Program recommendations?

[Hardartery]

Given all the BBM talk of no bad exercises, and talk recently about how BTN press is safe so long as you're mobile enough, I decided to start with the bar and just do easy sets and gradually add weight. Figured that would probably gradually help give the mobility required for handling some challenging weights (and I don't know how you would even assess how much mobility you actually need, seems like a meme without any actual science behind it).

Anyways, a couple of weeks of btn press at just bar weights and slightly above and I snapped my shoulder up and still struggle with it. The negative reputation certainly lived up the to hype in my very limited experience.

Assessing mobility is actually not that hard. I don't have much of it on my left shoulder, years of hypercalcemia have left me two bone spurs there and some mild arthritis. I now require a ton of warmup to achieve a rack psition in the front, and I am doing stretches and mobility stuff from a PT as well as from research to try and help the situation. I can do BTN without issue once everything is stretched out, and I use the bar in the stretching process. The exercise in and of itself is fine and has only ever done good things for me, and I take the bar down to the traps, I don't do that silly stopping at the ears thing. Can you do a dislocation with a broom handle? How about an Overhead Squat without the bar pitching forward?

[perman]

I mean, I think my shoulder mobility is medium?

I can do shoulder dislocations with a wide enough grip. I can do front squats with a decent-ish rack position, I can do oh squats with low weights, but it's definitely mobility that's holding the weights down.

I think it's very diffuse what shoulder mobility is "good enough for btn press to be safe". It seems to me that if your shoulder mobility is excellent, it's probably safe, if it's shitty it's not safe, but that it totally depends in the middle.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I think that the doctrine of "no exercise is bad, as long as you dose them correctly" is only a half truth, in the sense that, OK sure, if you perform any exercise with a light enough load and for a few sets far away from failure, yeah the probability of injury is close to 0.

What they forget to consider is that the margin of error between "not enough" to "good enough, with low risk of injury" to "way too much, with substantially higher risk of injury than necessary" depends a lot on the exercise. For squats, deadlifts, behind the neck presses, and the likes the margin is a lot smaller than for other exercises. How many sets of pullups with atrocious technique can you tolerate ? Probably a lot of them (see Crossfit). How many RPE 10 sets of deadlifts with your lower back fully rounded can you tolerate ? It depends.

[DCR]

What they forget to consider is that the margin of error between "not enough" to "good enough, with low risk of injury" to "way too much, with substantially higher risk of injury than necessary" depends a lot on the exercise.

I think that’s exactly right.

[Hardartery]

I think that the doctrine of "no exercise is bad, as long as you dose them correctly" is only a half truth, in the sense that, OK sure, if you perform any exercise with a light enough load and for a few sets far away from failure, yeah the probability of injury is close to 0.

What they forget to consider is that the margin of error between "not enough" to "good enough, with low risk of injury" to "way too much, with substantially higher risk of injury than necessary" depends a lot on the exercise. For squats, deadlifts, behind the neck presses, and the likes the margin is a lot smaller than for other exercises. How many sets of pullups with atrocious technique can you tolerate ? Probably a lot of them (see Crossfit). How many RPE 10 sets of deadlifts with your lower back fully rounded can you tolerate ? It depends.

I honestly think some people are also just plain predisposed to injury. Like hernias, you get them or you don't - it's about structure of the muscle not about weights or exercises. Some guys should not do BTN because it will wreck something, other people can do them with impunity. Something about my structure makes me injury resistent, even going to failure/RPE all of it. I am sure I pay for that in some way, but I'm okay with that. Other guys get hurt with even slight form loss or pushing the RPE, or from not warming up/stretching enough before hand. They need to be more careful. Plus, I also believe some guys can't tell the difference between a little pain and actual injury. Sometimes lifting hurts a little when you push it, but you didn't actually injure anything (As evidenced by being totally fine with full ROM and strength shortly thereafter). Just soemthing I've been thinking lately, I'll probably be proven wrong at some point.

[ChasingCurls69]

I think that the doctrine of "no exercise is bad, as long as you dose them correctly" is only a half truth, in the sense that, OK sure, if you perform any exercise with a light enough load and for a few sets far away from failure, yeah the probability of injury is close to 0.

What they forget to consider is that the margin of error between "not enough" to "good enough, with low risk of injury" to "way too much, with substantially higher risk of injury than necessary" depends a lot on the exercise. For squats, deadlifts, behind the neck presses, and the likes the margin is a lot smaller than for other exercises. How many sets of pullups with atrocious technique can you tolerate ? Probably a lot of them (see Crossfit). How many RPE 10 sets of deadlifts with your lower back fully rounded can you tolerate ? It depends.

That still ultimately comes back to dosing appropriately, so I'm not sure it's a forgotten consideration. There's not really an explicit measure of how the margin differs between exercises, and it's already a subset of a small number of injuries per participation hours.

[asdf]

Bad exercises are those that not infrequently produce catastrophic injury even when dosing *seems* appropriate AND for which similar exercises exist that have zero risk of the catastrophic injury in question. Examples:

- Bad exercise / potential catastrophic injury / viable alternative with zero risk

- Mixed-grip deadlift / biceps tendon rupture / Hook-grip or double-overhand with straps
- Rippetoe-style low-bar back squat / elbow tendonitis, adductor tears / high-bar back squat
- Rebounding box jumps / Achilles tendon rupture / step down after each rep
- High-rep kipping pull-ups / SLAP tears / non-kipping (strict) pull-ups

[Hardartery]

Bad exercises are those that not infrequently produce catastrophic injury even when dosing *seems* appropriate AND for which similar exercises exist that have zero risk of the catastrophic injury in question. Examples:

- Bad exercise / potential catastrophic injury / viable alternative with zero risk

- Mixed-grip deadlift / biceps tendon rupture / Hook-grip or double-overhand with straps
- Rippetoe-style low-bar back squat / elbow tendonitis, adductor tears / high-bar back squat
- Rebounding box jumps / Achilles tendon rupture / step down after each rep
- High-rep kipping pull-ups / SLAP tears / non-kipping (strict) pull-ups

I disagree with every single example. Hook grip has it's own injury possibility and frankly the number of biceps tears on D's is quite small relative to the number of lifters and lift attempts. It also has nothing to do with the grip, it has to do with form breakdown on maximal attempts which can appear in a variety of injuries that simply change with the manner of lifting. You are far more likely to injure a back or leg muscle while using straps as you are arguably permitting an overload that exceeds your actual current ability.
High bar squats can trigger knee tendonitis and pose no different risk for tears, of the adductor or otherwise, and Low Bar should never be attributed in any way to an idiot that was not the inventor.
If you can't drop off a box and rebound without hurting yourself, you have bigger issues.
Kipping is stupid, but there is no reason to believe even momentarily that it actually poses a greater risk inherently. Stupidity in performing an exercise makes it riskier, not how dynamic it is.

[asdf]

I'm not saying that the alternative exercises have no risks -- just that they completely eliminate the possibility of the specific *catastrophic* injury associated with the bad exercise. I've never heard of a single case in which someone...

- tore their biceps tendon deadlifting with a double overhead grip
- tore their Achilles when stepping down on box-jumps
- tore their adductor or developed elbow tendonitis when squatting high bar
- tore their labrum doing strict pull-ups

As to your comment about Rippetoe, I've addressed this before. The reason for the qualifier is because I'm talking about his very specific method of low-bar squatting, in which the stance is set specifically to induce a load on the adductors. I'm not talking about low-bar squatting in general.

[asdf]

High bar squats ... pose no different risk for tears, of the adductor or otherwise
...
If you can't drop off a box and rebound without hurting yourself, you have bigger issues.
...
there is no reason to believe even momentarily that [kipping] actually poses a greater risk inherently.

LOL. Okay man.

[Hardartery]

High bar squats ... pose no different risk for tears, of the adductor or otherwise
...
If you can't drop off a box and rebound without hurting yourself, you have bigger issues.
...
there is no reason to believe even momentarily that [kipping] actually poses a greater risk inherently.

LOL. Okay man.

What's your evidence behind your contention? You know a guy that X happened to?

[asdf]

What's your evidence behind your contention? You know a guy that X happened to?

I know (and know of) many guys and gals that X happened to doing exercise A, and I know zero guys and gals (literally zero) that X happened to when doing exercise B.

(One interesting exception is that I don't know of a single woman who tore her biceps tendon deadlifting, regardless of grip. Everything else is as I described: I know men and women who have suffered catastrophic injury doing A, but know of none who suffered the same injury doing B.)

Your experiences may be different. Mine are from forty years of training, twenty or so of in-person coaching, and twenty or so of being on the internet.

We've run across our differences before. I once expressed that in my experience -- meaning with myself and the athletes I've coached -- one can front squat much earlier after a major hamstring tear than back squat. You reported that in your experience there was no difference in hamstring tension when back squatting vs. front.

[Hardartery]

What's your evidence behind your contention? You know a guy that X happened to?

I know (and know of) many guys and gals that X happened to doing exercise A, and I know zero guys and gals (literally zero) that X happened to when doing exercise B.

(One interesting exception is that I don't know of a single woman who tore her biceps tendon deadlifting, regardless of grip. Everything else is as I described: I know men and women who have suffered catastrophic injury doing X, but know of none who suffered the same injury doing Y.)

Your experiences may be different. Mine are from forty years of training, twenty or so of in-person coaching, and twenty or so of being on the internet.

We've run across our differences before. I once expressed that in my experience -- meaning with myself and the athletes I've coached -- one can front squat much earlier after a major hamstring tear than back squat. You reported that in your experience there was no difference in hamstring tension when back squatting vs. front.

I have never had a major tear of anything, so I can't say what is faster to get back to. I have seen biceps tears, but never on a DL in person, and I have almost 40 years of lifting. 10 years competing in Strongman doing primarily Pro/Am or Platinum contests. Biceps tera on a DL are not going to happen with normal workset weights, unless there is a pre-existing tear that just gets finished off that way. The mixed grip isn't inherently bad or even the issue, it's the compensation for the failing grip on the supinated side that causes the stress that causes the tear. It's not the exercise, it's the breakdown of form. And I personally get tendonitis flare ups from high bar squats, they piss my quad tendon off quite quickly. I'm not alone there, I have known plenty of lifters over the years that get that as well.
Women also are more detail oriented and less likely to break form, IME. They willmiss the lift sooner than compensate in a way that causes injury. Testosterone levels may play a role in lack of injury as well, but I have no data to back that part up.

[asdf]

The mixed grip isn't inherently bad or even the issue

And yet if you don't use a mixed grip, you'll almost certainly never tear your biceps tendon deadlifting.

[Hardartery]

The mixed grip isn't inherently bad or even the issue

And yet if you don't use a mixed grip, you'll almost certainly never tear your biceps tendon deadlifting.

And if you do use a mixed grip, you will almost certainly not tear your biceps Deadlifting. It's a low risk event.

[asdf]

It's a low risk event.

Low risk of occurrence, perhaps. But typically unnecessary and very high cost when the risk materializes. Better to just avoid the movement and do the variation that completely eliminates the risk of catastrophe.

Going in circles now, so I'll stop.

[hector]

Bad exercises are those that not infrequently produce catastrophic injury even when dosing *seems* appropriate AND for which similar exercises exist that have zero risk of the catastrophic injury in question. Examples:

- Bad exercise / potential catastrophic injury / viable alternative with zero risk

- Mixed-grip deadlift / biceps tendon rupture / Hook-grip or double-overhand with straps
- Rippetoe-style low-bar back squat / elbow tendonitis, adductor tears / high-bar back squat
- Rebounding box jumps / Achilles tendon rupture / step down after each rep
- High-rep kipping pull-ups / SLAP tears / non-kipping (strict) pull-ups

I disagree with every single example. Hook grip has it's own injury possibility and frankly the number of biceps tears on D's is quite small relative to the number of lifters and lift attempts. It also has nothing to do with the grip, it has to do with form breakdown on maximal attempts which can appear in a variety of injuries that simply change with the manner of lifting. You are far more likely to injure a back or leg muscle while using straps as you are arguably permitting an overload that exceeds your actual current ability.
High bar squats can trigger knee tendonitis and pose no different risk for tears, of the adductor or otherwise, and Low Bar should never be attributed in any way to an idiot that was not the inventor.
If you can't drop off a box and rebound without hurting yourself, you have bigger issues.
Kipping is stupid, but there is no reason to believe even momentarily that it actually poses a greater risk inherently. Stupidity in performing an exercise makes it riskier, not how dynamic it is.

Few years after I stopped crossfit, several of the people I talked to who still went had slap tear shoulder stuff.
It made sense to me that the Kipling pull-ups were at fault.
Maybe it was something else.

[JohnHelton]

These were brutal on my shoulders.

[broseph]

Regarding the Crossfit/kipping shoulder injury stuff; I've heard from coaches that the reason people get injured with the movement is because they're not strong enough. They teach that you should be able to do strict pullups before attempting kipping.

For those with experience coaching or knowing people who got hurt, does this track? Were the injured folks fairly strong or weak?

Sorry if this is too off topic for the thread.

[asdf]

Were the injured folks fairly strong or weak?

Good question. Everyone I know personally who suffered a SLAP tear could do strict pull-ups, no problem. But maybe that's too low a strength bar to minimize risk significantly.