Program recommendations?

[MarkKO]

5/3/1 Forever is solid. It pretty much contains all of his programming ideas in some form or the other. That being said, Wendler needed a better editor for all of his books. Any questions that you have about the programs or their underpinning philosophy have been discussed ad nauseum on Wendler’s t-nation forum, r/weightroom and r/531discussion. Search your questions there and there are plenty of answers.
Also check out Mythicalstrength’s blog. He gets the idea of making 531 work for his needs.

Mythicalstrength's blog is fantastic, he really shows how 531 can be implemented in the real world, in particular those two posts are really useful, I think

https://mythicalstrength.blogspot.com/2 ... fcake.html
https://mythicalstrength.blogspot.com/2 ... olith.html

Wendler's a great, strong, guy but I think he's really bad at putting his ideas in words, so it's always helpful to have other sources besides his books.

That's one reason I prefer the original book to Beyond, although I haven't read Forever so I might like that better for all I know.

The first book is short, and relatively to the point. Wendler gets the idea across pretty well in that one. Forever less so.

[Adams]

5/3/1 Forever is solid. It pretty much contains all of his programming ideas in some form or the other. That being said, Wendler needed a better editor for all of his books. Any questions that you have about the programs or their underpinning philosophy have been discussed ad nauseum on Wendler’s t-nation forum, r/weightroom and r/531discussion. Search your questions there and there are plenty of answers.
Also check out Mythicalstrength’s blog. He gets the idea of making 531 work for his needs.

Mythicalstrength's blog is fantastic, he really shows how 531 can be implemented in the real world, in particular those two posts are really useful, I think

https://mythicalstrength.blogspot.com/2 ... fcake.html
https://mythicalstrength.blogspot.com/2 ... olith.html

Wendler's a great, strong, guy but I think he's really bad at putting his ideas in words, so it's always helpful to have other sources besides his books.

That's one reason I prefer the original book to Beyond, although I haven't read Forever so I might like that better for all I know.

The first book is short, and relatively to the point. Wendler gets the idea across pretty well in that one. Forever less so.

Forever is all over the place. From what you said I doubt you would like it. I looked at it once and never bothered with it again.

[gtl]

Is that Sheiko thing a log app?

No. It's a program builder app. It's excellent. You get 4 free "sheiko AI" sessions. It'll scale intensity and volume up-front based on questionnaire input and then adjust real-time based on qualitative feedback after each set, etc. Try it. It's quite good. Better than spreadsheets for sure.

I'm intrigued. Do you know how long the workouts are?

You decide. You can do anything from a one lift a day type format to full SBD (or variations) + accessories. Super flexible.

I think I'm going to give this a run. My e1rms are in the shitter right now and I have made no progress in the last 6 months.

[Hanley]

Is that Sheiko thing a log app?

No. It's a program builder app. It's excellent. You get 4 free "sheiko AI" sessions. It'll scale intensity and volume up-front based on questionnaire input and then adjust real-time based on qualitative feedback after each set, etc. Try it. It's quite good. Better than spreadsheets for sure.

I'm intrigued. Do you know how long the workouts are?

You decide. You can do anything from a one lift a day type format to full SBD (or variations) + accessories. Super flexible.

I think I'm going to give this a run. My e1rms are in the shitter right now and I have made no progress in the last 6 months.

I might use it myself. I downloaded it and it's better than I remember.

[MarkKO]

5/3/1 Forever is solid. It pretty much contains all of his programming ideas in some form or the other. That being said, Wendler needed a better editor for all of his books. Any questions that you have about the programs or their underpinning philosophy have been discussed ad nauseum on Wendler’s t-nation forum, r/weightroom and r/531discussion. Search your questions there and there are plenty of answers.
Also check out Mythicalstrength’s blog. He gets the idea of making 531 work for his needs.

Mythicalstrength's blog is fantastic, he really shows how 531 can be implemented in the real world, in particular those two posts are really useful, I think

https://mythicalstrength.blogspot.com/2 ... fcake.html
https://mythicalstrength.blogspot.com/2 ... olith.html

Wendler's a great, strong, guy but I think he's really bad at putting his ideas in words, so it's always helpful to have other sources besides his books.

That's one reason I prefer the original book to Beyond, although I haven't read Forever so I might like that better for all I know.

The first book is short, and relatively to the point. Wendler gets the idea across pretty well in that one. Forever less so.

Forever is all over the place. From what you said I doubt you would like it. I looked at it once and never bothered with it again.

I get the impression 5/3/1 became bigger than Wendler expected and it kind of got unwieldy after a while. All the stuff I've heard about Forever and the leader/anchor seems like it complicated everything way beyond what was initially intended with the system.

[asdf]

5/3/1 got unwieldy after a while.

Ironic, since 5/3/1 was really just a much-simplified version of Bigger, Faster, Stronger -- with percentages.

[MarkKO]

5/3/1 got unwieldy after a while.

Ironic, since 5/3/1 was really just a much-simplified version of Bigger, Faster, Stronger -- with percentages.

These things happen. I don't know how close I am to correct, but my understanding is that a lot of the iterations of 5/3/1 in Forever and even in Beyond originate from modifications other people made to 5/3/1 and then told Wendler about. He then, being a sensible person who listens to others, included them and developed them as well. Over time the system's iterations proliferated and we arrive at the situation as it currently is.

I have no doubt every version works well for the purpose it is intended for. It just complicates matters to have so many versions.

[houzi]

All this discussion of 531 makes me very much want to jump back into it again. No RPE, a few percentages, you know what weights you will hit today, what weights you will hit next week. Finish the 3 week wave, add a little bit more weight and continue.
I did the Boring But Big template as my first real program i ever followed. My squat went from 130-140kg to 170kg and deadlift from 170-180kg up to 215kg (horrific form) in the space of about 11 months.
Perhaps ill hop back on 531 next year....

[CaptainAwesome]

5/3/1 was always something I looked at and thought "could be good for later, when I need to progress less aggressively". I do wonder about certain aspects of it though. Main lift volume is a lot lower than what I'm used to (unless you do something like boring but big). Does that mean a good regimen of assistance work is absolutely critical?

I think for now, I'll stick to what I'm doing since I just started it. If I can beat the intensity 5s from the last time around, I will probably stick with it. That seems like a good "is this working?" metric. Let's me pull the plug without getting too deep into it if I find things are going poorly.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

5/3/1 was always something I looked at and thought "could be good for later, when I need to progress less aggressively". I do wonder about certain aspects of it though. Main lift volume is a lot lower than what I'm used to (unless you do something like boring but big). Does that mean a good regimen of assistance work is absolutely critical?

I think for now, I'll stick to what I'm doing since I just started it. If I can beat the intensity 5s from the last time around, I will probably stick with it. That seems like a good "is this working?" metric. Let's me pull the plug without getting too deep into it if I find things are going poorly.

Assistance is of course critical. As I explained, each session after your main lift and the supplemental work, you'll do 50 reps of a pushing exercise for assistance. That's 200 reps a week.

[MarkKO]

5/3/1 was always something I looked at and thought "could be good for later, when I need to progress less aggressively". I do wonder about certain aspects of it though. Main lift volume is a lot lower than what I'm used to (unless you do something like boring but big). Does that mean a good regimen of assistance work is absolutely critical?

I think for now, I'll stick to what I'm doing since I just started it. If I can beat the intensity 5s from the last time around, I will probably stick with it. That seems like a good "is this working?" metric. Let's me pull the plug without getting too deep into it if I find things are going poorly.

In most cases assistance volume should be significantly higher compared to main lift volume, precisely because it is critical. Main lift volume doesn't usually need to be particularly high. Somewhere between 20 and 35 working reps per session is generally a pretty good ballpark.

[asdf]

a lot of the iterations of 5/3/1 in Forever and even in Beyond

I've only read the original book, shortly after it came out. My wife still runs the OG version when she needs a minimalist strength program.

Main lift volume is a lot lower than what I'm used to (unless you do something like boring but big). Does that mean a good regimen of assistance work is absolutely critical?

I can't imagine making much progress without a lot of assistance work. But the low-volume base program does pair well with Olympic lifting, CrossFit metcons, track work, long trail runs, etc.

[CaptainAwesome]

5/3/1 was always something I looked at and thought "could be good for later, when I need to progress less aggressively". I do wonder about certain aspects of it though. Main lift volume is a lot lower than what I'm used to (unless you do something like boring but big). Does that mean a good regimen of assistance work is absolutely critical?

I think for now, I'll stick to what I'm doing since I just started it. If I can beat the intensity 5s from the last time around, I will probably stick with it. That seems like a good "is this working?" metric. Let's me pull the plug without getting too deep into it if I find things are going poorly.

In most cases assistance volume should be significantly higher compared to main lift volume, precisely because it is critical. Main lift volume doesn't usually need to be particularly high. Somewhere between 20 and 35 working reps per session is generally a pretty good ballpark.

Well I ask because the basic program is 15 reps total per lift in one week, then 9 in weeks 2 and 3. Not counting AMRAPs, of course.

[51M0N]

My view is that 531 is all about the assistance work as the main driver of volume.

I think that Greg's Stronger by Science reps to failure program is a much easier approach than 531 as it uses a similar approach but the volume is built into the program so assistance work isn't as required.

[MarkKO]

5/3/1 was always something I looked at and thought "could be good for later, when I need to progress less aggressively". I do wonder about certain aspects of it though. Main lift volume is a lot lower than what I'm used to (unless you do something like boring but big). Does that mean a good regimen of assistance work is absolutely critical?

I think for now, I'll stick to what I'm doing since I just started it. If I can beat the intensity 5s from the last time around, I will probably stick with it. That seems like a good "is this working?" metric. Let's me pull the plug without getting too deep into it if I find things are going poorly.

In most cases assistance volume should be significantly higher compared to main lift volume, precisely because it is critical. Main lift volume doesn't usually need to be particularly high. Somewhere between 20 and 35 working reps per session is generally a pretty good ballpark.

Well I ask because the basic program is 15 reps total per lift in one week, then 9 in weeks 2 and 3. Not counting AMRAPs, of course.

Well, the ether just ate my reply.

It's a reasonable question.

In the first book, Wendler is pretty emphatic about pushing that top set for a rep PR every week, and with a TM set correctly you'll be hitting 10+ reps for a while which gets you into that 20-35 bracket.

In Beyond, he introduced 5s Pro, where you do 3x5 every week instead of just week one. He also introduced First Set Last, which if I recall you can run most any way you like but usually it's something like 3x5 or 5x5. I understand that 5s Pro with First Set Last has emerged as one of the more effective variations. You still need to do assistance, of course.

[MarkKO]

My view is that 531 is all about the assistance work as the main driver of volume.

I think that Greg's Stronger by Science reps to failure program is a much easier approach than 531 as it uses a similar approach but the volume is built into the program so assistance work isn't as required.

The only issue with that is bar a select few people, main lifts and variations don't tend to be particularly good at building muscle or addressing weakness compared to more targeted assistance work.

[ChasingCurls69]

5/3/1 was always something I looked at and thought "could be good for later, when I need to progress less aggressively". I do wonder about certain aspects of it though. Main lift volume is a lot lower than what I'm used to (unless you do something like boring but big). Does that mean a good regimen of assistance work is absolutely critical?

I think for now, I'll stick to what I'm doing since I just started it. If I can beat the intensity 5s from the last time around, I will probably stick with it. That seems like a good "is this working?" metric. Let's me pull the plug without getting too deep into it if I find things are going poorly.

In most cases assistance volume should be significantly higher compared to main lift volume, precisely because it is critical. Main lift volume doesn't usually need to be particularly high. Somewhere between 20 and 35 working reps per session is generally a pretty good ballpark.

Well I ask because the basic program is 15 reps total per lift in one week, then 9 in weeks 2 and 3. Not counting AMRAPs, of course.

Yeah, this kind of gets at the main issue with 5/3/1 and why there are so many versions of it. That's why I've been generally uninterested in the various modifications that have been made when at that point I can just use another format and adjust the program variables myself.

SBS is going to be way better in this regard if you go that route after this next round of TM.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Stronger By Science 2.0 is a "plug and play" program, unlike 531. This can be a positive point if you are unsure about what you are doing.

[wiigelec]

A couple TM modifications I’ve seen:

1) change up reps and exercises - for example on volume days do 3x8 of pause squat, RDL, and close grip/incline bench

2) spread volume over the week - for example add backoffs to intensity day: top set + 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps @ 70-75%

[SnakePlissken]

A couple TM modifications I’ve seen:

1) change up reps and exercises - for example on volume days do 3x8 of pause squat, RDL, and close grip/incline bench

2) spread volume over the week - for example add backoffs to intensity day: top set + 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps @ 70-75%

Spreading the volume is pretty much Bill Starr's progression too. Always thought of trying it if I ever do an HLM setup again.
Goes something like...
Monday 5x5 ascending sets to a Top set (maybe an RPE 8-9)
Wednesday 5x5 ascending with your top set being the 3rd set from Monday
Friday 4x5 ascending with your top set being the 4th set from Monday, plus a top triple at 5-10lb heavier than your Top set Monday