Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

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asdf
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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#21

Post by asdf » Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:46 pm

Hardartery wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:45 am squat depth is the decider for hamstring iand glute nvolvement on squats not bar position.
Try front squatting vs. low-bar squatting with a pulled hamstring and get back to me.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#22

Post by quikky » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:53 pm

asdf wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:46 pm
Hardartery wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:45 am squat depth is the decider for hamstring iand glute nvolvement on squats not bar position.
Try front squatting vs. low-bar squatting with a pulled hamstring and get back to me.
Yeah, I think the hip angle is really the key factor, and squat style tends to determine what this angle is going to be. From most to least flexed: low bar > high bar > SSB > front squat. The inverse is true for knee angle. Now, you can technically force different squat mechanics regardless of bar position, i.e. try to squat low bar style with high bar or even SSB, but generally speaking it's going to be the case that bar position will change your hip angle and thus your glute and hamstring involvement.

The other part is also adductor involvement. Hip angle determines that as well, plus toe angle. Low bar tends to be most adductor-y.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#23

Post by Hardartery » Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:08 pm

asdf wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:46 pm
Hardartery wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:45 am squat depth is the decider for hamstring iand glute nvolvement on squats not bar position.
Try front squatting vs. low-bar squatting with a pulled hamstring and get back to me.
I have squatted with a pulled hamstring. Front vs Low Bar = no difference. Narrow stance vs wide stance, two different animals. Sinking the saquat versus only hitting parallel, also different animals. If you sink your front squat and/because of narrower stance relative to Low Bar, then they feel different. I do not notice greater hamstring involvement on Front Squats at all, and at this point in my life the problem is shoulder flexibility more than anything on performing Front Squats. Unless I use that Bodybuilder crossed arm positioning.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#24

Post by Renascent » Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:38 pm

alek wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:41 am
KOTJ wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:33 am
alek wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:33 am
KOTJ wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:17 am Do you have a bar preference for GMs? I can convince myself I need an SSB...
I've done GMs with only the SSB, and it's real nice.
What SSB are you using? Don't say Elitefts
Only the best for the local YMCA using 20+ year old strength equipment--Titan Fitness SSB.

It actually does work well, and it weighs 60 or 61 pounds I think; so the plate math isn't too bad.
This might be an odd question, but is it possible to accommodate both a high-bar and low-bar setup for Good Mornings using the SSB?

For the life of me, I can't ever get set properly for a low-bar GM using a standard barbell. Feels weird as fuck.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#25

Post by asdf » Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:07 pm

Hardartery wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:08 pm I do not notice greater hamstring involvement on Front Squats at all
Neither do I, which was my point. Front squatting = zero hamstring involvement.

Neither my stance nor my depth change when I move from front squat to high-bar (narrowish stance, ass-to-grass). And yet, because of the change in hip and knee angles, I cannot high-bar with a pulled hamstring. And low-bar -- especially a Rippetoe version with wider stance and more forward lean -- would be totally out of the question.

I guess we're just different.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#26

Post by AlanMackey » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:13 pm

Hardartery wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:08 pm
asdf wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:46 pm
Hardartery wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:45 am squat depth is the decider for hamstring iand glute nvolvement on squats not bar position.
Try front squatting vs. low-bar squatting with a pulled hamstring and get back to me.
I have squatted with a pulled hamstring. Front vs Low Bar = no difference. Narrow stance vs wide stance, two different animals. Sinking the saquat versus only hitting parallel, also different animals. If you sink your front squat and/because of narrower stance relative to Low Bar, then they feel different. I do not notice greater hamstring involvement on Front Squats at all, and at this point in my life the problem is shoulder flexibility more than anything on performing Front Squats. Unless I use that Bodybuilder crossed arm positioning.
Are you against straps? They are truly wonderful.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#27

Post by hector » Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:14 am

KOTJ wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:32 am I just want to kill my legs and leg curl pumps are fun.

Bro science reasoning for lower back: the hamstrings are in the back of the legs. The back is also behind the front of the legs, and behind the front of the abs. By strengthening the lowest back muscles (hamstrings), the fullest back aka the absolute back will increase HP by at least 137.

Have a promaxima raptor leg extension/curl on order.
There are only so many things someone can say that cause me to immediately, involuntarily think "Baller." This is one of them.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#28

Post by hector » Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:19 am

KOTJ wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:17 am
Renascent wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:09 am
KOTJ wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:51 am now who wants to share their favorite hamstring work that isnt a squat or deadlift/pull?
I've a strong preference for most of the knee-flexion-based hamstring work, but if you're gonna also do hip-extension-based stuff, I'm fond of Good Mornings when I can't be assed with more pulling. The stretch feels awesome.

I'm still learning to stop the eccentric once I can't push my hips back any further. I end up shifting the load to the lower back (QL and obliques?) if I get too preoccupied with "depth."
I was thinking about trying good mornings. Pulls are just sumo and sumo dimels (not assplosif) and sometimes trap bar RDLs but I haven't ruled that out from back flare ups contributions.

Do you have a bar preference for GMs? I can convince myself I need an SSB...
I greatly prefer Good Mornings with a SSB bar. Not sure they're better, but the challenge is different.

Also, since I'm not a PL or OL and so give zero fucks about high bar or law bar, I like squatting with the SSB bar much more as well.

I'd recommend getting one. I see them used on CL regularly.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#29

Post by KOTJ » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:53 am

hector wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:14 am
KOTJ wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:32 am I just want to kill my legs and leg curl pumps are fun.

Bro science reasoning for lower back: the hamstrings are in the back of the legs. The back is also behind the front of the legs, and behind the front of the abs. By strengthening the lowest back muscles (hamstrings), the fullest back aka the absolute back will increase HP by at least 137.

Have a promaxima raptor leg extension/curl on order.
There are only so many things someone can say that cause me to immediately, involuntarily think "Baller." This is one of them.
Baller status denied

Craigslist is complete crap within 200 miles. This was the best deal on a commercial unit, after weeks of searching. Decided to get something we'll never need to upgrade. Needed good adjustability to fit 2+ different users. I've wanted a good extension/curl for about 6 years but didn't have space.

$2600 + tax on HD Supply solutions. Shipping was free

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#30

Post by Renascent » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:15 am

KOTJ wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:53 am
hector wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:14 am
KOTJ wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:32 am I just want to kill my legs and leg curl pumps are fun.

Bro science reasoning for lower back: the hamstrings are in the back of the legs. The back is also behind the front of the legs, and behind the front of the abs. By strengthening the lowest back muscles (hamstrings), the fullest back aka the absolute back will increase HP by at least 137.

Have a promaxima raptor leg extension/curl on order.
There are only so many things someone can say that cause me to immediately, involuntarily think "Baller." This is one of them.
Baller status denied

Craigslist is complete crap within 200 miles. This was the best deal on a commercial unit, after weeks of searching. Decided to get something we'll never need to upgrade. Needed good adjustability to fit 2+ different users. I've wanted a good extension/curl for about 6 years but didn't have space.

$2600 + tax on HD Supply solutions. Shipping was free
This was not the answer I was expecting.

I've had an HD Supply account for years, but the only thing I can remember buying was a bunch of deliberately cheap window blinds for a temporary (but ongoing) setup.

I had no idea they also sold leg curl/extension machines!

Have fun, my dude!

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#31

Post by Hardartery » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:33 am

asdf wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:07 pm
Hardartery wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:08 pm I do not notice greater hamstring involvement on Front Squats at all
Neither do I, which was my point. Front squatting = zero hamstring involvement.

Neither my stance nor my depth change when I move from front squat to high-bar (narrowish stance, ass-to-grass). And yet, because of the change in hip and knee angles, I cannot high-bar with a pulled hamstring. And low-bar -- especially a Rippetoe version with wider stance and more forward lean -- would be totally out of the question.

I guess we're just different.
Front Squats certainly involve Hamstrings, but they don't involve more or less of them than any other saquat with the same stance. And Rippetoe like to take credit for things t=but there is no Rippetoe version, he didn't invent that stance or suggest it before other people - it's a common Pl stance taken extreme by Westside BB. Dicketoe is just regurgitating mindlessly. Move your feet in and you will hit lower depth and greater hamstring and glute involvement. Glutes pull you out of the bottom and hamstrings push you to parallel where quads start to kick in. You groin muscles will play a part, depending on the individual. I am a groin dominant squatter, so I don't tend to notice the hamstrings where a hamstring dominant squatter would which is above the hole but below parallel. You could be more reliant on the groin muscles, or maybe you don't sink your squats. There is no prize in PL for sinking them (Unless you have some lunatic judge enforcing a non-existent depth standard) but outside of that it can be beneficial in the long term to be in the habit of hitting mechanical bottom.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#32

Post by Hardartery » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:40 am

AlanMackey wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:13 pm
Hardartery wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:08 pm
asdf wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:46 pm
Hardartery wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:45 am squat depth is the decider for hamstring iand glute nvolvement on squats not bar position.
Try front squatting vs. low-bar squatting with a pulled hamstring and get back to me.
I have squatted with a pulled hamstring. Front vs Low Bar = no difference. Narrow stance vs wide stance, two different animals. Sinking the saquat versus only hitting parallel, also different animals. If you sink your front squat and/because of narrower stance relative to Low Bar, then they feel different. I do not notice greater hamstring involvement on Front Squats at all, and at this point in my life the problem is shoulder flexibility more than anything on performing Front Squats. Unless I use that Bodybuilder crossed arm positioning.
Are you against straps? They are truly wonderful.
I am not against much of anything in particular. I am against reliance on something or pretending that it does something that it does not. Straps certainly have their place, I use them, I should have made more use of them when I was younger and competing. They are great for permitting overload that exceeds the grip, and for letting you do work without overtraining the grip. I wouldn't use them all of the time, because that is just using them to my detriment if I rely on them. I should be able to hold onto a bar without them, the same as I should be able to squat or deadlift at least the warmup weight without a belt. Nothing wrong with either item, but I shouldn't have to have anything all of the time.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#33

Post by James » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:46 am

He means using straps to front squat instead of the cross grip or racking the bar with fingertips.

I've never been able to get the hang of it. I want to try the front squat handles Mike T printed those look neat.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#34

Post by mbasic » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:49 am

Hardartery wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:08 pm
asdf wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:46 pm
Hardartery wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:45 am squat depth is the decider for hamstring iand glute nvolvement on squats not bar position.
Try front squatting vs. low-bar squatting with a pulled hamstring and get back to me.
I have squatted with a pulled hamstring. Front vs Low Bar = no difference. Narrow stance vs wide stance, two different animals. Sinking the saquat versus only hitting parallel, also different animals. If you sink your front squat and/because of narrower stance relative to Low Bar, then they feel different. I do not notice greater hamstring involvement on Front Squats at all, and at this point in my life the problem is shoulder flexibility more than anything on performing Front Squats. Unless I use that Bodybuilder crossed arm positioning.
I would imagine all this might vary with:

which "hamstring" muscle a person tore,

And

What their front squat looks like compared to their backsquat.
A neat trim guy with thin legs and upright front squat posture and knees going forward is going to have a whole different level of hamstring involvement than a bigger girthier guy ... or someone who doesn't have real pretty front squat form. For many, its about the same (HBS & FSQT)

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#35

Post by Hardartery » Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:03 am

James wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:46 am He means using straps to front squat instead of the cross grip or racking the bar with fingertips.

I've never been able to get the hang of it. I want to try the front squat handles Mike T printed those look neat.
Never tried them, but if it works for someone....
I think that the ability to achieve a front rack position is actually very useful. The shoulder flexibility carries over to everyday life and makes things easier, IMO. I have two bone spurs in my left shoulder and it screws up a lot of stuff. Doing the work to restore flexibility isn't just about me being able to OHP more comfortably, it makes it easier to wipe my butt when I'm sitting on the toilet. So, whatever works, but reliance is bad. IMO.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#36

Post by broseph » Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:29 am

James wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:46 am He means using straps to front squat instead of the cross grip or racking the bar with fingertips.
My brachioradialis cramps HARD when I use straps for fronties. I’m not even sure why.

Don’t want to derail KOTJ’s fat hammies thread- Nordic hamstring curls and RDL’s were my go-to home-gym ham-builders.

Also, my hamstrings are always the sorest part after regular low bar squats. All my leg meat is in the lower ass. Like a gazelle. Also my calves match the gazelle build.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#37

Post by asdf » Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:44 am

Hardartery wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:33 am Front Squats certainly involve Hamstrings, but they don't involve more or less of them than any other saquat with the same stance.
I believe this wrong, at least regarding most people. But as @quikky and @mbasic noted, it will depend on one's squat mechanics. If you shoot your hips back on a front squat, then yeah.
Hardartery wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:33 am And Rippetoe like to take credit for things t=but there is no Rippetoe version, he didn't invent that stance or suggest it before other people - it's a common Pl stance taken extreme by Westside BB.
"Rippetoe version" just means the style he advocates. As distinguished from low-bar squats using high-bar mechanics. Not talking about who invented what or who is or isn't trying to take credit.

I don't follow powerlifting, but from what I've seen, Westside squats are nothing like Rippetoe's version. Have you read the squat chapter in Starting Strength?


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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#38

Post by Hardartery » Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:54 am

asdf wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:44 am
Hardartery wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:33 am Front Squats certainly involve Hamstrings, but they don't involve more or less of them than any other saquat with the same stance.
I believe this wrong, at least regarding most people. But as @quikky and @mbasic noted, it will depend on one's squat mechanics. If you shoot your hips back on a front squat, then yeah.
Hardartery wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:33 am And Rippetoe like to take credit for things t=but there is no Rippetoe version, he didn't invent that stance or suggest it before other people - it's a common Pl stance taken extreme by Westside BB.
"Rippetoe version" just means the style he advocates. As distinguished from low-bar squats using high-bar mechanics. Not talking about who invented what or who is or isn't trying to take credit.

I don't follow powerlifting, but from what I've seen, Westside squats are nothing like Rippetoe's version. Have you read the squat chapter in Starting Strength?

I am just objecting to adding an iota to Rippetoes' notoriety or impact, I refuse to qualify anything as being in his "Style", unless I can make fun of him with it like calling a guy sqautting on a Sissel ball "Rippetoe version". Anything useful or correct that he has written or said was ripped off directly from Bill Starr as far as I can tell, and no I have not read any portion of any book from him. Nor will I. I can spot a dumbass without reading his book. I have no intention of reading Mein Kampf either.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#39

Post by hector » Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:05 am

KOTJ wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:53 am
hector wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:14 am
KOTJ wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:32 am I just want to kill my legs and leg curl pumps are fun.

Bro science reasoning for lower back: the hamstrings are in the back of the legs. The back is also behind the front of the legs, and behind the front of the abs. By strengthening the lowest back muscles (hamstrings), the fullest back aka the absolute back will increase HP by at least 137.

Have a promaxima raptor leg extension/curl on order.
There are only so many things someone can say that cause me to immediately, involuntarily think "Baller." This is one of them.
Baller status denied

Craigslist is complete crap within 200 miles. This was the best deal on a commercial unit, after weeks of searching. Decided to get something we'll never need to upgrade. Needed good adjustability to fit 2+ different users. I've wanted a good extension/curl for about 6 years but didn't have space.

$2600 + tax on HD Supply solutions. Shipping was free
If you know it's what you want and you have the $$$ then I think you made the right move.
Dealing with CL sellers can be a pain, sometimes they're shady.

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Re: Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

#40

Post by asdf » Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:16 am

Hardartery wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:54 am Anything useful or correct that he has written or said was ripped off directly from Bill Starr as far as I can tell, and no I have not read any portion of any book from him.
You haven't read any portion of any book Rippetoe's written, but you're sure that his version of the squat is akin to Westside's?

Anything useful or correct that Rippetoe has written was ripped off directly from Bill Starr -- you believe that -- but you haven't read any portion of any of Rippetoe's books?

In case you find this useful... I've read both of Starr's books many times, and both of Rippetoe's main books many times. There's very little overlap. And where Rippetoe is in fact drawing on Starr, he makes that clear. For example, Practical Programming contains a section called the "The Starr Model," which covers the HLM method of weekly periodization and how to progress to a six-day HHMHHL.

Disclosure: I do not use, teach, coach, or agree with Rippetoe's low-bar method. I front- and high-bar squat, Olympic-style.

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