Hamstrings. Commonly believed to be back of the leg muscles

[Hardartery]

Anything useful or correct that he has written or said was ripped off directly from Bill Starr as far as I can tell, and no I have not read any portion of any book from him.

You haven't read any portion of any book Rippetoe's written, but you're sure that his version of the squat is akin to Westside's?

Anything useful or correct that Rippetoe has written was ripped off directly from Bill Starr -- you know that -- but you haven't read any portion of any of Rippetoe's books?

In case you find this useful... I've read both of Starr's books many times, and both of Rippetoe's main books many times. There's very little overlap. And where Rippetoe is in fact drawing on Starr, he makes that clear. For example, Practical Programming contains a section called the "The Starr Model," which covers the HLM method of weekly periodization and how to progress to a six-day HHMHHL.

Disclosure: I do not use, teach, coach, or agree with Rippetoe's low-bar method. I front- and high-bar squat, Olympic-style.

There is where the issues start, I said the the style described is common for PL, and that Westside was the extreme version. I was directly responding to the description as written HERE and not as it may appear in anyone's book. I don't have to be particularly familiar with Rip's books to know that what is espoused is from Bill Starr originally. I just need some familiarity with Starr and to listen to Rip's "Followers" talk about things. He took a valid thing and warped it gradually over time to be the goofy show that now exists. I don't have to study counterfeit money to be able to spot it, I need to study the real thing to be able to spot fakes. In the same vein I have no need to pay any attention to Rip directly, I can tell from a distance it's fake and not waste my time on it.
I get that many of you guys are relatively young and may have been motivated by something from Rip. Great. I was grew up using the vinyl covered concrete weights and crappy bench from Sears, I don't spen my time lamenting it or feel obliged to continue using it. You shouldn't avoid Low Bar just because Rip is in favour of it, that's as stupid as doing becasue Rip is in favour of it. Use the myriad tools available these days to figure out the best bar position for YOU, and also be ready to use other ones if they contribute to your advancement. Personally, I think High Bar is stupid as an ideology and Front Squats have very limited value outside of Olympic style Weightlifting. It's essentially a worthless movement for Strongman, and that goes double in the context of Stones, so I can't be buggered to bother doing the movement most of the time. I can get over 400 lbs on it quite quickly if I feel like it, and it contributes nothing to my life or pursuits. It's just another fad that will ebb and flow over the years. Worrying about someone else's model is beginner lifter stuff, do what works for you without regard for whether or not it works for somebody else and never stop expeimenting with stuff. If you want to continue trying to get off into the weeds to bullshit argument like you typically present, have at it.

[asdf]

^confused, rambling mess

[James]

Between that post and trap bar stuff are you sure you haven't read any Rippetoe?

[Renascent]

Anyone had any success using back extensions for hamstring hypertrophy?

[dw]

Anyone had any success using back extensions for hamstring hypertrophy?

I have some experience with both back extensions and reverse hypers and to me neither seemed to stress the hamstrings that much.

When I first started back extensions they hit my spinal erectors hard, but after maybe two months they no longer cause any DOMs or even pump there. I felt it mostly in the glutes (also grip and forearms because i do them with heavy dbs).

I switched to reverse hypers about a month ago because loading back extensions was becoming a hassle. They give me a lower back pump but not next day DOMs. I feel them more in my hs and less in my glutes than back extensions, but primarily in my back.


tl;dr neither seems to stress my hamstrings much.

[Hardartery]

Between that post and trap bar stuff are you sure you haven't read any Rippetoe?

What, specifically, are you getting at? I don't have any use personally for a Trap Bar, but I have not told anyone else to not use one. I don't find them useful, so I say so. Maybe it's just me, but I doubt it. If they work for someone else, then they should absolutely use one. Same with Front Squats. I know that they are fashionable right now, but they aren't doing much that translates to useful benefit for most lifters. And I am personally annoyed by a few internet coaches insisting on them as some sort of staple for Strongman training and lifting stones. They are valueless for improving your Stones, Hip Thrusts would be more useful for that than Front Squats. I'm not insisting on anyone following my advice, just offering my experience for consideration the same as some others.

[quikky]

Anyone had any success using back extensions for hamstring hypertrophy?

I've seen some people set up in a way that essentially mimics a good morning. Basically, their legs are perpendicular to the ground, and they go from standing straight up, to the torso perpendicular to the legs. One way I've seen this done is with the bar in a rack placed at the hips, and the feet being held back by something like dumbbells. I think the main idea here, vs. the more common 45-degree-ish back extension is that the resistance is maximal at the peak stretch of the hamstrings, vs at a shortened length in a 45 degree type of set up.

[augeleven]

Anyone had any success using back extensions for hamstring hypertrophy?

Last week did weighted back extensions ( with a wider deadlift style like below)
3 sets of 6 at RPE 7-8ish, then an amrap set of 30 bodyweight back extensions and had immediate DOMS hamster pain that lasted for days.

It’s now gonna be a regular deadlift day finisher

[KOTJ]

To claim x lift isn't valuable or effective, without viewing it as it's prescribed for specific programming, is very big top smorts.

Oddly enough, fellas, I was also thinking about adding in back extensions..if I do them weighted, I'd probably use a vest/backpack...but I probably won't do extensions.

[ChasingCurls69]

Anyone had any success using back extensions for hamstring hypertrophy?

I'm not 100% sure if my hammies grew from them, but I liked them as a 3rd "deadlift slot" and they helped my lockout. I also like to use them with people who need moar hamstring volume and are not as tolerant of raw dogging more deadlift or close deadlift variation volume.

[OverheadDeadlifts]

One for the home gym crew: band leg curls. My favourite is doing them lying but can also been done seated and standing. I think an advantage they have over some machines is that you don’t have a pad preventing you from getting really acute knee flexion. Can also do some rapid drop sets with a combo of scooting up and down the bench to change tension and/or hooking both feet into the band to switch from single to double leg when each leg is exhausted.

Also for those who can’t find a comfortable place on the back for good mornings but don’t want to buy a SSB, a plain old barbell pad does a good job as well.

[DCR]

Anyone had any success using back extensions for hamstring hypertrophy?

Last week did weighted back extensions ( with a wider deadlift style like below)
3 sets of 6 at RPE 7-8ish, then an amrap set of 30 bodyweight back extensions and had immediate DOMS hamster pain that lasted for days.

It’s now gonna be a regular deadlift day finisher

Similar to doing these with the wider grip, I’ve been doing SLDLs with a snatch grip, and it’s been a revelation to me.

[dw]

Anyone had any success using back extensions for hamstring hypertrophy?

Last week did weighted back extensions ( with a wider deadlift style like below)
3 sets of 6 at RPE 7-8ish, then an amrap set of 30 bodyweight back extensions and had immediate DOMS hamster pain that lasted for days.

It’s now gonna be a regular deadlift day finisher

I wonder how much weight would be appropriate in this style of back extension? I think I'm going to try it but the weight he was using seemed low (on my phone but I guess it was 45+10+10).

[alek]

Do you have a bar preference for GMs? I can convince myself I need an SSB...

I've done GMs with only the SSB, and it's real nice.

What SSB are you using? Don't say Elitefts

Only the best for the local YMCA using 20+ year old strength equipment--Titan Fitness SSB.

It actually does work well, and it weighs 60 or 61 pounds I think; so the plate math isn't too bad.

This might be an odd question, but is it possible to accommodate both a high-bar and low-bar setup for Good Mornings using the SSB?

For the life of me, I can't ever get set properly for a low-bar GM using a standard barbell. Feels weird as fuck.

Honestly, I don’t know. I’m not sure exactly how to go about trying it either.

The ssb is really comfortable for GMs though. I got the idea from a Brian Alsruhe video I watched years ago. I like just being able to hold the handles right in front and not having to worry about getting a good, tight position with a regular barbell.

I probably wouldn’t do them without the ssb.

[Renascent]

I have some experience with both back extensions and reverse hypers and to me neither seemed to stress the hamstrings that much.

When I first started back extensions they hit my spinal erectors hard, but after maybe two months they no longer cause any DOMs or even pump there. I felt it mostly in the glutes (also grip and forearms because i do them with heavy dbs).

This mostly mirrors my experience. There was a 45° extension station at my old gym, but I didn't give it too many tries. Seemed to hit the lower erectors more than anything, though the glute burn was what I was really chasing.

I've seen some people set up in a way that essentially mimics a good morning. Basically, their legs are perpendicular to the ground, and they go from standing straight up, to the torso perpendicular to the legs. One way I've seen this done is with the bar in a rack placed at the hips, and the feet being held back by something like dumbbells. I think the main idea here, vs. the more common 45-degree-ish back extension is that the resistance is maximal at the peak stretch of the hamstrings, vs at a shortened length in a 45 degree type of set up.

I feel like I've seen this somewhere (maybe it was Testiclaw, in an older thread, who referenced this setup), but I forgot about it. Been wanting to give back extensions another try, but the overlap between them and good mornings was sort of a deterrent, as well as my setup (I tried stacking my bench on some chairs once; I guess it "worked," but felt really precarious). Never considered using dumbbells as bracing for my feet for an upright setup.

Aside from the stretch in comparison to the 45° extension, I'm guessing this configuration also grants more stability than a standing GM...

I'm not 100% sure if my hammies grew from them, but I liked them as a 3rd "deadlift slot" and they helped my lockout.

As a supplemental movement for improving locking out, how do you determine your load percentages?

Last week did weighted back extensions ( with a wider deadlift style like below)

Similar to doing these with the wider grip, I’ve been doing SLDLs with a snatch grip, and it’s been a revelation to me.

SLDLs seem to have given my hammies some width, and very quickly, but I subbed them out about a month ago for RDLs to get more ass involvement.

What's the reasoning behind the wide grip, in ya'll's cases? More upper back involvement or something else?

One for the home gym crew: band leg curls. My favourite is doing them lying but can also been done seated and standing. I think an advantage they have over some machines is that you don’t have a pad preventing you from getting really acute knee flexion.

I underestimated leg curls for a very long time. You just made me realize I should probably drop the weight sometime, though, as knee flexion suffers when I get too ambitious with going heavy for the hell of it.

[DCR]

Last week did weighted back extensions ( with a wider deadlift style like below)

Similar to doing these with the wider grip, I’ve been doing SLDLs with a snatch grip, and it’s been a revelation to me.

SLDLs seem to have given my hammies some width, and very quickly, but I subbed them out about a month ago for RDLs to get more ass involvement.

What's the reasoning behind the wide grip, in ya'll's cases? More upper back involvement or something else?

Much more upper back involvement, which is nice, but in my case two other things. First, for reasons unknown to me, it substantially lessens / nearly eliminates a recurring hip shift problem. Second, I’m too flexible and short (ok just short) to do SLDLs effectively with plates on the bar. Widening the grip cuts the ROM before I otherwise would have put the bar down on the floor.

Regarding leg curls: love them but have to start each rep from a dead step and be certain to initiate and pull solely with my hamstrings and not get any “swing” into it from hips coming up off the pad. If I don’t heed that, knee AIDS city.

[Renascent]

Do you have a bar preference for GMs? I can convince myself I need an SSB...

I've done GMs with only the SSB, and it's real nice.

What SSB are you using? Don't say Elitefts

Only the best for the local YMCA using 20+ year old strength equipment--Titan Fitness SSB.

It actually does work well, and it weighs 60 or 61 pounds I think; so the plate math isn't too bad.

This might be an odd question, but is it possible to accommodate both a high-bar and low-bar setup for Good Mornings using the SSB?

For the life of me, I can't ever get set properly for a low-bar GM using a standard barbell. Feels weird as fuck.

Honestly, I don’t know. I’m not sure exactly how to go about trying it either.

The ssb is really comfortable for GMs though. I got the idea from a Brian Alsruhe video I watched years ago. I like just being able to hold the handles right in front and not having to worry about getting a good, tight position with a regular barbell.

I probably wouldn’t do them without the ssb.

Gotcha. I suppose, based on a few other preceding comments, bar placement is a moot point with an SSB.

[Renascent]

Last week did weighted back extensions ( with a wider deadlift style like below)

Similar to doing these with the wider grip, I’ve been doing SLDLs with a snatch grip, and it’s been a revelation to me.

SLDLs seem to have given my hammies some width, and very quickly, but I subbed them out about a month ago for RDLs to get more ass involvement.

What's the reasoning behind the wide grip, in ya'll's cases? More upper back involvement or something else?

Much more upper back involvement, which is nice, but in my case two other things. First, for reasons unknown to me, it substantially lessens / nearly eliminates a recurring hip shift problem. Second, I’m too flexible and short (ok just short) to do SLDLs effectively with plates on the bar. Widening the grip cuts the ROM before I otherwise would have put the bar down on the floor.

Regarding leg curls: love them but have to start each rep from a dead step and be certain to initiate and pull solely with my hamstrings and not get any “swing” into it from hips coming up off the pad. If I don’t heed that, knee AIDS city.

I deal with the ROM issue often as well for RDLs. Came across an idea somewhere about doing them with my back to a wall, situated in such a way that I touch the wall when I can no longer push my hips backwards. It's meant to keep me from exceeding the hamstrings' ROM to avoid using the lower back.

Haven't actually tried the wall trick, but it's forced me to be more mindful of when movement shifts from the hips to the lumbar area.

As for SLDLs, I like to take them to the floor, i.e., a dead stop. Not sure if that's proper or not, though.

Re: Leg curls... I know some people, if using a machine, will set the pad a certain way that the movement starts short of full knee extension. Supposedly the calves initiate the first few degrees of knee flexion, and too much momentum steals work from the hamstrings -- but don't quote me on that (I can't recall the source).

Anecdotally, my calves have grown ever so slightly with the addition of cable leg curls.

[Hamburgerfan]

now who wants to share their favorite hamstring work that isnt a squat or deadlift/pull?

When I was lifting my two favorites were glute ham raises with a variety of resistance methods and banded leg curls in the style shown in this video:
I liked to do these leg curls for 2-3 high rep sets near failure, with the strongest band I could handle. I let the form get sloppy towards the end of the set and used a lot of momentum. Didn't give a shit.

I found that whenever I stuck to squats/pulls for the majority of my lower body training I ended up being more prone to back pain. A few sets of bodyweight GHRs usually helped relieve it, and the more of them I did the better I felt in general.

My hamstrings are fucking gigantic.

[Renascent]

@Hamburgerfan, I can't remember if I saw it in your log or somewhere else, but weren't you doing a lot of volume with some heavy-ass good mornings for a while?