The Russia vs Ukraine show

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BostonRugger
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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#21

Post by BostonRugger » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:25 am

You're correct that we're not going to agree on the proper role of the US in the world. I suppose we can retreat to corners for now, but the capitalism is slavery bit is enough of an aside (not sure if you're sincere or just poking back at my argument), and one I've heard often enough that I want to address it.
aurelius wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:56 am
BostonRugger wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:07 amConscription is slavery. Even in muh WW2, slavery is bad. Call me an extremist I guess.
Capitalism is slavery. Sure we have it better than those that came before. But work or starve is the mantra.

Conscription is a 'necessary evil' which is less necessary as military might no longer depends on manpower. Or at least it has not in the types of engagements the US has been involved in.
By the "capitalism is slavery because eat or starve" logic, human existence is slavery. Existing in a world where we need to consume finite resources to survive is a far cry from slavery (next step for that position is to bring up enclosure, but trust me this dog won't hunt).

Conscription on the other hand has very clear parallels to our traditional idea of slavery. A second party can physically take me away, dispose of me and my labor as it sees fit, and put me against the wall for refusal. Call it a janissary, child soldier, draftee or slave, it's all the same.

We agree that conscription is evil. 'Necessary" is subjective and like you said, we're pretty far apart on this.

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#22

Post by GrainsAndGains » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:48 am

I don't like the idea of a revanchist Russian empire - I think it's bad for the people in those countries who justifiably do not want to live under Russia's thumb, bad for Russia itself (other than Putin and his cronies), and bad for the rest of the world.

But if our ostensible European allies don't consider Russia a serious threat enough threat to consider military action I don't think we should, either. They have the most skin in the game and Germany at least appears largely OK with whatever's about to happen, and obviously there's no great enthusiasm for the kind of military buildup that would be necessary to fight a protracted war with Russia in most of NATO.

Also, we kind of suck at war right now - we lost badly against technologically inferior opponents with poor leadership in Afghanistan and Iraq. Russia is a lot closer to us technologically and we won't just be able to take out their military leadership with drone strikes whenever we need to. Whether or not we can actually win the damn conflict is a major factor that should be considered before any kind of military action. Given how much the limits of US power have been exposed lately I'm shocked that this isn't coming up more often.

I also can't envision a wave of popular support for US intervention in Ukraine - conservatives, the more natural pro-war faction, won't support a war with Joe Biden as commander-in-chief, progressives are generally more anti-war to begin with, and everyone else is just exhausted and apathetic from two years of pandemic to come together in support of a war against a country that has not attacked the United States the way we were attacked on 9/11.

It's still probably a good idea to arm Ukraine so they can make it as difficult as possible for Russia and maybe even pull off an upset. It also might be a good idea to deploy troops to the Baltics and Eastern European and hope Putin doesn't call the bluff. But I would stop short of an actual war.

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aurelius
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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#23

Post by aurelius » Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:25 pm

GrainsAndGains wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:48 amAlso, we kind of suck at war right now - we lost badly against technologically inferior opponents with poor leadership in Afghanistan and Iraq. Russia is a lot closer to us technologically and we won't just be able to take out their military leadership with drone strikes whenever we need to. Whether or not we can actually win the damn conflict is a major factor that should be considered before any kind of military action. Given how much the limits of US power have been exposed lately I'm shocked that this isn't coming up more often.
This is false. The US military achieved outstanding victories in both cases. The USSR never controlled Afghanistan to give a counter example. That is an example of a technologically inferior force defeating a super power.

What you are describing are the limits of military power. The political mission changed and failed in both instances. Nation building is not a role militaries are apt to perform. And I would not describe Iraq as a failure. Certainly not a run away success. Definitely not a worthwhile investment of US lives and resources.

The nation building political mission of Afghanistan is a failure. The original political mission of removing a base for international terrorism will likely become a failure. The Taliban will not engage in international terrorism. It is also likely the Taliban state will fail and even more extreme groups will fill the vacuum. Which is why the US may prop up the Taliban government in the near future. Politics makes strange bed fellows.

To address this latest instance of Russian aggression in Ukraine: The US just needs to stop Russian expansion. It does not need to topple Putin's regime and nation build. In that limited and defined role, with the support of European allies, the US should have a high level of confidence in the outcome.

And so does Russia. Which is why Russia has not whole sale invaded Eastern Europe. And plays all of these shadow games. Just enough to not force a confrontation with NATO. Because NATO would crush Russia. But that's the problem. If Russia is going to adopt the strategy of death by a thousand cuts, then when does NATO respond? The lessons of history inform me that every time an aggressor is allowed minor transgressions, they become emboldened.

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#24

Post by BostonRugger » Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:40 pm

GrainsAndGains wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:48 am I also can't envision a wave of popular support for US intervention in Ukraine - conservatives, the more natural pro-war faction, won't support a war with Joe Biden as commander-in-chief, progressives are generally more anti-war to begin with, and everyone else is just exhausted and apathetic from two years of pandemic to come together in support of a war against a country that has not attacked the United States the way we were attacked on 9/11.
2022 off to a strong start here in America. We got through 5 decades of the Cold War, Stalin, Kruschev, noted sociopath Lyndon Johnson, and no shooting directly at the Russians in their back yard. If we let ourselves be led into a hot war* with Putin by a barely sentient potato with a 40% approval rating, we deserve whatever happens next.

Edit: War - the thing we used to believe had to be declared by congress. The stakes shouldn't be nearly as high as they are right now due to the political dynamics GAndG outlined above. Again, blame George CIA Bush's dumbest son for all this. AUMF Afghanistan gonna AUMF Afghanistan.

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#25

Post by Cellist » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:56 pm

BostonRugger wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:40 pm
GrainsAndGains wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:48 am I also can't envision a wave of popular support for US intervention in Ukraine - conservatives, the more natural pro-war faction, won't support a war with Joe Biden as commander-in-chief, progressives are generally more anti-war to begin with, and everyone else is just exhausted and apathetic from two years of pandemic to come together in support of a war against a country that has not attacked the United States the way we were attacked on 9/11.
2022 off to a strong start here in America. We got through 5 decades of the Cold War, Stalin, Kruschev, noted sociopath Lyndon Johnson, and no shooting directly at the Russians in their back yard. If we let ourselves be led into a hot war* with Putin by a barely sentient potato with a 40% approval rating, we deserve whatever happens next.

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KyleSchuant
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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#26

Post by KyleSchuant » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:52 pm

aurelius wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:25 pmThe US military achieved outstanding victories in both cases.
Here's a good and relevant book:

https://www.bookdepository.com/The-Cult ... 0312423193

It's the "you can't fire me, I quit!" sort of psychology. I find it interesting.

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mbasic
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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#27

Post by mbasic » Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:34 am

Culican wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:34 am I think I'll buy some Raytheon stock tomorrow.
Image

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#28

Post by BostonRugger » Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:09 am

Here's a cool guy that supports military intervention in Ukraine.

https://www.usip.org/people/stephen-j-hadley

He's a former Raytheon board member who occasionally does things like puplish op-eds in the Washington post, praising the assasination of Suleimeni, without disclosing that whole Raytheon thing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html

Now he's on the Board of Directors of a super cool sounding organization called US Institute of Peace (Ministry of Truth much?) where his page also doesn't note the Raytheon relationship. Another super cool Director of that org is current US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken. So you've got the Harvard Guy and the Raytheon guy. If they have someone from NYT, we can just put the team back together and run the WMD playbook to get the public support rollin'.

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#29

Post by aurelius » Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:26 am

Read some more. I could be convinced the best option is:

1) Let Russia invade Ukraine.
2) Europe stops using Russian gas (looking at Germany)
3) Targeted economic strikes against Russian organizations/companies abroad
4) Heavy economic sanctions

Ukraine will likely be a nightmare for Russia to occupy. Europe can survive without Russian gas (the US can help with that). Heavy sanctions do have an impact (even though Russia has a $600 billion reserve for sanctions). Putin hated the sanctions under Obama. The four combined will likely halt all future Russian ambitions for a decade.

This ignores the human cost Ukrainians will pay. But all is fair in love and geopolitics.

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#30

Post by Hardartery » Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:18 am

BostonRugger wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:28 am
Did not read link, per custom. Proxy war with Russia is just about the dustiest 20th century meme there is, outside of Bill Kristol's entire career. There is no US interest in Ukraine unless we want to give Archer Daniels Midland a hookup on some wheat fields. The only way that Russia could be considered a threat to the United Sates (you know, the geographic area between Canada and Mexico) is through their nuclear weapons. Shall we get out our maps and look at where Ukraine is? It's Russia. It has been Russia (and Poland and Austro Hungary, and blahblah) before and if it's Russia again, I can't imagine why I should care about that.
If you substitue "Alaska" everywhere you typed "Ukraine".....

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#31

Post by BostonRugger » Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:27 am

Hardartery wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:18 am
BostonRugger wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:28 am
Did not read link, per custom. Proxy war with Russia is just about the dustiest 20th century meme there is, outside of Bill Kristol's entire career. There is no US interest in Ukraine unless we want to give Archer Daniels Midland a hookup on some wheat fields. The only way that Russia could be considered a threat to the United Sates (you know, the geographic area between Canada and Mexico) is through their nuclear weapons. Shall we get out our maps and look at where Ukraine is? It's Russia. It has been Russia (and Poland and Austro Hungary, and blahblah) before and if it's Russia again, I can't imagine why I should care about that.
If you substitue "Alaska" everywhere you typed "Ukraine".....

Alaska is also fun to bring up when people object to my desire for secession and decentralization (I'd say Balkanization, but in BRWorld, we're going with much smaller units) in the US. Nothing sacred about the present shape of our borders.

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#32

Post by zappey1 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:00 pm

Biden says no U.S. or NATO troops will be sent to Ukraine if Russia invades
Well I guess this settles this thread:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-says-n ... 15427.html

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#33

Post by aurelius » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:36 am

Anyone here registered for the New York Times The Morning? It is a pretty informative email sent out every morning. It is free. Highly recommend.

Here is a discussion on the ramifications of the Trump Administration's foreign policy as it relates to current situation in Europe.

Germany, apart
Donald Trump has made a habit of deriding the U.S. alliance with Western Europe. He described NATO — the American-led alliance with Europe that dates to the 1940s — as “obsolete” and said that Americans were “schmucks” for financing it. He mused about withdrawing the U.S. from NATO and often spoke more positively about Russia than about longtime American allies like Germany and France.

These comments were a radical departure from the policies of every U.S. president, Republican and Democrat, for 75 years. Still, because Trump did not make good on his biggest threats, the tangible effects were not always clear.

Now they are becoming clearer.

Russia has massed about 125,000 troops on its border with Ukraine, threatening an invasion that would be the most substantial ground war in Europe since the end of World War II. To prevent that, President Biden, Prime Minister Boris Johnson of Britain and several other leaders are trying to present a unified front and tell Russia that it would suffer severe economic consequences. But one crucial country is missing from that united front: Germany.

As Katrin Bennhold, The Times’s Berlin bureau chief, writes:

Denmark is sending fighter jets to Lithuania and a frigate to the Baltic Sea. France has offered to send troops to Romania. Spain is sending a frigate to the Black Sea. President Biden has put thousands of U.S. troops on “high alert.”

And then there is Germany. In recent days Germany — Europe’s largest and richest democracy, strategically situated at the crossroads between East and West — has stood out more for what it will not do than for what it is doing.

Germany’s government, under its new chancellor, Olaf Scholz, has ruled out any arms exports to Ukraine. It is also delaying a shipment of howitzers from Estonia to Ukraine. It may have kept British planes from using German airspace when sending military supplies to Ukraine last week.

Most significantly, the Scholz government has been vague about whether a Russian invasion would lead to the shutdown of an undersea gas pipeline between Germany and Russia. The pipeline, the Nord Stream 2, will become a major source of energy for Germany and a major source of revenue for Russia once it begins operating, likely in the next year. Scholz recently described Nord Stream 2 as a “private-sector project.”


Pipes for Nord Stream 2 in Germany.Jens Buettner/DPA, via Associated Press
Trumpism in action
The pipeline’s history highlights the long-term consequences of Trump’s hostility to Europe. For years, many U.S. officials opposed Nord Stream 2, understanding that it would solidify ties between Germany and Russia. It is also likely to damage Ukraine’s economy; much of Russia’s natural gas has flowed through Ukraine, which receives fees in exchange.

But Trump showed little interest in building a good relationship with Germany as a way to persuade it to abandon the pipeline. He instead criticized America’s longtime allies in Europe — and treated Russian President Vladimir Putin warmly.

Trump’s hostility to Western Europe, in turn, encouraged Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor at the time, to ponder a future in which the U.S. might be pulling back from NATO. In that scenario, friendly relations with Russia (and China, too) would have advantages, especially because of its importance to European energy supplies.

“By the time Biden took office, the pipeline was nearly complete,” said my colleague Michael Crowley, who covered Secretary of State Antony Blinken’s trip to Germany last week. “Biden calculated that restoring relations with Berlin after the Trump era was far too important to risk with a last-ditch and potentially futile effort to stop the project.”

Instead, Biden waived sanctions — which Congress established starting in 2017 — on companies that worked on the pipeline. It was too late to prevent completion, he decided.

Trump’s European policy is hardly the only reason that the pipeline exists. Discussions about it began before he was president, reflecting decades of close ties between Germany and Russia, as Katrin notes. But Trump’s foreign policy diminished American influence in Europe — and, if anything, sent signals that the U.S. favored closer ties between Russia and Western Europe.

Leaders across much of Eastern Europe are not happy about these developments. Ukraine’s foreign minister has accused Berlin of effectively “encouraging” Russian aggression. A senior Lithuanian official said that Germany was “making a big strategic mistake and putting its reputation at risk.”

Putin, on the other hand, seems thrilled. He has embarked on a campaign to weaken democracies and strengthen autocracies, both in his own region (as in Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Belarus) and elsewhere (through election misinformation campaigns in the U.S. and Western Europe). Despite this aggression, NATO is not unified in confronting him, giving Putin more leeway to act as he chooses.

“He well recognizes that Europe’s main power base is France, Germany and Britain,” Tobias Ellwood, a member of Britain’s Parliament who helps set military policy, told The Washington Post. “If these three countries are united, the rest of Europe follows. If you can sow divisions among these three, then there’s no leadership, there’s no coordination and there’s no unity.”

The divisions even extend to internal U.S. politics. This week, Tom Malinowski, a Democrat who represents New Jersey in the House, tweeted: “My office is now getting calls from folks who say they watch Tucker Carlson and are upset that we’re not siding with Russia in its threats to invade Ukraine, and who want me to support Russia’s ‘reasonable’ positions.”

It’s still possible that Germany will do more to discourage an invasion than it has so far. Scholz said recently that Russia would suffer “high costs” if it invades. Yet Putin is savvy enough to understand the difference between a unified, clear European effort to prevent an invasion and a muddled one. Germany has chosen a muddle so far.

It’s a sign that Trump has succeeded at one of his foreign-policy goals: creating distance between the U.S. and at least some parts of NATO.

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#34

Post by omaniphil » Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:14 am

aurelius wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:36 am Germany....
Highly agree with the comment about the NYT Morning newsletter. It's excellent. The Dispatch also has an excellent morning newsletter, and they talked a little about Germany's motivations with respect to what is happening in the Ukraine and with Russia. It's behind a paywall, so I'll excerpt a little of it here:
https://morning.thedispatch.com/p/the-m ... many-drags
But Nikos Tsafos—an expert on the geopolitics of energy at Center for Strategic and International Studies—thinks it’s a “bit too reductionist” to attribute Germany’s behavior entirely to its reliance on Russia’s gas production. “There’s an idea in German foreign policy that goes back 50 years, that engagement with Russia is the best way to deal with the Russian threat,” he told The Dispatch. “Russia is there, and you have to deal with them, and cutting off ties and not having business relations is just not really an option.”

Dickinson described something similar, but attributed the phenomenon to residual German guilt from World War II. “The German invasion of the Soviet Union was one of the bloodiest episodes in world history,” he said, referencing a 1994 Russian study that estimated about 26.6 million Soviets died in the conflict—including millions upon millions of civilians. “This sense of war guilt towards Russia and … the responsibility Germany has for maintaining a good relationship with Russia, is very strong, and very real, and felt by a lot of Germans.”

But Ukraine was a Soviet republic at that time, of course, and Yale University historian Timothy Snyder has argued that Soviet Ukraine World War II deaths actually outnumbered Soviet Russia ones. “You can go into parts of Ukraine where you won’t see a single [pre-war] building because everything was destroyed, whole towns were destroyed,” Dickinson said. “So Ukrainians look at this German war guilt—and Germans speak openly about their historical responsibility—and Ukrainians are just bemused by this. They say, ‘Where’s your historical responsibility to us? Don’t we count?’”
I'd be curious to know if this rings true to any of our resident Germans - @Cellist?

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#35

Post by zappey1 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:23 pm

aurelius wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:36 am Anyone here registered for the New York Times The Morning? It is a pretty informative email sent out every morning. It is free. Highly recommend.

Here is a discussion on the ramifications of the Trump Administration's foreign policy as it relates to current situation in Europe.

The problem I have with this is at what point is it no longer DTs fault? It has been 1 year since he left office. Sleepy Joe has reversed TONS of Trumps policies. But because he doesn't want to stand up to Russia it is DTs fault?

He could have changed things if he wanted to instead of blaming the last guy that left a year ago.

I don't blame the 5th grade teachers for student in 6th grade I try to teach them the best I can and fill in the gaps in knowledge. It is not productive to play a blame game IMO.

When can Sleepy Joe stop blaming Trump? Year 2? Year 3?

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#36

Post by aurelius » Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:49 pm

zappey1 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:23 pmThe problem I have with this is at what point is it no longer DTs fault? It has been 1 year since he left office. Sleepy Joe has reversed TONS of Trumps policies. But because he doesn't want to stand up to Russia it is DTs fault?

He could have changed things if he wanted to instead of blaming the last guy that left a year ago.

I don't blame the 5th grade teachers for student in 6th grade I try to teach them the best I can and fill in the gaps in knowledge. It is not productive to play a blame game IMO.

When can Sleepy Joe stop blaming Trump? Year 2? Year 3?
Yikes. This is a bad take and a complete lack of understanding on how foreign policy is implemented and diplomacy works. The article discusses how Germany, a primary player in NATO, refuses to move against Russia. And how the Trump administration policies pushed Germany to strengthen political and economic ties with Russia.

Trump gutted the State Department and spent 4 years alienating our European allies. That's very bad. Trump supporters really loved what Trump did state side for the culture wars. But very few paid attention to foreign policy. Or really understanding the implications of Trump's foreign policy. The conservative tactic of 'owning' those you politically disagree with does not play well internationally. So 'owning' NATO and our European allies by denigrating them and threatening to leave NATO turns out wasn't a great move.

Biden could have sucked every dick in Berlin for a year and still not repair the damage. Also, the Nordic Stream 2, one of the main drivers behind Germany's reluctance to face Russia, was a done deal by the time Biden took office.

Trump actively created dissention in NATO's ranks (remember how he mocked NATO and withheld military funding from Ukraine?), alienated our European allies, and allowed Russian ambitions to go unchecked. This is the result of weakening alliances and strengthening adversaries.

It takes longer to build and fix than to destroy. It is perfectly reasonable to assign blame where it belongs.

Is it your position that the US must intervene militarily for Biden to 'stand up' to Putin?

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#37

Post by zappey1 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:25 pm

aurelius wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:49 pm
zappey1 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:23 pmThe problem I have with this is at what point is it no longer DTs fault? It has been 1 year since he left office. Sleepy Joe has reversed TONS of Trumps policies. But because he doesn't want to stand up to Russia it is DTs fault?

He could have changed things if he wanted to instead of blaming the last guy that left a year ago.

I don't blame the 5th grade teachers for student in 6th grade I try to teach them the best I can and fill in the gaps in knowledge. It is not productive to play a blame game IMO.

When can Sleepy Joe stop blaming Trump? Year 2? Year 3?
Yikes. This is a bad take and a complete lack of understanding on how foreign policy is implemented and diplomacy works. The article discusses how Germany, a primary player in NATO, refuses to move against Russia. And how the Trump administration policies pushed Germany to strengthen political and economic ties with Russia.

Trump gutted the State Department and spent 4 years alienating our European allies. That's very bad. Trump supporters really loved what Trump did state side for the culture wars. But very few paid attention to foreign policy. Or really understanding the implications of Trump's foreign policy. The conservative tactic of 'owning' those you politically disagree with does not play well internationally. So 'owning' NATO and our European allies by denigrating them and threatening to leave NATO turns out wasn't a great move.

Biden could have sucked every dick in Berlin for a year and still not repair the damage. Also, the Nordic Stream 2, one of the main drivers behind Germany's reluctance to face Russia, was a done deal by the time Biden took office.

Trump actively created dissention in NATO's ranks (remember how he mocked NATO and withheld military funding from Ukraine?), alienated our European allies, and allowed Russian ambitions to go unchecked. This is the result of weakening alliances and strengthening adversaries.

It takes longer to build and fix than to destroy. It is perfectly reasonable to assign blame where it belongs.

Is it your position that the US must intervene militarily for Biden to 'stand up' to Putin?
I don't think it is a good stance to stand by while enemies even shadow enemies are looking to gain more power.

The problem lies with NATO. If they aren't about fighting I don't think we have much of a leg to stand on. I think if we let Ukraine get invaded Taiwan is probably next.

That being said US usually leads from the front. If Biden had some ballz and said not on my watch I don't care what the other guy did I don't think we would be in this current situation.

I'm pretty sure that threating only sanctions has pretty much green lighted the invasion.

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#38

Post by aurelius » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:56 pm

zappey1 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:25 pmI don't think it is a good stance to stand by while enemies even shadow enemies are looking to gain more power.
I made the case for military intervention in previous posts. But the US no longer has the political wherewithal to do it alone (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq 1, Afghanistan, Iraq 2). Something I previously stated: W. Bush really fucked the US up with Iraq 2. And Russia, which has the nuclear arsenal of a superpower, is not Iraq.
zappey1 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:25 pmThe problem lies with NATO. If they aren't about fighting I don't think we have much of a leg to stand on. I think if we let Ukraine get invaded Taiwan is probably next.
The US is the largest player in NATO. And for 4 years we denigrated our allies, threatened to pull out, and weakened our alliances. As a result of the US appearing as an unreliable ally, NATO members began to look at other options like strengthening their ties to Russia.
zappey1 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:25 pmThat being said US usually leads from the front. If Biden had some ballz and said not on my watch I don't care what the other guy did I don't think we would be in this current situation.
See above comment regarding Iraq 2. The US does not have the wherewithal to go it alone. Hell, Tucker Carlson the main conservative propagandist has become a Russian sympathizer. If you can't get the conservatives in the US to support military action, you aren't going to put troops on the ground.
zappey1 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:25 pmI'm pretty sure that threating only sanctions has pretty much green lighted the invasion.
Obama had implemented effective sanctions against Russia that Trump relaxed the moment he got in office. Russia has since spent the last 4 plus years building a $600 billion war chest to survive sanctions. Foreign policy matters.

Also targeted action against Russian companies abroad. Look into SWIFT. Which is controlled by the West. That could be a hurt on Russia.

After more reading: the best thing the US can do to counter Russian aggression is provide an energy source for NATO members other than Russian gas.

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#39

Post by zappey1 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:05 pm

aurelius wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:56 pm

Obama had implemented effective sanctions against Russia that Trump relaxed the moment he got in office. Russia has since spent the last 4 plus years building a $600 billion war chest to survive sanctions. Foreign policy matters.

Also targeted action against Russian companies abroad. Look into SWIFT. Which is controlled by the West. That could be a hurt on Russia.

After more reading: the best thing the US can do to counter Russian aggression is provide an energy source for NATO members other than Russian gas.
So how long do you think the current leader can blame the old one? 2 years? 3,4?

At some point Sleepy Joe has to step up and has to lead/ inspire. Judging by his poll numbers and track record he has not been doing a great job of either. You cant lead by blaming the guy before you. Sorry that is not how leadership works.

I would like to think DT would have stood up to Putin better but who knows.

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Re: The Russia vs Ukraine show

#40

Post by aurelius » Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:40 pm

zappey1 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:05 pm
aurelius wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:56 pm

Obama had implemented effective sanctions against Russia that Trump relaxed the moment he got in office. Russia has since spent the last 4 plus years building a $600 billion war chest to survive sanctions. Foreign policy matters.

Also targeted action against Russian companies abroad. Look into SWIFT. Which is controlled by the West. That could be a hurt on Russia.

After more reading: the best thing the US can do to counter Russian aggression is provide an energy source for NATO members other than Russian gas.
So how long do you think the current leader can blame the old one? 2 years? 3,4?

At some point Sleepy Joe has to step up and has to lead/ inspire. Judging by his poll numbers and track record he has not been doing a great job of either. You cant lead by blaming the guy before you. Sorry that is not how leadership works.

I would like to think DT would have stood up to Putin better but who knows.
Dude. You just don’t get it. Your complete failure to actually respond to the content of the article is your first clue you are just supporting your home team. “Stop blaming trump”. The article is discussing specific policies and consequences. That is not blaming. That is accountability.

Trumps foreign policy will have consequences for more than a decade. That is fact. Gutting the State department was reckless, short sighted, and done to appease mouth breathers. To give some context in case you have trump blinders, every President after W Bush was hand tied by his first term decisions to start two long term wars of occupation.

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