great expense, if that is the defining line, and that can be done without real actual need TBH. There's no need for a lot of things, that doesn't mean they should not or do not get used. You could run into battle with Russian made tanks too, doesn't mean it's the best way to go about it.
BUD/s isn’t special training, it’s the gut check (because Navy Boot ain’t much at all). Speciality training is the following 6-18mo, formerly SQT now STT.

Taking a shortcut during the gut check where everyone’s supposedly equal is the real problem with it at Coronado, doctrinally speaking.

Once you’re diagnosed with real test deficiency in the military and hop on TRT you’re no longer deployable on certain platforms, sea duty being a big one (especially submarines). Platforms that are regularly 60-90 days without surfacing let alone regular resupply + dudes who need their powder test and syringes lest they screw up their endocrine balance and/or fall into a depression in the absence thereof… not a smart formula and probably the major obstacle to implementing this (aside from cultural issues with steroids / “Schedule III!?!? 😱
LOL. I was thinking almost emtirely in terms of just training. They would be able to maintain most of that much easier than gaining the abilities and fitness, but you make a point to consider. What do they do with these guys in terms of tobacco? I worked in telecom, so I worked with a lot of ex-military. The Navy guys all dipped snuff and/or smoked, I wish I had asked the smoker that worked under me about that - he had been stationed on a Boomer his whole time in and was basically working to fill in the time between leaving the military and being able to collect his retirement. Dude smoke a pack or so a da, I don't imagine they let him smoke on board in that confined space.

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Re: steroids in sports

#323

Post by 5hout » Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:53 pm

Hardartery wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:28 pm
LOL. I was thinking almost emtirely in terms of just training. They would be able to maintain most of that much easier than gaining the abilities and fitness, but you make a point to consider. What do they do with these guys in terms of tobacco? I worked in telecom, so I worked with a lot of ex-military. The Navy guys all dipped snuff and/or smoked, I wish I had asked the smoker that worked under me about that - he had been stationed on a Boomer his whole time in and was basically working to fill in the time between leaving the military and being able to collect his retirement. Dude smoke a pack or so a da, I don't imagine they let him smoke on board in that confined space.
Yeah, it's insanely later than you'd think.
In 2010, the Navy successfully implemented a comprehensive smoking ban aboard submarines.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... ubmarines.

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Re: steroids in sports

#324

Post by OrderInChaos » Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:22 pm

You can sneak dip mostly just to stay awake during long evolutions. Not sure about smoking at BUD/s for the weekend liberty and stuff - but both vices + alcohol are super prevalent in all the services. Availability meets legality.

Dip, rip it’s to stay awake while carrying 60-80lbs on your back. Copious alcohol, Motrin, and maybe ambien to get to sleep and relieve pain.

Great formula to reduce life expectancy and performance over time lollll

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Re: steroids in sports

#325

Post by asdf » Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:14 pm

More on the current issues with BUD/S training, including PEDs.

NYT - "Navy Orders High-Level Outside Investigation of SEAL Course"

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Re: steroids in sports

#326

Post by asdf » Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:57 am


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Re: steroids in sports

#327

Post by zappey1 » Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:35 am

I'm sure he had no secret supplement help! :lol:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/henry-c ... 00525.html
How Henry Cavill Built Muscle and Burned Fat Simultaneously for 'The Witcher'

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Re: steroids in sports

#328

Post by zappey1 » Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:58 pm


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Re: steroids in sports

#329

Post by FredM » Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:42 am

zappey1 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:35 am I'm sure he had no secret supplement help! :lol:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/henry-c ... 00525.html
How Henry Cavill Built Muscle and Burned Fat Simultaneously for 'The Witcher'
Not to sound like a fanboy but:

1. Derek (more plates) did a pretty thorough analysis on this already and concluded he could definitely be natty
2. Henry made a big point about not taking "secret supplements" for the Superman role because it such an important character to kids
3. The article you linked has a headline that doesn't match the content at all. He didn't gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. He gained more muscle then lost a bunch of water weight for a shoot -- like every bodybuilder and ripped male actor ever.

All that said no one would be that surprised if he went on something like TRT for Witcher.

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Re: steroids in sports

#330

Post by zappey1 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:46 pm

Not the Liver King!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was anyone surprised? If you believed he was natural you are a dumb ass
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/liv ... 56122.html

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Re: steroids in sports

#331

Post by Hardartery » Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:10 pm

zappey1 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:46 pm Not the Liver King!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was anyone surprised? If you believed he was natural you are a dumb ass
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/liv ... 56122.html
The only surprise was how MUCH money he was spending. 15k on GH?

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Re: steroids in sports

#332

Post by zappey1 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:56 pm

Hardartery wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:10 pm
zappey1 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:46 pm Not the Liver King!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was anyone surprised? If you believed he was natural you are a dumb ass
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/liv ... 56122.html
The only surprise was how MUCH money he was spending. 15k on GH?
That certainly is a lot. But I guess if you have the money you may as well get the best from a shady doctor

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Re: steroids in sports

#333

Post by Hardartery » Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:51 pm

zappey1 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:56 pm
Hardartery wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:10 pm
zappey1 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:46 pm Not the Liver King!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was anyone surprised? If you believed he was natural you are a dumb ass
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/liv ... 56122.html
The only surprise was how MUCH money he was spending. 15k on GH?
That certainly is a lot. But I guess if you have the money you may as well get the best from a shady doctor
I honestly think he wasn't getting 15k in return on that, he could have done less and had the same results with fewer health risks. That is a very large pile of cash to shell out for just ONE of his PEDs, everything else together was probably less than 1k a month.

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Re: steroids in sports

#334

Post by zappey1 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:31 pm

Hardartery wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:51 pm
zappey1 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:56 pm
Hardartery wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:10 pm
zappey1 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:46 pm Not the Liver King!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was anyone surprised? If you believed he was natural you are a dumb ass
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/liv ... 56122.html
The only surprise was how MUCH money he was spending. 15k on GH?
That certainly is a lot. But I guess if you have the money you may as well get the best from a shady doctor
I honestly think he wasn't getting 15k in return on that, he could have done less and had the same results with fewer health risks. That is a very large pile of cash to shell out for just ONE of his PEDs, everything else together was probably less than 1k a month.
I honestly don't even think his physique looks good. He has a big-ass bubble gut and is not that big or cut.

Marc Bell's physique looks better IMO even though his is not great but better

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Re: steroids in sports

#335

Post by Hardartery » Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:06 pm

zappey1 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:31 pm
Hardartery wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:51 pm
zappey1 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:56 pm
Hardartery wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:10 pm
zappey1 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:46 pm Not the Liver King!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was anyone surprised? If you believed he was natural you are a dumb ass
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/liv ... 56122.html
The only surprise was how MUCH money he was spending. 15k on GH?
That certainly is a lot. But I guess if you have the money you may as well get the best from a shady doctor
I honestly think he wasn't getting 15k in return on that, he could have done less and had the same results with fewer health risks. That is a very large pile of cash to shell out for just ONE of his PEDs, everything else together was probably less than 1k a month.
I honestly don't even think his physique looks good. He has a big-ass bubble gut and is not that big or cut.

Marc Bell's physique looks better IMO even though his is not great but better
That's what I was thinking too, juice wasn't worth the squeeze. I'd want to look like at least Chris Bumstead on that volume of gear, if not maybe a mass monster. That's a serious health hit for weird abs.

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Re: steroids in sports

#336

Post by Hardartery » Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:13 am

Lu Xiaojun has supposedly been popped for EPO. LOL.

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Re: steroids in sports

#337

Post by zappey1 » Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:27 am

Are you surprised?

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Re: steroids in sports

#338

Post by Hardartery » Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:30 am

zappey1 wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:27 am Are you surprised?
Yes. Not that he was using, but that it was for EPO. That is a weird thing to get popped for as a Weightlifter. I am wondering if it somehow masks something else but didn't clear correctly.

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Re: steroids in sports

#339

Post by zappey1 » Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:10 pm

Hardartery wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:30 am
zappey1 wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:27 am Are you surprised?
Yes. Not that he was using, but that it was for EPO. That is a weird thing to get popped for as a Weightlifter. I am wondering if it somehow masks something else but didn't clear correctly.
I would say that is a safe bet

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Re: steroids in sports

#340

Post by CaptainAwesome » Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:37 am

FredM wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:42 am
zappey1 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:35 am I'm sure he had no secret supplement help! :lol:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/henry-c ... 00525.html
How Henry Cavill Built Muscle and Burned Fat Simultaneously for 'The Witcher'
Not to sound like a fanboy but:

1. Derek (more plates) did a pretty thorough analysis on this already and concluded he could definitely be natty
2. Henry made a big point about not taking "secret supplements" for the Superman role because it such an important character to kids
3. The article you linked has a headline that doesn't match the content at all. He didn't gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. He gained more muscle then lost a bunch of water weight for a shoot -- like every bodybuilder and ripped male actor ever.

All that said no one would be that surprised if he went on something like TRT for Witcher.
Those articles are often written by people who have no idea how the process works anyway. Just reading it, the person seems to actually believe it's training that makes most of the bodyfat go away. I mean, I guess it COULD, if you spend hours a day doing stuff. Fuck if I know what effect that would have on muscles though. It doesn't actually really matter, but Cavill seems like the most buyable of the celebrity physiques. Instead of the usual MCU "shlub to fitness model in 6 months" type crap we often see, Cavill actually took two years to go from a pretty goddamn lean, fit guy in Immortals to a slightly less lean guy with bigger muscles in Man of Steel. Doesn't mean even that didn't have some special sauce involved, but it's not far-fetched. The only thing that makes me wonder is his recent entry into the rockosphere. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. If dudes want to take shit to portray larger than life muscular characters, especially when they are in middle age or beyond, that's fine. The only thing about it that bothers me is morons who have no idea what they're talking about swearing up and down these people are natty and have just hit some new level of "hard work" that makes a 50 year old man lean and extremely muscular, moreso than he was in his 20s and 30s when he was also no doubt doing "hard work".

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