Program recommendations?

[JohnHelton]

@MarkKO Yeah. I like 5/3/1 with first set last (FSL). One can just tack on more sets of FSL as necessary to increase volume. BBB is also good for hypertrophy.

[CaptainAwesome]

Sheiko, Nuckols, 5/3/1, BBM..

Really doesn't matter much. If session-in, session-out, you can nudge yourself towards the idea that this given rep, or this given set, or this given session is the most important thing you've ever done, you'll do fine.

Bestow that level of insane importance on a basic 5/3/1 setup, and you'll have the greatest run of training in your life.

As in 5/3/1 with just the big four? I don't know how well I could expect that to go given where I'm at now. I'm not sure if more complexity is needed than that. When it comes to importance, even my warmups are done with intent. When I'm working with lighter loads for whatever reason, I still try to push them hard.

[Hanley]

Sheiko, Nuckols, 5/3/1, BBM..

Really doesn't matter much. If session-in, session-out, you can nudge yourself towards the idea that this given rep, or this given set, or this given session is the most important thing you've ever done, you'll do fine.

Bestow that level of insane importance on a basic 5/3/1 setup, and you'll have the greatest run of training in your life.

As in 5/3/1 with just the big four? I don't know how well I could expect that to go given where I'm at now. I'm not sure if more complexity is needed than that. When it comes to importance, even my warmups are done with intent. When I'm working with lighter loads for whatever reason, I still try to push them hard.

I took a quick look at your log. Have you been running the texas method for 6 months?

Edit:. Check out the Sheiko Gold app. I actually like that app (I hate all other "AI" apps I've tried).

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... sheikogold

[CaptainAwesome]

I took a quick look at your log. Have you been running the texas method for 6 months?

Edit:. Check out the Sheiko Gold app. I actually like that app (I hate all other "AI" apps I've tried).

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... sheikogold

Is it THE Texas Method? I dunno. I applied some tweaks to it, and took some deloading weeks here and there because I felt like too much fatigue had built up at times. Usually it was when I hit a really nasty grind on an intensity weight. Also, not every lift ran out at the same time. Ultimately the last one ran out at about 5 months in, I think? The log is still ongoing since I am still doing a 4 day texas method type setup, but with conservative starting weights (70% for 5x5, 80% for 5rm). The exception is the deadlift, which I am doing for 3x5 for volume, with a double overhand grip to keep the weight from ever getting too high. This was something I heard Jim Wendler suggest at some kind of Q&A when asked about volume deadlifting.

I'm also trying to add in more direct assistance type work using a kind of rest-pause scheme. Time is important, or WAS. I just kinda got downsized out of a job, and my training partner (fiancee) is still out with some weird issue with her trapezius. So while I technically have more time to do lots of work, I still think it's better to get a lifting workout done in under an hour and a half.

Final big change is moving to the monday-wednesday-friday-monday rotation for the four day split. I thought this might help with issues I've had with my squat, as well as what's probably been some fatigue issues from my deadlifts. I suspect I'm at the point, or at least getting to it, where truly heavy deadlifting (heavy for me, that is) might take more than a week to fully recover from.

I guess that was kinda long, but I think a lot about this stuff. Is that Sheiko thing a log app? I already have one. I actually use an old, out of service windows phone because it has a workout app I like that I could never find for other OS's. It's got a LOT of training entries saved in it.

[Hanley]

Is that Sheiko thing a log app?

No. It's a program builder app. It's excellent. You get 4 free "sheiko AI" sessions. It'll scale intensity and volume up-front based on questionnaire input and then adjust real-time based on qualitative feedback after each set, etc. Try it. It's quite good. Better than spreadsheets for sure.

[MarkKO]

@MarkKO Yeah. I like 5/3/1 with first set last (FSL). One can just tack on more sets of FSL as necessary to increase volume. BBB is also good for hypertrophy.

BBB is good for hypertrophy if you respond well to SBDP to grow. Many don't including myself. It's probably my least favourite iteration of 5/3/1 TBH. FSL is good.

Were I to run it again, it would be PR sets with 3x5 FSL and Periodisation Bible for assistance. I think the only real change I'd make is linking my TM progression to the PR sets so that the TM increased or stayed the same relative to what my ERM was from the PR sets.

[MarkKO]

Sheiko, Nuckols, 5/3/1, BBM..

Really doesn't matter much. If session-in, session-out, you can nudge yourself towards the idea that this given rep, or this given set, or this given session is the most important thing you've ever done, you'll do fine.

Bestow that level of insane importance on a basic 5/3/1 setup, and you'll have the greatest run of training in your life.

As in 5/3/1 with just the big four? I don't know how well I could expect that to go given where I'm at now. I'm not sure if more complexity is needed than that. When it comes to importance, even my warmups are done with intent. When I'm working with lighter loads for whatever reason, I still try to push them hard.

If you haven't read the book, do so.

5/3/1 refers to how the main lift is performed by week, really. Then there are assistance templates that follow it.

Certainly more complexity is almost never needed.

Briefly, 5/3/1 refers to your top set of the week. Its 5x85% in week one, 3x90% in week two and 1x95% in week three. You have the option to just do the prescribed reps for the top set or take it for a rep PR. Usually that top set is preceded by two working sets going up five per cent each time.

Then you do whatever assistance template you picked, which is standard bodybuilding work. Typically you stick with one template for a cycle or two.

[CaptainAwesome]

If you haven't read the book, do so.

5/3/1 refers to how the main lift is performed by week, really. Then there are assistance templates that follow it.

Certainly more complexity is almost never needed.

Briefly, 5/3/1 refers to your top set of the week. Its 5x75% in week one, 3x85% in week two and 1x95% in week three. You have the option to just do the prescribed reps for the top set or take it for a rep PR. Usually that top set is preceded by two working sets going up five per cent each time.

Then you do whatever assistance template you picked, which is standard bodybuilding work. Typically you stick with one template for a cycle or two.

I was under the impression that "basic" 5/3/1 meant the four barbell lifts without anything else.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Here is what a session in a basic 5/3/1 actually looks like (those are Wendlers reccomendations):

Main Lift: 3 ramping sets followed by supplementary work (those are essentially backoff sets)
Assistance: 50 reps of a pushing exercise, 50 reps of a pulling exercise, 25 reps of single leg work
Conditionning

Also if you want to do 5/3/1 you absolutely need to read the book. There are many options on how the ramping sets are done, how the backoff sets are done etc. hence the large number of templates described in the books.

[MarkKO]

Here is what a session in a basic 5/3/1 actually looks like (those are Wendlers reccomendations):

Main Lift: 3 ramping sets followed by supplementary work (those are essentially backoff sets)
Assistance: 50 reps of a pushing exercise, 50 reps of a pulling exercise, 25 reps of single leg work
Conditionning

Also if you want to do 5/3/1 you absolutely need to read the book. There are many options on how the ramping sets are done, how the backoff sets are done etc. hence the large number of templates described in the books.

This.

The unfortunate thing about 5/3/1 is that there are so many ways of running it 'correctly' that it has become very, very hard to find that very simple explanation.

That disadvantage pales into insignificance compared to how versatile a system it is. If I were to ever decide to throw my hat in the ring for strongman, I would likely use 5/3/1 as the basis for my training.

[MarkKO]

If you haven't read the book, do so.

5/3/1 refers to how the main lift is performed by week, really. Then there are assistance templates that follow it.

Certainly more complexity is almost never needed.

Briefly, 5/3/1 refers to your top set of the week. Its 5x75% in week one, 3x85% in week two and 1x95% in week three. You have the option to just do the prescribed reps for the top set or take it for a rep PR. Usually that top set is preceded by two working sets going up five per cent each time.

Then you do whatever assistance template you picked, which is standard bodybuilding work. Typically you stick with one template for a cycle or two.

I was under the impression that "basic" 5/3/1 meant the four barbell lifts without anything else.

No, but it's an understandable interpretation.

Over the years many iterations of 5/3/1 have emerged. You had the first book, which just gave a few assistance templates: Boring But Big, Triumvirate, Periodisation Bible and a couple of others. IMO still the best book. Then came Beyond 5/3/1 which introduced Joker sets (great in theory but mostly highly detrimental in practice), First Set Last, 5s Pro, 3/5/1 and Beyond itself (which I've used and is good but requires a degree of experience to run that the other iterations don't). More recently 5/3/1 Forever came out, which I haven't read. My understanding based on what I've been told by people who have read it and who I find to be competent in this area is that it is very good, and develops much further on what Wendler now views as the various ideal ways to run 5/3/1 for various applications.

The real advantage 5/3/1 has over many similar systems is that is absolutely isn't a powerlifting system. At all. It uses squat, bench and deadlift and adds pressing simply because SBD are pretty good lifts to develop overall strength, as is the press. That's really where the association of 5/3/1 and powerlifting ends. It isn't remotely focused on maximising performance of singles for a short, specific period of time. It focuses on being overall strong and conditioned, period.

Although my knowledge of SS is limited, my impression is that 5/3/1 in fact does what SS purports to do, without the BS. It is a fine system to use to improve physical performance, and one that arguably can be used productively with no real end date in terms of effectiveness.

[AlanMackey]

I was under the impression that "basic" 5/3/1 meant the four barbell lifts without anything else.

That would be the Not Doing Jack Shit template. Which is a godsend when really pressed for time, but won’t work for very long.

[MarkKO]

I was under the impression that "basic" 5/3/1 meant the four barbell lifts without anything else.

That would be the Not Doing Jack Shit template. Which is a godsend when really pressed for time, but won’t work for very long.

I should have mentioned that. My bad.

[gtl]

Is that Sheiko thing a log app?

No. It's a program builder app. It's excellent. You get 4 free "sheiko AI" sessions. It'll scale intensity and volume up-front based on questionnaire input and then adjust real-time based on qualitative feedback after each set, etc. Try it. It's quite good. Better than spreadsheets for sure.

I'm intrigued. Do you know how long the workouts are?

[mgil]

Although my knowledge of SS is limited, my impression is that 5/3/1 in fact does what SS purports to do, without the BS. It is a fine system to use to improve physical performance, and one that arguably can be used productively with no real end date in terms of effectiveness.

This is pretty accurate, since 531 has some sort of feedback mechanism and is designed to keep you from going at 100% load for singles. It’s a decent method of integrating situational capacity into a regulation scheme. It’s not quite RPE, where you’re doing “in situ” autoregulation, rather building those small 3-4 week blocks with a reasonably tempered expectation.

I also think there are other clever things one could do with 531, like doing waves of BBB, FSL, and other stuff on a weekly basis.

[Hanley]

Is that Sheiko thing a log app?

No. It's a program builder app. It's excellent. You get 4 free "sheiko AI" sessions. It'll scale intensity and volume up-front based on questionnaire input and then adjust real-time based on qualitative feedback after each set, etc. Try it. It's quite good. Better than spreadsheets for sure.

I'm intrigued. Do you know how long the workouts are?

You decide. You can do anything from a one lift a day type format to full SBD (or variations) + accessories. Super flexible.

[CaptainAwesome]

No, but it's an understandable interpretation.

Over the years many iterations of 5/3/1 have emerged. You had the first book, which just gave a few assistance templates: Boring But Big, Triumvirate, Periodisation Bible and a couple of others. IMO still the best book. Then came Beyond 5/3/1 which introduced Joker sets (great in theory but mostly highly detrimental in practice), First Set Last, 5s Pro, 3/5/1 and Beyond itself (which I've used and is good but requires a degree of experience to run that the other iterations don't). More recently 5/3/1 Forever came out, which I haven't read. My understanding based on what I've been told by people who have read it and who I find to be competent in this area is that it is very good, and develops much further on what Wendler now views as the various ideal ways to run 5/3/1 for various applications.

The real advantage 5/3/1 has over many similar systems is that is absolutely isn't a powerlifting system. At all. It uses squat, bench and deadlift and adds pressing simply because SBD are pretty good lifts to develop overall strength, as is the press. That's really where the association of 5/3/1 and powerlifting ends. It isn't remotely focused on maximising performance of singles for a short, specific period of time. It focuses on being overall strong and conditioned, period.

Although my knowledge of SS is limited, my impression is that 5/3/1 in fact does what SS purports to do, without the BS. It is a fine system to use to improve physical performance, and one that arguably can be used productively with no real end date in terms of effectiveness.

SS is really only supposed to be a starter program. When used right, you run it out until a lift stops working. You have a few options to try and re-engage some progress, but every one of them I have tried with myself and others did not last that long. Realistically, I think you should probably change a lift away from the SS program once you hit a hard grind for the first time, and not take the advice of blowing up rest times to anything above 5 minutes. Bulking up seems to prolong the progress, and if you're young and willing to gain a bunch of weight, I'd say go for it. It's maligned I think because of a lot of the hyperbolic stuff surrounding it, but it does work for what it is supposed to do, getting people started. Also seems to work real well for getting restarted after a long layoff from training.

Which 5/3/1 book would you recommend? I took a look at Wendler's site after the book was recommended and there were so many books listed there. Buying all of them is not in the cards for me, especially not right now. But I could definitely throw money down on one.

[augeleven]

5/3/1 Forever is solid. It pretty much contains all of his programming ideas in some form or the other. That being said, Wendler needed a better editor for all of his books. Any questions that you have about the programs or their underpinning philosophy have been discussed ad nauseum on Wendler’s t-nation forum, r/weightroom and r/531discussion. Search your questions there and there are plenty of answers.
Also check out Mythicalstrength’s blog. He gets the idea of making 531 work for his needs.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

5/3/1 Forever is solid. It pretty much contains all of his programming ideas in some form or the other. That being said, Wendler needed a better editor for all of his books. Any questions that you have about the programs or their underpinning philosophy have been discussed ad nauseum on Wendler’s t-nation forum, r/weightroom and r/531discussion. Search your questions there and there are plenty of answers.
Also check out Mythicalstrength’s blog. He gets the idea of making 531 work for his needs.

Mythicalstrength's blog is fantastic, he really shows how 531 can be implemented in the real world, in particular those two posts are really useful, I think

https://mythicalstrength.blogspot.com/2 ... fcake.html
https://mythicalstrength.blogspot.com/2 ... olith.html

Wendler's a great, strong, guy but I think he's really bad at putting his ideas in words, so it's always helpful to have other sources besides his books.

[MarkKO]

No, but it's an understandable interpretation.

Over the years many iterations of 5/3/1 have emerged. You had the first book, which just gave a few assistance templates: Boring But Big, Triumvirate, Periodisation Bible and a couple of others. IMO still the best book. Then came Beyond 5/3/1 which introduced Joker sets (great in theory but mostly highly detrimental in practice), First Set Last, 5s Pro, 3/5/1 and Beyond itself (which I've used and is good but requires a degree of experience to run that the other iterations don't). More recently 5/3/1 Forever came out, which I haven't read. My understanding based on what I've been told by people who have read it and who I find to be competent in this area is that it is very good, and develops much further on what Wendler now views as the various ideal ways to run 5/3/1 for various applications.

The real advantage 5/3/1 has over many similar systems is that is absolutely isn't a powerlifting system. At all. It uses squat, bench and deadlift and adds pressing simply because SBD are pretty good lifts to develop overall strength, as is the press. That's really where the association of 5/3/1 and powerlifting ends. It isn't remotely focused on maximising performance of singles for a short, specific period of time. It focuses on being overall strong and conditioned, period.

Although my knowledge of SS is limited, my impression is that 5/3/1 in fact does what SS purports to do, without the BS. It is a fine system to use to improve physical performance, and one that arguably can be used productively with no real end date in terms of effectiveness.

SS is really only supposed to be a starter program. When used right, you run it out until a lift stops working. You have a few options to try and re-engage some progress, but every one of them I have tried with myself and others did not last that long. Realistically, I think you should probably change a lift away from the SS program once you hit a hard grind for the first time, and not take the advice of blowing up rest times to anything above 5 minutes. Bulking up seems to prolong the progress, and if you're young and willing to gain a bunch of weight, I'd say go for it. It's maligned I think because of a lot of the hyperbolic stuff surrounding it, but it does work for what it is supposed to do, getting people started. Also seems to work real well for getting restarted after a long layoff from training.

Which 5/3/1 book would you recommend? I took a look at Wendler's site after the book was recommended and there were so many books listed there. Buying all of them is not in the cards for me, especially not right now. But I could definitely throw money down on one.

The first book. Absolutely. Then after a while maybe jump to Forever 5/3/1.