The epic tales of Corn Pop’s young companion (POTUS46 complaint department)

[Hanley]

The Marshall plan had a lot to do with the rise of the Nazi party

Do you mean

He pulled the wrong thing out of his ass.

Meant to grab Treaty of Versailles.

[5hout]

The Marshall plan had a lot to do with the rise of the Nazi party

Do you mean

He pulled the wrong thing out of his ass.

Meant to grab Treaty of Versailles.

I don't disagree, but it's squat max day, the pre-workout is kicking in and I feel filled with good will towards all.

[Hardartery]

And thus is born another Fox watcher.

I dunno what this means nowadays.

If you don't want to debate hardartery's half-baked contrarian positions, you are born a Fox Watcher.

#logic

LOL. No, I was poking at the idea that rather than reason back and forth someone would simply disengage in the face of a different opinion. I did not expect it to be taken as more than a jab, I'm not THAT serious about a lot of this. The idea that the World Bank or US foreign policy has anything to do with helping other peoples is ridiculous though. I think AMericans in general do want to help everyone else and are well motivated. The government and it's actions have nothing to do with that motivation though. Disclaimer- I possess Canadian and American citizenship, so I technically am talking about myself as well.

[Hardartery]

The Marshall plan had a lot to do with the rise of the Nazi party

Do you mean

He pulled the wrong thing out of his ass.

Meant to grab Treaty of Versailles.

Yep, you got me. My mind pulls out the wrong thing sometimes. The idea that the full cost of the first Workd War could be extracted from Germany in short order by causing them massive economic suffering was a key factor in the sentiment that led to Hitler's rise. That's pretty far from an unusual or contrarian opinion.

[Hardartery]

The Marshall plan had a lot to do with the rise of the Nazi party

Would you care to elaborate on this? Do you mean some variation of "the shape of the Marshall plan was set by a desire to prevent NAZI Germany 2.0, by rebuilding a new, less-violent Germany instead of engaging in punishment along the lines of the Treaty of Versailles"?
[/quote]

I indeed typed the wrong thing. I admit it. Marshall was the other war. My mistake.

[Hardartery]

China already did this to themselves.

Kind of.

"Kind of"? China literally imposed import tariffs on food and agriculture products from the US in response to Trump's tariffs.

I don't think that China has a prolem with quietly letting people starve to death to further the country as a whole in a political dispute. They don't really seem to care. Add to that they will literally eat anything, all that can be accomplished to to limit their choices. They have plenty of boats illegally harvesting all the different forms of ocean life wherever they can get away with it. Micronesia has a Coast Guard/Navy that basically exists just to try and keep them chased out. They'll even sneak in and strip the sea cucumbers from an area to take back to China to sell as food. If you'll eat those things, you are going to be hard to starve.

[SnakePlissken]

China already did this to themselves.

Kind of.

"Kind of"? China literally imposed import tariffs on food and agriculture products from the US in response to Trump's tariffs.

I don't think that China has a prolem with quietly letting people starve to death to further the country as a whole in a political dispute. They don't really seem to care. Add to that they will literally eat anything, all that can be accomplished to to limit their choices. They have plenty of boats illegally harvesting all the different forms of ocean life wherever they can get away with it. Micronesia has a Coast Guard/Navy that basically exists just to try and keep them chased out. They'll even sneak in and strip the sea cucumbers from an area to take back to China to sell as food. If you'll eat those things, you are going to be hard to starve.

*Chinese guy eats his bat and pangolin soup while reading this comment*

[JonA]

China already did this to themselves.

Kind of.

"Kind of"? China literally imposed import tariffs on food and agriculture products from the US in response to Trump's tariffs.

I don't think that China has a prolem with quietly letting people starve to death to further the country as a whole in a political dispute.

Except they lifted the tariffs after internal shortages started occurring.

[Hanley]

The Marshall plan had a lot to do with the rise of the Nazi party

Do you mean

He pulled the wrong thing out of his ass.

Meant to grab Treaty of Versailles.

Yep, you got me. My mind pulls out the wrong thing sometimes. The idea that the full cost of the first Workd War could be extracted from Germany in short order by causing them massive economic suffering was a key factor in the sentiment that led to Hitler's rise. That's pretty far from an unusual or contrarian opinion.

It was more the notion that the the outcomes from the Treaty of Versailles could retroactively undermine the US's initial moral justification for entering WWI or undermine their moral justification for entering WWII.

[Hanley]

it's squat max day

Good squat vibes in your direction

[Hardartery]

The Marshall plan had a lot to do with the rise of the Nazi party

Do you mean

He pulled the wrong thing out of his ass.

Meant to grab Treaty of Versailles.

Yep, you got me. My mind pulls out the wrong thing sometimes. The idea that the full cost of the first Workd War could be extracted from Germany in short order by causing them massive economic suffering was a key factor in the sentiment that led to Hitler's rise. That's pretty far from an unusual or contrarian opinion.

It was more the notion that the the outcomes rom the Treaty of Versailles could retroactively undermine the US's initial moral justification for entering WWI or undermine their moral justification for entering WWII.

Having a moral justification and that being the actual reason for doing something are different. The Nazi's were morally reprehensible and anyone with a sense of justice would have a problem with them. Stopping them as an entity is not a bad thing, it is clearly a good thing. The economic subjugation of the country following WW1 was clearly a driving factor in the formation and rise of the Nazi party. When people feel completely disenfranchised and think that they are being treated unfairly by the system they become open to options that would otherwise hold no appeal. Like Trump. Just sayin'.

[Hanley]

The economic subjugation of the country following WW1 was clearly a driving factor in the formation and rise of the Nazi party. When people feel completely disenfranchised and think that they are being treated unfairly by the system they become open to options that would otherwise hold no appeal.

I don't think anyone has (or will) challenge this. It's the standard interpretation of western history.

The hang-up is your suggestion that US/allied intervention in WW2 could be interpreted as anything but "net good" for...a lot of people.

[DoctorWho]

Their eventual efforts in the World Wars could be arguably good for things in the long run.

Time will tell, time will tell.

The Weimar Republic arrangement is arguably a main driver in the problems that helped bring about the Nazi party and bring Hitler to power, which is the main driver behind the advent of the Second World War, so millions od people dying could be easily considered a price paid to clean up an unnecessary mess. Just because the Allies won both times doesn't mean it was rightful interference or that any of it was handled well. You could make the argument that the interference caused a much bigger problem than it solved and resulted in millions of unnecessary deaths. Just sayin'.

A unique view.

[Hardartery]

The economic subjugation of the country following WW1 was clearly a driving factor in the formation and rise of the Nazi party. When people feel completely disenfranchised and think that they are being treated unfairly by the system they become open to options that would otherwise hold no appeal.

I don't think anyone has (or will) challenge this. It's the standard interpretation of western history.

The hang-up is your suggestion that US/allied intervention in WW2 could be interpreted as anything but "net good" for...a lot of people.

There are a lot of people dead from that. Earlier action could have changed that dramatically, but the public will wasn't there. So it wasn't really motivated strictly by a motivation to do what's right. The Jews that fled Germany and could not gain asylum might argue as to merits of everything as well. At least one ship load of them was sent back to Germany and asylum denied. I think the problem is in people's general feeling that any of ths was motivated by altruism or an actual desire to do something for the sake of doing the right thing.

[DoctorWho]

Since economic policy to move manufacturing and such back to the USA is a non-starter due to price increases that would come from it(or subsidies, which are just price increases assuming taxes have to be raised to support them), maybe we could do smaller subsidies to encourage manufacturing to move to friendlier countries? Or where the human rights abuses are more in line with capitalism, like low wages and terrible working conditions rather than genocide and slavery?

While a bit tongue in cheek, one is far better than the other.

I also know we like to throw capitalism under the bus here, but consumerism is more of the problem, I think.

The long term problem is that China has cracked the code on free-market economics and decentralized control by having the government own a slice of important companies. The CCP gets the benefit of the energy of competition via private enterprise, while the companies do whatever is asked of them, like Huawei hiding CCP spyware on telecom chips. And it takes very little overt censorship by official CCP channels, it's done by the "private" companies themselves.

So my (pretty much uneducated) guess is that Hong Kong and Taiwan will eventually be swallowed up. China's influence in the US will grow, with the promise of a Chinese market (for Disney, the NBA, etc) or indirect payments to media companies and universities swaying US view.

The only thing I want to see is the US two party system to survive.

[mgil]

So my (pretty much uneducated) guess is that Hong Kong and Taiwan will eventually be swallowed up. China's influence in the US will grow, with the promise of a Chinese market (for Disney, the NBA, etc) or indirect payments to media companies and universities swaying US view.

I'm pretty sure China was subsidizing MBA student tours as far back as 2003.

GM has been growing in China (via Buick and Cadillac, iirc) for about 20 yeas now.

US Media did touch upon some of the HK issues and Uyghur issues a while back, but those get shuffled in the mix and left to die because they don't align with buzzworthy stuff.

There's definitely some quid pro quo going on.

[aurelius]

Except they lifted the tariffs after internal shortages started occurring.

Hence my 'kind of'. China lifted the tariffs they imposed on themselves when it actually started causing some problems. Versus a comprehensive plan initiated by the US to impose those tariffs on China.

But the comprehensive plan would have to start disengaging the US-China supply chain ASAP. Chinese companies should not be allowed to own real estate and ports of entry in the US. I 100% believe the Chinese should face sanctions for the intellectual theft they have committed over the past 3 decades. A good start would be to punish Chinese companies. The US will need to create economic partners that will introduce inefficiencies into our trade. The Trump administration seemed to lack the wherewithal to perform and carry out comprehensive planning on well, anything. But I liked they more openly talked about the real China and were wiling to do something. I hope the Biden Admin does not go back to the status quo on China.

[DoctorWho]

So my (pretty much uneducated) guess is that Hong Kong and Taiwan will eventually be swallowed up. China's influence in the US will grow, with the promise of a Chinese market (for Disney, the NBA, etc) or indirect payments to media companies and universities swaying US view.

I'm pretty sure China was subsidizing MBA student tours as far back as 2003.

GM has been growing in China (via Buick and Cadillac, iirc) for about 20 yeas now.

US Media did touch upon some of the HK issues and Uyghur issues a while back, but those get shuffled in the mix and left to die because they don't align with buzzworthy stuff.

There's definitely some quid pro quo going on.

During the times you cite, I think the conventional wisdom was that economic ties would be good for both countries. Comparative advantage, inexpensive products help US consumers, people taken out of poverty and growing middle class in China would moderate the CCP. Not sure but I think the its only made the CCP braver and more capable.

I thought Cooper's questions of Biden were pretty good, but agree with you about chasing the buzzworthy. And the business model the press has now is to write off one side or the other. Rachael Maddow & Breitbart have no incentive to be even-handed. All made worse by social media algorithms.

[aurelius]

There are a lot of people dead from that. Earlier action could have changed that dramatically, but the public will wasn't there. So it wasn't really motivated strictly by a motivation to do what's right. The Jews that fled Germany and could not gain asylum might argue as to merits of everything as well. At least one ship load of them was sent back to Germany and asylum denied. I think the problem is in people's general feeling that any of ths was motivated by altruism or an actual desire to do something for the sake of doing the right thing.

So your argument is that the League of Nations should have acted sooner on Germany in WW2...okay. Thanks for that. And? Seems like you got a beef with the League of Nations. Whom the US was just a bit player as it was not a world authority at that time.

That very obvious opinion does not negate the US role in WW2 in defeating the Nazis. My recollection informs me that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Not Germany. Yet the US threw 2/3 of its armed might against Germany.

As to the various world organizations and their roles over the years: sure, they are not perfect and many cases have caused more harm than good. Simply look at the World Bank and how it has tried to economically intervene in various countries. But that was due to simple incompetence and not 'representing the interests of the Western Hegemony'. Just go read a few economic books on the subject. International finance and economics is HARD. A lot of players and understanding unintended consequences becomes problematic.

You seem to be someone that knows very little history in terms of breadth. IT is as if you were taught US exceptionalism that primarily focuses on 1800's after. And has filled the gaps with essentially anti-Western thought. Which somehow forgets the US was not a world power until WW2. The US has been a world power for less than 100 year. I promise it is not directly responsible for EVERYTHING.

If you are really interested in why the way the world is the way it is today, learn about the British Empire. Which collapsed following WW2. The British Empire carved up and created the world map we still see today. They did so for the direct purpose of control. They purposely lumped disparate, warring groups together and then would set the groups against one and another to control areas. They had little interest in creating self governance and were full on implementing a mercantile economic model. And how else does a small island become a the world's largest Empire? Controlling huge swathes of Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. Today those same dynamics are still playing out in those same areas. You want to cast blame of the plight of Africa on someone other than the Africans...British Empire is a pretty good place to start.

But honestly huge portions of the world are third world countries not because 'someone is keeping them down'.,,a silly, childish narrative that needs to go away. Huge portions of the world are third world countries because they suck at self governance, are too locked in tribalism, and lack the national identity to pull together. It isn't some mystery that countries with ample national resources and farmable land face starvation and despotic rule. There are a plethora of historic, economic, and even legal (yes, legal...property rights are HUGE to a burgeoning economies) books that cover the subject. The NWO theories are conspiracies given life by the failures of Western policy. But they have to ignore the success of many third world economies that used their 'exploitation' by first world countries to build viable economies and become second and first world countries. Asian Tigers...and I'm including China in that (though not a traditional Asian Tiger) are great examples. Remember when China used to be a just cheap place to manufacture things? They've come along way in 30-40 years. One country's exploitation is another's opportunity.

[5hout]

But the comprehensive plan would have to start disengaging the US-China supply chain ASAP. Chinese companies should not be allowed to own real estate and ports of entry in the US. I 100% believe the Chinese should face sanctions for the intellectual theft they have committed over the past 3 decades. A good start would be to punish Chinese companies. The US will need to create economic partners that will introduce inefficiencies into our trade. The Trump administration seemed to lack the wherewithal to perform and carry out comprehensive planning on well, anything. But I liked they more openly talked about the real China and were wiling to do something. I hope the Biden Admin does not go back to the status quo on China.

The long term problem is that China has cracked the code on free-market economics and decentralized control by having the government own a slice of important companies. The CCP gets the benefit of the energy of competition via private enterprise, while the companies do whatever is asked of them, like Huawei hiding CCP spyware on telecom chips. And it takes very little overt censorship by official CCP channels, it's done by the "private" companies themselves.

I agree with all of the above. I think one of the scarier things that China is doing, right now, is slowly extending control over US Media and media-adjacent companies by allowing them into the Chinese market, but then strictly controlling the internal product. Over time as the share of profit from China grows it is easier for the companies to produce 1 product, acceptable in China and palatable in the US, vs the current state of producing a US product then spending years getting Chinese approval.

Example: Wrath of the Lich King had ~2 year delay on Chinese release because of the internal approval process. That's fine if China is a small share of your market, but when your profit margin is China, then you'll simply make a product that is requires 0-a few months to be released in China.

Example: Tencent's 'control' of Riot Games has, over-time, changed the art style and balancing of the game b/c certain skins and characters cannot be released in China as is, and others are simply wildly more profitable.

These examples are small potatoes, but if you accept that politics are at least somewhat downstream of media, then it shows the potential scariness of having China controlling media companies. China is willing to use its market power and soft control of Chinese companies, the US seems terrified of risking even smaller profits by exercising control over US companies in a coherent or medium term manner.

When Pres. Biden came out a bit ago and said that the US was going to tackle Chinese issues problem by problem it seemed (to me) to be essentially a surrender on this front. If you won't leverage the various problems against each other, then it is going to be very hard to get any wins vs a more coherent long-term strategy. Of course, public statements are signaling, and it will take time to see what actions the Biden administration actually takes, but so far I'm not pleased.

EDIT: @Hanley Thanks!