The Russia vs Ukraine show

[KyleSchuant]

[It's called imminent domain and people are reimbursed market value.

Eminent.

The Somalis were reimbursed sweet fuck all for their fish. We can presume the governments and corporations involved felt that those fish had more than sweet fuck all value, since they took the trouble to send ships to go and get them.

From their response to the Somalis grabbing foreign fishing ships, and later other cargo ships, we can take it that they felt differently about the ships they'd sent.

Thus: Governments and corporations were allowed to steal. People weren't.

[aurelius]

[It's called imminent domain and people are reimbursed market value.

Eminent.

The Somalis were reimbursed sweet fuck all for their fish. We can presume the governments and corporations involved felt that those fish had more than sweet fuck all value, since they took the trouble to send ships to go and get them.

From their response to the Somalis grabbing foreign fishing ships, and later other cargo ships, we can take it that they felt differently about the ships they'd sent.

Thus: Governments and corporations were allowed to steal. People weren't.

You are correct. I always mix that up in my mind.

I was referring to how the State justifies taking private property from its citizens. In reference to Stares are allowed to steal. I was being snarky. For every necessary case of its use there are half a dozen sketchy (at best) cases.

[DCR]

Let’s not even get started on civil forfeiture.

[Philbert]

[It's called imminent domain and people are reimbursed market value.

Eminent.

You are correct. I always mix that up in my mind.

My personal mnemonic for this: Imminent is related to immediate, both spelled with an i. Eminent is related to elevation (government is above you, so it takes your stuff) and governments seeing themselves as the kings of modern times (His Eminence requires your land).

[mikeylikey]

You say pirates and I say Somalis. Radios don't grow on trees Mikey! I will never let that go. I'm petty like that. 100% an example of US intervention for the purpose of trade (for those keeping score).

What actually happened there was that after a few years of Somalia having no government outside Mogadishu, EU and Japanese fishing vessels came in and start drift-net fishing the fuck out of everything in Somali waters. This left a bunch of Somali fishermen without fish to catch, but with spare boats. Their reasoning was, "Well, they stole from us, so we'll steal from them."

So if the USN really wanted to ensure free trade, they could board, seize and burn down to the waterline some EU/Japanese fishing vessels. It'd only take 2-3 to make the rest fuck off.

Of course, that's not the way the world works. Countries don't have principles, they have interests. And it's not in the USA's interests to piss off the EU and Japan over some fish, certainly not for the sake of Somalis. Of course, then some of those Somalis go and join Islamic radical groups, too, who eventually create some terrorists, who... but modern governments don't think that far ahead.

It's almost like the real world defies putting people into little boxes of They Bad, We good, muh freedom!

[aurelius]

Let’s not even get started on civil forfeiture.

At least with eminent domain there is a public due process. I have zero idea how civil forfeiture is legal.

[DCR]

Let’s not even get started on civil forfeiture.

At least with eminent domain there is a public due process. I have zero idea how civil forfeiture is legal.

Nor I. There seemed to be a big public outcry about it, for ten minutes, two or three years back, and then the media got distracted by shinier objects.

I also think there's a bit of, "They wouldn't have been pulled over / had that cash on them if they weren't doing anything wrong," combined with, "That would never happen to me," sentiment that keeps folks from rising up over it.

[ChasingCurls69]

Let’s not even get started on civil forfeiture.

At least with eminent domain there is a public due process. I have zero idea how civil forfeiture is legal.

Nor I. There seemed to be a big public outcry about it, for ten minutes, two or three years back, and then the media got distracted by shinier objects.

I also think there's a bit of, "They wouldn't have been pulled over / had that cash on them if they weren't doing anything wrong," combined with, "That would never happen to me," sentiment that keeps folks from rising up over it.

I think this is a lot of what keeps society in general shitty. Most people don't give a shit unless it personally involves them, and they actively want to see harsh punishments.

[mikeylikey]

Let’s not even get started on civil forfeiture.

At least with eminent domain there is a public due process. I have zero idea how civil forfeiture is legal.

I had 5 acres taken smack across the center of my property for a high tension power line project in 2021. There was nothing "due" or "public" about the process. The utility company (a for-profit, publicly-traded, private sector corporation) simply prepared an exhibit for a judge saying "we would like this person's land and they don'wanna sell it." And that was it. And yes I had a lawyer. 3 of them. Fired the first two because they wouldn't fight it, despite me saying take my money and fight this thing. When the third one wouldn't either, I realized you don't really own anything.

Meanwhile, neighbor was paid $423k for some land and a barn that would have appraised for about $145,000 based on comparable sales, which ultimately became the starting point for the project that went through my land. He somehow got his deal before any public disclosure was made. Then once they had their anchor point, the eminent-domain-ed the rest of us.

Yes I got paid. Fair market value is also bullshit. There is no such thing as "fair value" when there is a gun to your head. I can honestly tell you that had this been a voluntary situation where I had the right to say no, it would have taken 3x the ultimate settlement to get me to even consider it. Absolutely wrecked a very picturesque property I bought to raise a family, grow old and die on. Fuck eminent domain right to death.

[mbasic]

Let’s not even get started on civil forfeiture.

At least with eminent domain there is a public due process. I have zero idea how civil forfeiture is legal.

I had 5 acres taken smack across the center of my property for a high tension power line project in 2021. There was nothing "due" or "public" about the process. The utility company (a for-profit, publicly-traded, private sector corporation) simply prepared an exhibit for a judge saying "we would like this person's land and they don'wanna sell it." And that was it. And yes I had a lawyer. 3 of them. Fired the first two because they wouldn't fight it, despite me saying take my money and fight this thing. When the third one wouldn't either, I realized you don't really own anything.

Meanwhile, neighbor was paid $423k for some land and a barn that would have appraised for about $145,000 based on comparable sales, which ultimately became the starting point for the project that went through my land. He somehow got his deal before any public disclosure was made. Then once they had their anchor point, the eminent-domain-ed the rest of us.

Yes I got paid. Fair market value is also bullshit. There is no such thing as "fair value" when there is a gun to your head. I can honestly tell you that had this been a voluntary situation where I had the right to say no, it would have taken 3x the ultimate settlement to get me to even consider it. Absolutely wrecked a very picturesque property I bought to raise a family, grow old and die on. Fuck eminent domain right to death.

lol

Central Arizona Project Canal (CAP) cut through our property, cut off a huge triangle..... there would be no access to the triangle that was formerly our land. The gov't would only comp us ("fair market value") for the property the canal easement occupied, and gave us MUCH LESS for the triangle piece ....because....get this: It would be worth less because its landlocked/property locked from the canal (and blocked by other properties, and a future easement a freeway). They said the corner property would be worthless; but they made it worthless. WTF! I couldn't quite follow the whole thing as I was really young at this time. Also, the drainage patterns they had altered in the process of constructing the canal dumped a lot of water onto that corner also, but that really wasn't how it was engineered to work. We had to also hire some civil engineers along with the lawyers.

My father had quickly cobbled a plan (permits, construction, etc) to put together a billboard to advertise to the freeway....to show SOME income, etc. It got stick because it seemed that the DOT and the CAP were in cahoots with one another trying to block our billboard permits.

This went on for about 5-6 years. We finally got a little more money per acre, but I don't know if it was worth all the legal bills and stress.

That canal has totally fucked us. The two adjoining cities have grown quite a bit.
The canal pretty much landlocked out of any utility hook ups decades later (we only have power and phone here ....via overhead/poles)

[mbasic]

Meanwhile, neighbor was paid $423k for some land and a barn that would have appraised for about $145,000 based on comparable sales, which ultimately became the starting point for the project that went through my land. He somehow got his deal before any public disclosure was made. Then once they had their anchor point, the eminent-domain-ed the rest of us.

Yes I got paid. Fair market value ...

Doesn't that $432K work against the powercompany/state though .... they just inflated the real-estate/valuations comps for the area.

Lol, our land was all zonedheavy industrial, but in the middle of nowhere at the time ...BUT very rare in this area.
They tried to comp our property to other vacant-desert-general-rural-zoned shit.

[mikeylikey]

Doesn't that $432K work against the powercompany/state though .... they just inflated the real-estate/valuations comps for the area.

A) They sat on it for a year before the moved on the other landowners, so the sale was too old to be a valid comp,

more importantly,

B) Case law in this state says that, i shit you not, sales made voluntarily to a utility are not admissible in determining the value of other land the utility wants. Sales made under threat of condemnation, are.

[aurelius]

I had 5 acres taken smack across the center of my property for a high tension power line project in 2021. There was nothing "due" or "public" about the process. The utility company (a for-profit, publicly-traded, private sector corporation) simply prepared an exhibit for a judge saying "we would like this person's land and they don'wanna sell it." And that was it. And yes I had a lawyer. 3 of them. Fired the first two because they wouldn't fight it, despite me saying take my money and fight this thing. When the third one wouldn't either, I realized you don't really own anything.

Meanwhile, neighbor was paid $423k for some land and a barn that would have appraised for about $145,000 based on comparable sales, which ultimately became the starting point for the project that went through my land. He somehow got his deal before any public disclosure was made. Then once they had their anchor point, the eminent-domain-ed the rest of us.

Yes I got paid. Fair market value is also bullshit. There is no such thing as "fair value" when there is a gun to your head. I can honestly tell you that had this been a voluntary situation where I had the right to say no, it would have taken 3x the ultimate settlement to get me to even consider it. Absolutely wrecked a very picturesque property I bought to raise a family, grow old and die on. Fuck eminent domain right to death.

Your case is 100% the bullshit cases I was referring to and what is wrong with its allowed use. Utilities, essentially private organizations, are granted broad powers by the State. Even more so than cities. Their abuse of eminent domain is excessive. The courts should hold them more accountable but they offer up such compelling arguments such as, "It would cost $1 more to do anything else. Also, we have not looked at any other alternatives but fuck this guy." and the courts (often limited by the terribly written statuates) just rubber stamp it. It is bullshit and you got fucked. Seen it with power, railroads, and O&G.

Your case is like the airlines forcibly removing people from the plane when they simply had to offer more money. "Well we offered a coupon to TGIF, what else can we do? Marshall, please taze and remove 5 random passengers."

On the flip side, essentially all development would be impossible without the threat of eminent domain. So there's that. I don't know how many conversations I have had with adjacent property owners to a development I am engineering who essentially state some version of I won't allow that. In practice eminent domain is ever used. But the threat of it makes people more reasonable. Kind of like Fights to the Death were super rare. Because the threat of it incentivized people to resolve disputes.

The Keystone pipeline was even worse. Eminent domain was being used so that a Canadian company could pipe oil to the Gulf of Mexico where it would be shipped overseas. How was that a public necessity?

[aurelius]

@mbasic and @mikeylikey To get max value for the land you have to plat it. I've done a few plats whose sole purpose was to drive up the land value when the landowner was faced with upstream development that would impact their property. Not common knowledge and you have to have some awareness of the various development activities going on around you because it takes time (< year) and money to put together a plat.

[mikeylikey]

In practice eminent domain is ever used. But the threat of it makes people more reasonable. Kind of like Fights to the Death were super rare. Because the threat of it incentivized people to resolve disputes.

Yeah well, the Mafia rarely whacks people, the threat is enough to get most to cooperate voluntarily.

[GlasgowJock]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733

Completely shocked I tell you, shocked!!1

[quikky]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733

Completely shocked I tell you, shocked!!1

[Hiphopapotamus]

I think they sacked Surovikin from his last remaining command (the Space Force) in just the past day or so. I guess it's payback time.

[mikeylikey]

[BostonRugger]

Hot dog vendor flew too close to the sun.