Mar-a-lago Bebop

[JonA]

I can't get over the fact that they evidently called ahead and asked the staff to properly secure the documents. (Which they did)

There's all sorts of other revelations that, quite frankly, offend me. For example: The federal government seems to allow people to print top secret/classified documents to paper.

It's easier to check out the hard copy of a document like the library and then ddestroy it afterwards than to erase it's footprint on an electronic device. Safer than having it on a tablet in the Oval Office in many ways. Trump is getting caught because he thinks everyone is as sloppy as him. Archivists derive great joy over the OCD tracking of paper, he doesn't seem to get that they DO actually keep a detailed record of every piece of paper and where it is supposed to be.

Another random thought on this...I didn't see that they seized any computer equipment, but just physical documents. Trump could have easily scanned all the info in those documents in the 2 years that he had custody of them if he was planning on leveraging it somehow. It implies that the actual information in the files maybe isn't that important. If the info of those files really was important for nation security, they would have had to confiscate any and everything that might have electronic copies of it as well.

Similarly, for those that think he took the records to hide evidence of crimes that he committed. Doesn't that imply that these documents are original documents without copies? If they were print outs or copies that he had taken with him, all the evidence would already be in available via other copies or the original documents themselves.

On the other hand, if they are indeed unique original documents (of which the DoJ doesn't know the contents), if they contained evidence of crimes that Trump committed, why in the world would he keep them? Especially since there was quite a bit of forewarning that the DoJ wanted those documents.

The idea that these are originals and unique holds no water. The NARA knew what he had because they track it when they make a copy and give it to someone to read, like a library book. So, they knew exactly what he had not returned which makes the fact that he kept pretending to have returned everything even stupider than it would seem. Captain Dunning-Kruger just thinks averyone else is even dumber than he is, reinforced by surrounding himself with idiots.

NARA had the records before they were at Maralago?

They always have them. That's who prints them off and stamps them with classifications. It's not just after the fact, they are involved all the way through. Like this stupid "How do we know they didn't add stuff to the boxes or plant evidence?" nonsense spouted by people like that tool Paul, because they had a list of what was missing before they drove over there that's how.

You don't think the White House has their own classified printers? You think NARA prints out all classified documents on behalf of the White House?

(I think I'm misunderstanding you.)

There is no chance that there are printersdoing that with a connection to the database. Bureaucracy doesn't work that way, and none of the people talking about it in interviews dexscribe it that way. It is clearly described as the department that handles that (NARA in some form) prints and disseminates the documents and they are returned there for disposal or posterity. Everything that left there has to be accounted for. That's why staff had to pick up and reassemble stuff that Trump tore up. They do not play fast and loose with this stuff, that's just Trump ignoring convention for the sake of being a dick and causing extra work and aggravation for everyone around him.

That doesn't account for documents that the White House might be generating and were never turned over to the NARA in the first place, memos, meeting notes, etc.

[Hardartery]

I can't get over the fact that they evidently called ahead and asked the staff to properly secure the documents. (Which they did)

There's all sorts of other revelations that, quite frankly, offend me. For example: The federal government seems to allow people to print top secret/classified documents to paper.

It's easier to check out the hard copy of a document like the library and then ddestroy it afterwards than to erase it's footprint on an electronic device. Safer than having it on a tablet in the Oval Office in many ways. Trump is getting caught because he thinks everyone is as sloppy as him. Archivists derive great joy over the OCD tracking of paper, he doesn't seem to get that they DO actually keep a detailed record of every piece of paper and where it is supposed to be.

Another random thought on this...I didn't see that they seized any computer equipment, but just physical documents. Trump could have easily scanned all the info in those documents in the 2 years that he had custody of them if he was planning on leveraging it somehow. It implies that the actual information in the files maybe isn't that important. If the info of those files really was important for nation security, they would have had to confiscate any and everything that might have electronic copies of it as well.

Similarly, for those that think he took the records to hide evidence of crimes that he committed. Doesn't that imply that these documents are original documents without copies? If they were print outs or copies that he had taken with him, all the evidence would already be in available via other copies or the original documents themselves.

On the other hand, if they are indeed unique original documents (of which the DoJ doesn't know the contents), if they contained evidence of crimes that Trump committed, why in the world would he keep them? Especially since there was quite a bit of forewarning that the DoJ wanted those documents.

The idea that these are originals and unique holds no water. The NARA knew what he had because they track it when they make a copy and give it to someone to read, like a library book. So, they knew exactly what he had not returned which makes the fact that he kept pretending to have returned everything even stupider than it would seem. Captain Dunning-Kruger just thinks averyone else is even dumber than he is, reinforced by surrounding himself with idiots.

NARA had the records before they were at Maralago?

They always have them. That's who prints them off and stamps them with classifications. It's not just after the fact, they are involved all the way through. Like this stupid "How do we know they didn't add stuff to the boxes or plant evidence?" nonsense spouted by people like that tool Paul, because they had a list of what was missing before they drove over there that's how.

You don't think the White House has their own classified printers? You think NARA prints out all classified documents on behalf of the White House?

(I think I'm misunderstanding you.)

There is no chance that there are printersdoing that with a connection to the database. Bureaucracy doesn't work that way, and none of the people talking about it in interviews dexscribe it that way. It is clearly described as the department that handles that (NARA in some form) prints and disseminates the documents and they are returned there for disposal or posterity. Everything that left there has to be accounted for. That's why staff had to pick up and reassemble stuff that Trump tore up. They do not play fast and loose with this stuff, that's just Trump ignoring convention for the sake of being a dick and causing extra work and aggravation for everyone around him.

That doesn't account for documents that the White House might be generating and were never turned over to the NARA in the first place, memos, meeting notes, etc.

It doesn't have to. Most of those aren't necessarily of importance and would exist in multiple places. The only documents that are going to be of import in relation to the subpoena would be documents that are controlled like classified stuff. They are going to have copies of the other stuff from staffers and it wouldn't matter if they exist somewhere else as long as they do not contain classified info.

[mikeylikey]

There is no chance that there are printersdoing that with a connection to the database. Bureaucracy doesn't work that way, and none of the people talking about it in interviews dexscribe it that way. It is clearly described as the department that handles that (NARA in some form) prints and disseminates the documents and they are returned there for disposal or posterity. Everything that left there has to be accounted for. That's why staff had to pick up and reassemble stuff that Trump tore up. They do not play fast and loose with this stuff, that's just Trump ignoring convention for the sake of being a dick and causing extra work and aggravation for everyone around him.

Hang on. Some stuff is classified by virtue of what it is, no? Like if Trump is getting a briefing about a classified subject and takes handwritten notes, those notes are classified from the moment they come into existence, even though they don't bear a stamp and are not listed in any ledger. Likewise if somebody on the staff with clearance types and prints a memo on their West Wing computer, and the memo contains information that is classified, that memo is classified from the second it is printed out, but wouldn't be in any NARA database. A transcript made on the spot of a conversation with a foreign leader could also be inherently classified without ever being formally so.

I'm sure white house staff isn't SUPPOSED to put classified information into writing without following process, but as you say, fast and loose.

It is not obvious to me that the NARA or whoever would have any way of knowing, comprehensively, what Trump had without actually sifting through it.


To be fair, the executive branch of our government does seem to have a habit of just making everything classified until someone successfully sues them, and that is bullshit on par with Trump's "Standing Order" that anything he personally removes is deemed declassified.

[oldguy]

There is no chance that there are printersdoing that with a connection to the database. Bureaucracy doesn't work that way, and none of the people talking about it in interviews dexscribe it that way. It is clearly described as the department that handles that (NARA in some form) prints and disseminates the documents and they are returned there for disposal or posterity. Everything that left there has to be accounted for. That's why staff had to pick up and reassemble stuff that Trump tore up. They do not play fast and loose with this stuff, that's just Trump ignoring convention for the sake of being a dick and causing extra work and aggravation for everyone around him.

Like if Trump is getting a briefing about a classified subject and takes handwritten notes,

you have a great sense of humor

[mikeylikey]

There is no chance that there are printersdoing that with a connection to the database. Bureaucracy doesn't work that way, and none of the people talking about it in interviews dexscribe it that way. It is clearly described as the department that handles that (NARA in some form) prints and disseminates the documents and they are returned there for disposal or posterity. Everything that left there has to be accounted for. That's why staff had to pick up and reassemble stuff that Trump tore up. They do not play fast and loose with this stuff, that's just Trump ignoring convention for the sake of being a dick and causing extra work and aggravation for everyone around him.

Like if Trump is getting a briefing about a classified subject and takes handwritten notes,

you have a great sense of humor

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/politics ... index.html

Maybe it was a dear john letter?

[Hardartery]

There is no chance that there are printersdoing that with a connection to the database. Bureaucracy doesn't work that way, and none of the people talking about it in interviews dexscribe it that way. It is clearly described as the department that handles that (NARA in some form) prints and disseminates the documents and they are returned there for disposal or posterity. Everything that left there has to be accounted for. That's why staff had to pick up and reassemble stuff that Trump tore up. They do not play fast and loose with this stuff, that's just Trump ignoring convention for the sake of being a dick and causing extra work and aggravation for everyone around him.

Hang on. Some stuff is classified by virtue of what it is, no? Like if Trump is getting a briefing about a classified subject and takes handwritten notes, those notes are classified from the moment they come into existence, even though they don't bear a stamp and are not listed in any ledger. Likewise if somebody on the staff with clearance types and prints a memo on their West Wing computer, and the memo contains information that is classified, that memo is classified from the second it is printed out, but wouldn't be in any NARA database. A transcript made on the spot of a conversation with a foreign leader could also be inherently classified without ever being formally so.

I'm sure white house staff isn't SUPPOSED to put classified information into writing without following process, but as you say, fast and loose.

It is not obvious to me that the NARA or whoever would have any way of knowing, comprehensively, what Trump had without actually sifting through it.


To be fair, the executive branch of our government does seem to have a habit of just making everything classified until someone successfully sues them, and that is bullshit on par with Trump's "Standing Order" that anything he personally removes is deemed declassified.

The staff would be well aware and well briefed on what would be classified in those situations and the procedures for securing it. They reportedly also performed this function with Trumps documents, knowing the law in that regard and trying to follow it, reportedly. Anything like that that somehow managed to not have become catalogued and yet also found to exist during a search would have been gravy. LOL at Trump taking notes. There was clearly more than enough fully documented paperwork unaccounted for to justify the search and seizure, and no indication that anything extra was discovered. He was clearly just keeping souvenirs with no regard for anyone or anything outside of himself, and is just dim enough to think no one would have kept track of all of it. The government does not play fast and loose like that, and if he had any awareness outside of where the ketchup is he would have realized that.

[aurelius]

Something I find more than telling: Trump nor his defenders have bothered to explain why Trump had these Top Secret documents. They have failed to offer one legitimate reason for Trump to possess these documents after leaving office.

Why did Trump have these documents?

[JonA]

Something I find more than telling: Trump nor his defenders have bothered to explain why Trump had these Top Secret documents. They have failed to offer one legitimate reason for Trump to possess these documents after leaving office.

Why did Trump have these documents?

I think everyone agrees that he shouldn't have kept them. Which is why the conversation is deflected to "Are they important"

Why do you think he kept them? Do you think he had intents beyond simply keeping them, such as hiding crimes, selling secrets or blackmail or similar?

ETA:. I don't think that's the case, because they issued a search warrant, not a FISA warrant. To me, that implies it is the physical documents that are at issue, not the information in them.

ETA 2:. Not a trump supporter but I'll answer anyway. I think he kept them because he's a bitter narcissist who had just lost the election and is paranoid from being under investigation for about 6+ years now.

[JonA]

if he had any awareness outside of where the ketchup is he would have realized that.

Can you imagine if he would have been John Kerry's running mate?

[Hardartery]

if he had any awareness outside of where the ketchup is he would have realized that.

Can you imagine if he would have been John Kerry's running mate?

It would have been better than Admiral Stockton. Wow, the memes that could have been...

[aurelius]

Something I find more than telling: Trump nor his defenders have bothered to explain why Trump had these Top Secret documents. They have failed to offer one legitimate reason for Trump to possess these documents after leaving office.

Why did Trump have these documents?

I think everyone agrees that he shouldn't have kept them. Which is why the conversation is deflected to "Are they important"

Why do you think he kept them? Do you think he had intents beyond simply keeping them, such as hiding crimes, selling secrets or blackmail or similar?

ETA:. I don't think that's the case, because they issued a search warrant, not a FISA warrant. To me, that implies it is the physical documents that are at issue, not the information in them.

ETA 2:. Not a trump supporter but I'll answer anyway. I think he kept them because he's a bitter narcissist who had just lost the election and is paranoid from being under investigation for about 6+ years now.

We don’t know if there is a FISA warrant. The DOJ would not disclose that they have a FISA warrant unless they have to.

In this case, they didn’t have to as they could demonstrate probable cause for a search for the ‘normal’ warrant process. They knew what documents he had (as others have discussed), had asked him to turn them over, and he lied about it. This is about as stupid as it gets.

As to the why I think he had those documents: 1) Trump believes he could shoot a man in cold blood and get away with it. 2) blackmail for a rainy day

I don’t put selling US secrets to foreign entities past Trump. I do think he understands that would be a difficult sale to his MAGA supporters. And his political support is the only thing that keeps they myriad of legal issues he faces at bay.

And at the end of the day, Trump himself has proffered no reason for having the documents. Which leads me to believe the worst.

[EricK]

There is no chance that there are printersdoing that with a connection to the database. Bureaucracy doesn't work that way, and none of the people talking about it in interviews dexscribe it that way. It is clearly described as the department that handles that (NARA in some form) prints and disseminates the documents and they are returned there for disposal or posterity. Everything that left there has to be accounted for. That's why staff had to pick up and reassemble stuff that Trump tore up. They do not play fast and loose with this stuff, that's just Trump ignoring convention for the sake of being a dick and causing extra work and aggravation for everyone around him.

Like if Trump is getting a briefing about a classified subject and takes handwritten notes,

you have a great sense of humor

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/politics ... index.html

Maybe it was a dear john letter?

I don't think it had to do with the classification of the notes so much as the presidential records act.

But there could have been classified information in them as well, I dunno.

[hector]

I can't get over the fact that they evidently called ahead and asked the staff to properly secure the documents. (Which they did)

There's all sorts of other revelations that, quite frankly, offend me. For example: The federal government seems to allow people to print top secret/classified documents to paper.

It's easier to check out the hard copy of a document like the library and then ddestroy it afterwards than to erase it's footprint on an electronic device. Safer than having it on a tablet in the Oval Office in many ways. Trump is getting caught because he thinks everyone is as sloppy as him. Archivists derive great joy over the OCD tracking of paper, he doesn't seem to get that they DO actually keep a detailed record of every piece of paper and where it is supposed to be.

Another random thought on this...I didn't see that they seized any computer equipment, but just physical documents. Trump could have easily scanned all the info in those documents in the 2 years that he had custody of them if he was planning on leveraging it somehow. It implies that the actual information in the files maybe isn't that important. If the info of those files really was important for nation security, they would have had to confiscate any and everything that might have electronic copies of it as well.

Similarly, for those that think he took the records to hide evidence of crimes that he committed. Doesn't that imply that these documents are original documents without copies? If they were print outs or copies that he had taken with him, all the evidence would already be in available via other copies or the original documents themselves.

On the other hand, if they are indeed unique original documents (of which the DoJ doesn't know the contents), if they contained evidence of crimes that Trump committed, why in the world would he keep them? Especially since there was quite a bit of forewarning that the DoJ wanted those documents.

The idea that these are originals and unique holds no water. The NARA knew what he had because they track it when they make a copy and give it to someone to read, like a library book. So, they knew exactly what he had not returned which makes the fact that he kept pretending to have returned everything even stupider than it would seem. Captain Dunning-Kruger just thinks averyone else is even dumber than he is, reinforced by surrounding himself with idiots.

NARA had the records before they were at Maralago?

They always have them. That's who prints them off and stamps them with classifications. It's not just after the fact, they are involved all the way through. Like this stupid "How do we know they didn't add stuff to the boxes or plant evidence?" nonsense spouted by people like that tool Paul, because they had a list of what was missing before they drove over there that's how.

You don't think the White House has their own classified printers? You think NARA prints out all classified documents on behalf of the White House?

(I think I'm misunderstanding you.)

There is no chance that there are printersdoing that with a connection to the database. Bureaucracy doesn't work that way, and none of the people talking about it in interviews dexscribe it that way. It is clearly described as the department that handles that (NARA in some form) prints and disseminates the documents and they are returned there for disposal or posterity. Everything that left there has to be accounted for. That's why staff had to pick up and reassemble stuff that Trump tore up. They do not play fast and loose with this stuff, that's just Trump ignoring convention for the sake of being a dick and causing extra work and aggravation for everyone around him.

Can you tell me more about this. Where did you learn that NARA prints White House documents?

What is the sequence of events that would allow Trump to store documents that were printed by NARA rather than the White House?

Just to make sure I understand how you're describing this, you think NARA is directly connected to White House databases and then prints documents for the White House?

(I'm sure , again, I'm misunderstanding your description.)

[Hardartery]

I can't get over the fact that they evidently called ahead and asked the staff to properly secure the documents. (Which they did)

There's all sorts of other revelations that, quite frankly, offend me. For example: The federal government seems to allow people to print top secret/classified documents to paper.

It's easier to check out the hard copy of a document like the library and then ddestroy it afterwards than to erase it's footprint on an electronic device. Safer than having it on a tablet in the Oval Office in many ways. Trump is getting caught because he thinks everyone is as sloppy as him. Archivists derive great joy over the OCD tracking of paper, he doesn't seem to get that they DO actually keep a detailed record of every piece of paper and where it is supposed to be.

Another random thought on this...I didn't see that they seized any computer equipment, but just physical documents. Trump could have easily scanned all the info in those documents in the 2 years that he had custody of them if he was planning on leveraging it somehow. It implies that the actual information in the files maybe isn't that important. If the info of those files really was important for nation security, they would have had to confiscate any and everything that might have electronic copies of it as well.

Similarly, for those that think he took the records to hide evidence of crimes that he committed. Doesn't that imply that these documents are original documents without copies? If they were print outs or copies that he had taken with him, all the evidence would already be in available via other copies or the original documents themselves.

On the other hand, if they are indeed unique original documents (of which the DoJ doesn't know the contents), if they contained evidence of crimes that Trump committed, why in the world would he keep them? Especially since there was quite a bit of forewarning that the DoJ wanted those documents.

The idea that these are originals and unique holds no water. The NARA knew what he had because they track it when they make a copy and give it to someone to read, like a library book. So, they knew exactly what he had not returned which makes the fact that he kept pretending to have returned everything even stupider than it would seem. Captain Dunning-Kruger just thinks averyone else is even dumber than he is, reinforced by surrounding himself with idiots.

NARA had the records before they were at Maralago?

They always have them. That's who prints them off and stamps them with classifications. It's not just after the fact, they are involved all the way through. Like this stupid "How do we know they didn't add stuff to the boxes or plant evidence?" nonsense spouted by people like that tool Paul, because they had a list of what was missing before they drove over there that's how.

You don't think the White House has their own classified printers? You think NARA prints out all classified documents on behalf of the White House?

(I think I'm misunderstanding you.)

There is no chance that there are printersdoing that with a connection to the database. Bureaucracy doesn't work that way, and none of the people talking about it in interviews dexscribe it that way. It is clearly described as the department that handles that (NARA in some form) prints and disseminates the documents and they are returned there for disposal or posterity. Everything that left there has to be accounted for. That's why staff had to pick up and reassemble stuff that Trump tore up. They do not play fast and loose with this stuff, that's just Trump ignoring convention for the sake of being a dick and causing extra work and aggravation for everyone around him.

Can you tell me more about this. Where did you learn that NARA prints White House documents?

What is the sequence of events that would allow Trump to store documents that were printed by NARA rather than the White House?

Just to make sure I understand how you're describing this, you think NARA is directly connected to White House databases and then prints documents for the White House?

(I'm sure , again, I'm misunderstanding your description.)

I'm basing that entirely on what experts (People that have worked there) have said in interviews that I have seen. And I do not mean on Fox or MSNBC or any of that, I try to avoid the nauseatingly biased sources on both sides. I have heard multiple interviews where people describe the porocess basically the same way. It's bureaucracy, nobody is printing off their own classified documents they are going to be printed by way of a dedicated process with checks and record keeping. People tossing around this idea of any of that info just being randomly printable by whomever in the White House or anywhere else is delusional. That's not how things work. The record keeping regarding this stuff is extremely meticulous and controlled.

[mikeylikey]

People tossing around this idea of any of that info just being randomly printable by whomever in the White House or anywhere else is delusional. That's not how things work. The record keeping regarding this stuff is extremely meticulous and controlled.

Why not?

Jarred has top secret clearance. He writes an email to Don Jr, and in this email mentions things which are classified by virtue of the subject matter. This is not a pre-existing classified document which is on a secure server. It's de-facto classified by its very existence. Don Jr. prints it out for dad to read on the toilet. This can happen no?


All the procedures in the world only work if the people in the west wing have a modicum of discipline. Which even in normal administrations, is probably shockingly lacking... See HRC email server.

This is the Trump administration we are taking about. Do you think Don Jr. and Jarred carefully subjected everything they printed on their office printer to the correct review and retention procedures?

[JonA]

This is the Trump administration we are taking about. Do you think Don Jr. and Jarred carefully subjected everything they printed on their office printer to the correct review and retention procedures?

Probably not for classified/top secret. But they seem pretty aware, careful and diligent about documents subject to executive privilege.

[mikeylikey]

As to the why I think he had those documents: 1) Trump believes he could shoot a man in cold blood and get away with it. 2) blackmail for a rainy day

I'm just guessing like everybody else, but in my imagination, Trump believes himself to be a righteous actor among a sea of soundrels, and the DeEp sTatE LiBtArdS are going to persecute him by telling LIES (SAD!) about what he did while in office. My guess is the various documents he kept were calculated by him to be useful some way in refuting whatever lies he expects to be told about him, especially when he runs for office again in '24. "See, I never said that, and this transcript proves it" etc. Leak it to the press and then tweet (truthpost?) the news story.

[Hiphopapotamus]

As to the why I think he had those documents: 1) Trump believes he could shoot a man in cold blood and get away with it. 2) blackmail for a rainy day

I'm just guessing like everybody else, but in my imagination, Trump believes himself to be a righteous actor among a sea of soundrels, and the DeEp sTatE LiBtArdS are going to persecute him by telling LIES (SAD!) about what he did while in office. My guess is the various documents he kept were calculated by him to be useful some way in refuting whatever lies he expects to be told about him, especially when he runs for office again in '24. "See, I never said that, and this transcript proves it" etc. Leak it to the press and then tweet (truthpost?) the news story.

My hot take, it's probably stuff like highly detailed intelligence briefings on the Chinese military that happen to include pictures of really cool trucks. That, or love-letters from his fellow autocrats around the world.

[aurelius]

Let's put aside the issue of if Trump should be criminally prosecuted for taking top secret documents and obstruction of justice.

After the release of the affidavit, which confirmed the documents contained top secret human intelligence sources and national defense information at Mar-a-Lago; I really don't understand the controversy* over the government taking action to secure these documents. The government gave Trump every opportunity to return these documents and he chose not to. Human assets in the field and intelligence operations were at risk. This was not some hypothetical exercise. The government had to act. Or am I not understanding something?

*I do understand the Republican's political play to their MAGA base in these cynical times. At some point though, Republicans have to understand the undermining of US institutions and the rule of law will bite them too. We are on a countdown to States ignoring Supreme Court rulings.

[mikeylikey]

Like if Trump is getting a briefing about a classified subject and takes handwritten notes,

you have a great sense of humor

https://apps.npr.org/documents/document ... -lago-affi

Boom.

Paragraph 47.

Several of the documents also contained what appears to be FPOTUS's handwritten notes.