Program recommendations?

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CaptainAwesome
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Re: Program recommendations?

#41

Post by CaptainAwesome » Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:08 pm

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:44 am For your lower body lifts (as you are currently doing them) what I meant was that, if they generate so much fatigue that you can't complete the rest of the volume that you need to do in order to grow, then it might be a problem. Now I might have been unclear by what I meant by "hypertrophy work", I did not mean that you can't use the squat as hypertrophy work, to the contrary. However there is a difference between doing all of your squatting with sets of 5 at RPE 9 (that's the starting strength approach in a nutshell) and doing a variety of rep ranges, using variants (front squat, high bar squat, ssb squats, belt squats and so on). For instance, doing 5 sets of 10 reps on the high bar squat will certainly be considered hypertrophy work. Would you get hypertrophy if you only did sets of 5@9 on the low bar squat ? For sure, but the fatigue cost might be much higher than using a more balanced approach.

Lower body main lifts generate more fatigue than upper body because of axial loading so this is why fatigue management is more critical. You can do a lot of benching without creating that much fatigue (in all gyms of the world you see bros doing bench press marathons, and they seem ok).

You mention your lower body sessions being too long, it might be your conditioning holding you back. If you increase your conditioning you can rest less and do more work per unit of time, which eventually becomes a necessity when you need high volume to make progress. As much as Starting Strength loves to make fun of bodybuilders, I don't think any of them would survive a bodybuilding style leg day without passing out. Also as far as conditioning is concerned, it does not have to be low intensity cardio: you can do prowler pushes, air bike tabata, sled drags, hill sprints, jumping rope, strongmen medleys etc.
I think a lot will be fixed if I can get to the point where I can rest as short between squat sets as I can between my other lifts. It feels like even when I do lighter deadlifts for volume I can still bounce back better between sets. Really, the deadlift feels less stressful and fatiguing in general, even with weight far in excess of my squats that kill me. I will say I do not do volume squats @9, if "@9" means one rep in reserve (I see different explanations of RPE in places, so I'm not sure whether that's what it means). The last time I squatted that intensely as part of a multiple set workout was when I was pushing LP. Despite the conception, I have heard and read various SSCs say grinding, especially on volume, is bad. It does contradict the messaging in other areas of the SS universe (and things I have heard Rip himself say), but it lines up more with what experience has taught me, so it's what I go with. I do relax this a bit with intensity work, and if I end up with a bad grind because of it, I deload the movement and its "partner" lift the following week.

I've tried tabatas on a recumbent bike in the past, I didn't find much help provided with the squatting problems, though they seemed a very time efficient way to do conditioning, work. It's entirely possible I just didn't know how to program the things effectively to generate results. A lot of other options are off the table for me. When I saw one of the gyms I visit had a prowler, I thought "oh cool, that's that thing SS keeps saying is the best for conditioning". Unfortunately, it was a cheap piece of crap that instead of sliding forward along the ground when I pushed it it just flipped over. I had to get into this extremely exaggerated lunge-forward stance to keep the thing from flipping when pushed, and it was doing my ankles no favors. Running of any kind is no good for me, and jumping rope for me is only good for making an audience laugh. I am definitely going to try the advice from here to just condition the squat using...the squat. It'll keep me from advancing on heavy work for a while and might even make me detrain a bit, but I think once I can stop dreading extra long workouts from one single exercise I'll be a lot better off.

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DCR
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Re: Program recommendations?

#42

Post by DCR » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:34 pm

CaptainAwesome wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:08 pm I am definitely going to try the advice from here to just condition the squat using...the squat. It'll keep me from advancing on heavy work for a while and might even make me detrain a bit, but I think once I can stop dreading extra long workouts from one single exercise I'll be a lot better off.
You could continue pushing the heavy sets, albeit with a few sets less per session, and put that time into finishing your session with a set or two of 20-rep squats, starting stupid light and progressing them along with your heavy stuff. That ought to condition you for wherever you want to go next.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#43

Post by MarkKO » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:41 pm

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:18 am If you are relatively "new" to programming, in the sense that you have not tried a lot of programming styles, I feel that the best way to go about this is to give yourself a period of time, say 1 or 2 years, when you experiment and monitor response, so that you actually have an idea of what works for you. Find a set of reasonable programs from reputable sources, and run each of them for say 12 weeks, and see what they do for you: monitor which lifts are increasing, whether or not you like doing them consistently, whether or not you get injured etc.

My opinion on what makes a program reasonable would be:

- the program was made by a reputable person: the person is strong, has been making many other people strong, and has a tolerable personality (in the sense that they do not act like a cult leader or a used car salesman)
- you practice the lifts that you want to get better at: if you want to get good at squatting you need to squat at least sometimes
- a significant part of the program is hypertrophy work: if you do not get bigger your strength will be capped
- you do some form of conditioning to bring up your work capacity (otherwise you will not be able to perform all of the hypertrophy work and recover)
- some form of reasonable progression is implemented: for instance training maxes are increased by a small amount each week or you use amraps to decide when to add weight, or there are RPE targets etc.
- every session is not designed to feel like an out of body experience where you leave the gym completely destroyed


For instance in your current program you do so much of your main lifts that you have no energy for your hypertrophy work, so this is a problem.

Some examples of programs that I would consider reasonable and that I have tried in the past are:

- Barbell Medicine
- RTS
- Stronger by Science
- 531

There are many other reasonable programs that I have not tried, such as the ones cited on the thread, (Andy Baker programs, Hanley's programs etc.) all look very reasonable for instance. I would not consider Starting Strength and its derivatives to be reasonable, also.

Some of the programs will work, some will not, but the information you gather doing them can guide you after you are done experimenting (so it's not wasted time). I think that the amount of variability in response to programs is very underestimated, there are programs that are sound but will simply not work for you. There are also people who do really well on programs that are "not supposed to work". This is also why I feel that program reviews have a small but limited value (even worse if the person reviewing the program has not done the program).
That should be pinned somewhere. Especially the get bigger part.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#44

Post by cole » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:45 pm

@CaptainAwesome not sure if you have already decided on a program, but having done SSLP then 4 day TM much like yourself, I would say you are probably not in a bad position to start learning some RPE skills and doing a more moderate intensity approach. Backing of the intensity of TM will certainly help rejuvinate the body and mind. I would recommend any of the BBM templates https://www.barbellmedicine.com/shop/tr ... templates/ such as Strength I, II, or III or if you are looking for a free version you could do The Bridge or The Generalized Intermediate. However, I would play it more conservative with BBM as the intensities and volume can get a little high before you know it. Another area to check out if you like a more Low Fatigue model would be DDShttps://www.data-drivenstrength.com/ind ... rogramming. They are my #1 choice for long term strength gains. Good luck

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Re: Program recommendations?

#45

Post by cole » Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:04 pm

Also, from a recent BBM article

The basic criteria for a general strength program:

1.Exercises specific to the desired adaptations, e.g., specific movements, range of motion, movement velocity, contraction type, individual preferences, etc.
2.A minimum threshold for strength training of ~65-75% 1RM for multiple-repetition work and greater than ~85-90% 1RM for single-repetition efforts.
3.Rep schemes that are similar to the desired outcome(s) being tested.
4.Total training volume that is sufficient to drive adaptations at an acceptable rate, yet is also well-tolerated.
5.Proximity to failure that generates relatively small decreases in velocity and does not routinely expose the individual to muscular failure.
6.Autoregulation tools to guide load selection to match the current fitness and performance level, while maintaining an appropriate proximity to failure.
7.A progression model that supports the criteria above.

FredM
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Re: Program recommendations?

#46

Post by FredM » Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:01 pm

Not a fan of BBM templates. The newest ones are supposedly better but they're pretty expensive for the statistical outcomes:

1. You make as much progress as you would working out half as much
2. You trade the insane intensity of Aasgard with insane volume and get pretty similar results
3. You injure yourself because RPE 9 to you means you could get one more rep if your life and the life of your loved ones were on the line -- and Jordan refuses to correct you because all that seemingly matters is you're consistent.

(only half joking)

I strongly recommend Stronger By Science. Greg's programs are basically all free. The free 28 programs are 4 weeks long and give you very quick feedback on their effectiveness. BBM and others want you to spend $40+ and 8-16 weeks @ 4+ hrs/wk. Greg works in meaningful tests every week or every 4 weeks depending on the level. It's also way easier to customize.

I also agree with what @CheekiBreekiFitness said. 28 programs is setup perfectly for this if you're new to programming yourself.

Personally I don't think MM is hugely different from the 28 programs layout but can be worth trying as well. What is different is Hanley's HVLF (supposedly similar to Data Driven strength mentioned by cole). So if "traditional" doesn't seem to be working for you you can try that as well. I didn't read every reply here but I imagine someone else linked the thread with the details. It's pretty infamous here.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#47

Post by MarkKO » Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:52 am

FredM wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:01 pm Not a fan of BBM templates. The newest ones are supposedly better but they're pretty expensive for the statistical outcomes:

1. You make as much progress as you would working out half as much
2. You trade the insane intensity of Aasgard with insane volume and get pretty similar results
3. You injure yourself because RPE 9 to you means you could get one more rep if your life and the life of your loved ones were on the line -- and Jordan refuses to correct you because all that seemingly matters is you're consistent.

(only half joking)

I strongly recommend Stronger By Science. Greg's programs are basically all free. The free 28 programs are 4 weeks long and give you very quick feedback on their effectiveness. BBM and others want you to spend $40+ and 8-16 weeks @ 4+ hrs/wk. Greg works in meaningful tests every week or every 4 weeks depending on the level. It's also way easier to customize.

I also agree with what @CheekiBreekiFitness said. 28 programs is setup perfectly for this if you're new to programming yourself.

Personally I don't think MM is hugely different from the 28 programs layout but can be worth trying as well. What is different is Hanley's HVLF (supposedly similar to Data Driven strength mentioned by cole). So if "traditional" doesn't seem to be working for you you can try that as well. I didn't read every reply here but I imagine someone else linked the thread with the details. It's pretty infamous here.
This goes some way to supporting conclusions I have been reaching regarding BBM...

Really, outside actually doing an internship for a reputable coach using different programs and periodically trying to program for yourself is probably about as good a way to learn how to program as you'll get.

The only caveat is no matter what you do, you have to be pretty meticulous about recording what you do and have your brain switched on the whole time. You've got to be consciously assessing as you go, or you won't really learn much at all.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#48

Post by Theophilus » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:43 am

Lots of good information in this thread. OP, it's not without mild amusement that I had been following your squat programming thread on the SS forum, with the predictable replies from the legion of mini-Rips; and lo and behold you post here and get some useful info.

At any rate, I'm in a similar spot as OP. I had a satisfying run on an SS-modeled NLP and am at the point where my lifts are mostly stagnant, doing something halfway between SS's late beginner programming and Texas Method, and I'm probably suffering paralysis by analysis on how to proceed. There's just far too much information out there on intermediate programming. The advice to spend a year or two cycling through different programming styles (along with the criteria by which to weigh the options) sounds like a good path forward. Now, where to start...

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Re: Program recommendations?

#49

Post by CaptainAwesome » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:50 pm

Theophilus wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:43 am Lots of good information in this thread. OP, it's not without mild amusement that I had been following your squat programming thread on the SS forum, with the predictable replies from the legion of mini-Rips; and lo and behold you post here and get some useful info.
Yeah, it saddens me. It was really weird being told the stuff I followed from the Paul Horn video was "wrong", and that I needed to just jack that 5x5 up forever. They even still have the video on their channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QyYU56cj_A. The "making it work for you" thrust was what I thought the crux of programming post novice really was. I think things are turning too much into "make you work for the program". Obviously the deconditioned explanation makes a LOT more sense for all of this to me. And to think, it wasn't even my programming that's to blame, it's getting in the habit of jacking up my LP squat by taking longer and longer rests. All because I saw so many old posts of weird people saying shit like "If you're a man under 50 and you didn't LP your squat to at least 315, you fucked up!".

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Re: Program recommendations?

#50

Post by FredM » Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:02 pm

MarkKO wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:52 am
The only caveat is no matter what you do, you have to be pretty meticulous about recording what you do and have your brain switched on the whole time. You've got to be consciously assessing as you go, or you won't really learn much at all.
Like most things in life, this is why it ultimately falls on you. The vast majority of "coaches" aren't going to do that for you either -- unless you're a competitive athlete and their reputation is tied to your progress/success. As a result, most "coaching" is basically equivalent to running a few templates and making minor adjustments based off your response in the first few months. You might as well find some free templates yourself and do the same thing.

It only took me 4 years to learn this. Which makes sense. I think I'm mostly obsessed with lifting because it's the one thing in life I've found that I truly and seriously suck at.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#51

Post by MarkKO » Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:39 am

FredM wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:02 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:52 am
The only caveat is no matter what you do, you have to be pretty meticulous about recording what you do and have your brain switched on the whole time. You've got to be consciously assessing as you go, or you won't really learn much at all.
Like most things in life, this is why it ultimately falls on you. The vast majority of "coaches" aren't going to do that for you either -- unless you're a competitive athlete and their reputation is tied to your progress/success. As a result, most "coaching" is basically equivalent to running a few templates and making minor adjustments based off your response in the first few months. You might as well find some free templates yourself and do the same thing.

It only took me 4 years to learn this. Which makes sense. I think I'm mostly obsessed with lifting because it's the one thing in life I've found that I truly and seriously suck at.
I can't really disagree with any of that. Although I don't know if you really do seriously suck at lifting. You might just not be as good at it as you would like, and that will likely change as you keep doing it.

Where I think a lot of people fall down is not actively looking for information that is new to them in the first few years; but unfortunately this is also the period where we are usually least able to make the distinction between good and bad sources, and nowadays the sheer profusion of information of all kinds makes this even harder.

I am very glad that from the get go I read and read whatever I could find (I can't stand podcasts and YT videos. I don't retain well unless I read or do); and I was fortunate enough to have had some education in research which I think helped me mostly avoid the BS.

It certainly helped immensely that by the time I did get coached, I could understand what was being done and was able to learn a lot more from it than simply coming in and doing what I was told. I did, of course. Religiously. It just helped that while doing it I understood the why.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#52

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:29 am

CaptainAwesome wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:50 pm
Theophilus wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:43 am Lots of good information in this thread. OP, it's not without mild amusement that I had been following your squat programming thread on the SS forum, with the predictable replies from the legion of mini-Rips; and lo and behold you post here and get some useful info.
Yeah, it saddens me. It was really weird being told the stuff I followed from the Paul Horn video was "wrong", and that I needed to just jack that 5x5 up forever. They even still have the video on their channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QyYU56cj_A. The "making it work for you" thrust was what I thought the crux of programming post novice really was. I think things are turning too much into "make you work for the program". Obviously the deconditioned explanation makes a LOT more sense for all of this to me. And to think, it wasn't even my programming that's to blame, it's getting in the habit of jacking up my LP squat by taking longer and longer rests. All because I saw so many old posts of weird people saying shit like "If you're a man under 50 and you didn't LP your squat to at least 315, you fucked up!".
The whole belief of "If you're a man under 50 and you didn't LP your squat to at least 315, you fucked up!" is interesting when you know that @Austin mentioned ending his LP at 275 on the squat, and now squats over 600. I don't understand how they reconcile this fact with their belief.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#53

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:32 am

Theophilus wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:43 am Lots of good information in this thread. OP, it's not without mild amusement that I had been following your squat programming thread on the SS forum, with the predictable replies from the legion of mini-Rips; and lo and behold you post here and get some useful info.

At any rate, I'm in a similar spot as OP. I had a satisfying run on an SS-modeled NLP and am at the point where my lifts are mostly stagnant, doing something halfway between SS's late beginner programming and Texas Method, and I'm probably suffering paralysis by analysis on how to proceed. There's just far too much information out there on intermediate programming. The advice to spend a year or two cycling through different programming styles (along with the criteria by which to weigh the options) sounds like a good path forward. Now, where to start...
You could make a list of 6 reasonable programs and decide on the first to try by casting a dice. If you have no prior information about which of those programs might work better for you then I doubt you can do better than random choice.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#54

Post by MarkKO » Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:36 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:32 am
Theophilus wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:43 am Lots of good information in this thread. OP, it's not without mild amusement that I had been following your squat programming thread on the SS forum, with the predictable replies from the legion of mini-Rips; and lo and behold you post here and get some useful info.

At any rate, I'm in a similar spot as OP. I had a satisfying run on an SS-modeled NLP and am at the point where my lifts are mostly stagnant, doing something halfway between SS's late beginner programming and Texas Method, and I'm probably suffering paralysis by analysis on how to proceed. There's just far too much information out there on intermediate programming. The advice to spend a year or two cycling through different programming styles (along with the criteria by which to weigh the options) sounds like a good path forward. Now, where to start...
You could make a list of 6 reasonable programs and decide on the first to try by casting a dice. If you have no prior information about which of those programs might work better for you then I doubt you can do better than random choice.
If you were the patient type, this could work over three years. Six months per program. Each time you roll the dice, you erase the option it lands on.

I say six months because that is a good period of time to do something. Three months or less is probably too short.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#55

Post by dw » Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:41 am

FredM wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:02 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:52 am
The only caveat is no matter what you do, you have to be pretty meticulous about recording what you do and have your brain switched on the whole time. You've got to be consciously assessing as you go, or you won't really learn much at all.
Like most things in life, this is why it ultimately falls on you. The vast majority of "coaches" aren't going to do that for you either -- unless you're a competitive athlete and their reputation is tied to your progress/success. As a result, most "coaching" is basically equivalent to running a few templates and making minor adjustments based off your response in the first few months. You might as well find some free templates yourself and do the same thing.

It only took me 4 years to learn this. Which makes sense. I think I'm mostly obsessed with lifting because it's the one thing in life I've found that I truly and seriously suck at.

I have often had the same thought. SS was the only thing I had set my mind to that I just completely failed at. Lifting was the only such thing I ever gave up on. I now know exactly what my problem was but that's only because I happened to read some early BBM content during the start of the pandemic some 10 years later.

I think I'm a little more optimistic than you though. I need a lot of volume which means a lot of time in the gym, but given that I think my potential is ok.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#56

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:54 am

MarkKO wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:36 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:32 am
Theophilus wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:43 am Lots of good information in this thread. OP, it's not without mild amusement that I had been following your squat programming thread on the SS forum, with the predictable replies from the legion of mini-Rips; and lo and behold you post here and get some useful info.

At any rate, I'm in a similar spot as OP. I had a satisfying run on an SS-modeled NLP and am at the point where my lifts are mostly stagnant, doing something halfway between SS's late beginner programming and Texas Method, and I'm probably suffering paralysis by analysis on how to proceed. There's just far too much information out there on intermediate programming. The advice to spend a year or two cycling through different programming styles (along with the criteria by which to weigh the options) sounds like a good path forward. Now, where to start...
You could make a list of 6 reasonable programs and decide on the first to try by casting a dice. If you have no prior information about which of those programs might work better for you then I doubt you can do better than random choice.
If you were the patient type, this could work over three years. Six months per program. Each time you roll the dice, you erase the option it lands on.

I say six months because that is a good period of time to do something. Three months or less is probably too short.
Absolutely.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#57

Post by CaptainAwesome » Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:34 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:29 am The whole belief of "If you're a man under 50 and you didn't LP your squat to at least 315, you fucked up!" is interesting when you know that @Austin mentioned ending his LP at 275 on the squat, and now squats over 600. I don't understand how they reconcile this fact with their belief.
I dont know, but learning to not get bothered by them or some hyperbolic statement rip has made about squatting 405 in a year being normal have both been important for my journey through this thing. Even if i couldnt make it to the weirdly high bar, i think even lping my squat into high 200s from a very heavy 95 start weight was a great success.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#58

Post by CaptainAwesome » Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:39 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:32 am You could make a list of 6 reasonable programs and decide on the first to try by casting a dice. If you have no prior information about which of those programs might work better for you then I doubt you can do better than random choice.
Heres a question that might deserve its own thread: could one perhaps use response to the ssnlp as a guide for what types of programming youre responding well to?

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Re: Program recommendations?

#59

Post by Hanley » Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:26 pm

Sheiko, Nuckols, 5/3/1, BBM..

Really doesn't matter much. If session-in, session-out, you can nudge yourself towards the idea that this given rep, or this given set, or this given session is the most important thing you've ever done, you'll do fine.

Bestow that level of insane importance on a basic 5/3/1 setup, and you'll have the greatest run of training in your life.

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Re: Program recommendations?

#60

Post by MarkKO » Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:01 am

Hanley wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:26 pm Sheiko, Nuckols, 5/3/1, BBM..

Really doesn't matter much. If session-in, session-out, you can nudge yourself towards the idea that this given rep, or this given set, or this given session is the most important thing you've ever done, you'll do fine.

Bestow that level of insane importance on a basic 5/3/1 setup, and you'll have the greatest run of training in your life.
I got a lot of love for vanilla 5/3/1. One day I might go back to running it.

Any time I see it mentioned, or mention it myself, I get a little itch to run it again knowing what I know now.

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