Useful assistance for squats?

[CaptainAwesome]

I've been trying to play around and find things that I can use to add volume onto the squatting muscles. I tried using the leg press for it last week, but that has turned out to be a terrible mistake. I'm thinking I need stuff that creates significant challenge at lighter weights, so it doesn't impose significant additional recovery demand. I'm doing that for my upper body stuff and it seems to be going great. As my weights have been going up my RPEs actually seem to have been sliding backward a bit, which I'll take as a sign of good prgoress. It's the low body that's driving me nuts, especially the lower back, and that fucking knee problem.

[mouse]

Whatchya tried so far?

[KOTJ]

Why was the leg press a terrible mistake?

[JohnHelton]

I've been trying to play around and find things that I can use to add volume onto the squatting muscles. I tried using the leg press for it last week, but that has turned out to be a terrible mistake. I'm thinking I need stuff that creates significant challenge at lighter weights, so it doesn't impose significant additional recovery demand. I'm doing that for my upper body stuff and it seems to be going great. As my weights have been going up my RPEs actually seem to have been sliding backward a bit, which I'll take as a sign of good prgoress. It's the low body that's driving me nuts, especially the lower back, and that fucking knee problem.

Leg press can be great, but you may have pushed it too hard the first time, especially if you used higher reps than you are use to. That can cause serious DOMS. I get crazy DOMS from squatting even light weight with higher reps (because I almost never do it). Leg press is useful for working the quads and glutes while take load off the spine. Belt squats do the same thing. Both are a bit better than doing the combination of leg curls and extensions.

[CaptainAwesome]

I think the leg press ended up messing with my low back because it had to bend a bit at the bottom to achieve depth. I was trying this goofy ramp-up and ramp-down setup I read in an article. Add 25s, then swap the 25s with 45s, repeat. Each is done for a set of 10 until you can't do another jump up in weight. I got up to four 45s for a set of 10 before I went back down again. I was sore for a few days, but this was last wednesday. Today I'm still not back to anything close to full strength, and my low back was especially weak and unstable during my workout.

[mgil]

I think the leg press ended up messing with my low back because it had to bend a bit at the bottom to achieve depth. I was trying this goofy ramp-up and ramp-down setup I read in an article. Add 25s, then swap the 25s with 45s, repeat. Each is done for a set of 10 until you can't do another jump up in weight. I got up to four 45s for a set of 10 before I went back down again. I was sore for a few days, but this was last wednesday. Today I'm still not back to anything close to full strength, and my low back was especially weak and unstable during my workout.

This was the mistake. Not the machine.

Leg press, extensions, curls can all support squats fine.

If you have a hard-on for using the barbell, then do light front squats, trap bar deadlifts, and/or sumo pulls.

ETA:

Split squats, goblet squats, step ups, etc…

This isn’t hard.

[KOTJ]

Yeah, definitely not using the leg press correctly.

[CaptainAwesome]

Yeah, definitely not using the leg press correctly.

The seat backing might have needed to be lower, I don't know how much lower it would've been able to go on that machine though.

[ChasingCurls69]

I think the leg press ended up messing with my low back because it had to bend a bit at the bottom to achieve depth. I was trying this goofy ramp-up and ramp-down setup I read in an article. Add 25s, then swap the 25s with 45s, repeat. Each is done for a set of 10 until you can't do another jump up in weight. I got up to four 45s for a set of 10 before I went back down again. I was sore for a few days, but this was last wednesday. Today I'm still not back to anything close to full strength, and my low back was especially weak and unstable during my workout.

This was the mistake. Not the machine.

Leg press, extensions, curls can all support squats fine.

If you have a hard-on for using the barbell, then do light front squats, trap bar deadlifts, and/or sumo pulls.

ETA:

Split squats, goblet squats, step ups, etc…

This isn’t hard.

Agreed with this. You could get away with 2-3 sets of 10-12 at this point based on your programming history from the other thread, and do it at the end of the workout so you don't need as many warm up sets (or any at all; I just raw doge my last working set in the next leg press workout, and if the RPE is low I add weight).

[CaptainAwesome]

I think the leg press ended up messing with my low back because it had to bend a bit at the bottom to achieve depth. I was trying this goofy ramp-up and ramp-down setup I read in an article. Add 25s, then swap the 25s with 45s, repeat. Each is done for a set of 10 until you can't do another jump up in weight. I got up to four 45s for a set of 10 before I went back down again. I was sore for a few days, but this was last wednesday. Today I'm still not back to anything close to full strength, and my low back was especially weak and unstable during my workout.

This was the mistake. Not the machine.

Leg press, extensions, curls can all support squats fine.

If you have a hard-on for using the barbell, then do light front squats, trap bar deadlifts, and/or sumo pulls.

ETA:

Split squats, goblet squats, step ups, etc…

This isn’t hard.

Agreed with this. You could get away with 2-3 sets of 10-12 at this point based on your programming history from the other thread, and do it at the end of the workout so you don't need as many warm up sets (or any at all; I just raw doge my last working set in the next leg press workout, and if the RPE is low I add weight).

I don't know, I think I'll try curls+extensions for my next one. I'll bet those won't cause lasting problems into the next week. It's hard to pick these things out, there's so many opinions when it comes to leg work out there, a lot of "x don't have good carryover to the squat" type opinions floating around.

[Allentown]

Squats have good carryover to squats.

I like hack squats for my quad pump.

[janoycresva]

I've been trying to play around and find things that I can use to add volume onto the squatting muscles. I tried using the leg press for it last week, but that has turned out to be a terrible mistake. I'm thinking I need stuff that creates significant challenge at lighter weights, so it doesn't impose significant additional recovery demand. I'm doing that for my upper body stuff and it seems to be going great. As my weights have been going up my RPEs actually seem to have been sliding backward a bit, which I'll take as a sign of good prgoress. It's the low body that's driving me nuts, especially the lower back, and that fucking knee problem.

Try belt squats for sets of 12-15, or even sets of 15-20. I find them really easy in a systemic sense (like, even if I go to a true @ 10, I am not breathing super heavy afterwards) but they absolutely fuck my quads/legs in general up like nothing else I've felt before.

[DCR]

@CaptainAwesome, grain of salt opinion because my squat is trash, but, rather than looking for squat assistance generally, you might consider choosing something specific to whatever’s holding you back. Personally, I’ve never missed a squat in my life due to weak legs - it’s always my upper back caving - so e.g. leg press would be a waste of time for me.

If you believe that your weak point is in fact your quads, agree with @Allentown that some quad focused squat movement would be best, and would do them bodybuilder style.

[ChasingCurls69]

I think the leg press ended up messing with my low back because it had to bend a bit at the bottom to achieve depth. I was trying this goofy ramp-up and ramp-down setup I read in an article. Add 25s, then swap the 25s with 45s, repeat. Each is done for a set of 10 until you can't do another jump up in weight. I got up to four 45s for a set of 10 before I went back down again. I was sore for a few days, but this was last wednesday. Today I'm still not back to anything close to full strength, and my low back was especially weak and unstable during my workout.

This was the mistake. Not the machine.

Leg press, extensions, curls can all support squats fine.

If you have a hard-on for using the barbell, then do light front squats, trap bar deadlifts, and/or sumo pulls.

ETA:

Split squats, goblet squats, step ups, etc…

This isn’t hard.

Agreed with this. You could get away with 2-3 sets of 10-12 at this point based on your programming history from the other thread, and do it at the end of the workout so you don't need as many warm up sets (or any at all; I just raw doge my last working set in the next leg press workout, and if the RPE is low I add weight).

I don't know, I think I'll try curls+extensions for my next one. I'll bet those won't cause lasting problems into the next week. It's hard to pick these things out, there's so many opinions when it comes to leg work out there, a lot of "x don't have good carryover to the squat" type opinions floating around.

You could also do that; it's a lot harder to fuck up the "dosing" of isolation movements like that compared to something like the leg press. But you did a fuck ton of leg press volume the first day, like 60+ reps, when before this you might've been doing 45~ reps of squats in a week.

[CaptainAwesome]

I think the leg press ended up messing with my low back because it had to bend a bit at the bottom to achieve depth. I was trying this goofy ramp-up and ramp-down setup I read in an article. Add 25s, then swap the 25s with 45s, repeat. Each is done for a set of 10 until you can't do another jump up in weight. I got up to four 45s for a set of 10 before I went back down again. I was sore for a few days, but this was last wednesday. Today I'm still not back to anything close to full strength, and my low back was especially weak and unstable during my workout.

This was the mistake. Not the machine.

Leg press, extensions, curls can all support squats fine.

If you have a hard-on for using the barbell, then do light front squats, trap bar deadlifts, and/or sumo pulls.

ETA:

Split squats, goblet squats, step ups, etc…

This isn’t hard.

Agreed with this. You could get away with 2-3 sets of 10-12 at this point based on your programming history from the other thread, and do it at the end of the workout so you don't need as many warm up sets (or any at all; I just raw doge my last working set in the next leg press workout, and if the RPE is low I add weight).

I don't know, I think I'll try curls+extensions for my next one. I'll bet those won't cause lasting problems into the next week. It's hard to pick these things out, there's so many opinions when it comes to leg work out there, a lot of "x don't have good carryover to the squat" type opinions floating around.

You could also do that; it's a lot harder to fuck up the "dosing" of isolation movements like that compared to something like the leg press. But you did a fuck ton of leg press volume the first day, like 60+ reps, when before this you might've been doing 45~ reps of squats in a week.

You could very well be right. I kind of need to break out of the old mindset where I only view the really hard reps as stuff that affects recovery.

[SnakePlissken]

Just my 2 cents from experience, but when I started doing Belt Squats with a landmine I never felt it in my quads and realized I was just using my hips to lift the bar and after recording myself I realized since I'm a pretty hip dominant squatter that my knees never really tracked forward. Now when I do Belt Squats (or front/HB squats) I keep my knees forward as long as I can before letting them track back. They were much harder at first, but my quads grew and I was able to hit lower depth and feel more secure in the hole on all my squats as a result.

As an edit: I actually still use 90% of the Rippetoe LB squat ques. It seems to work well since I have long legs and a short torso, but it's easy to fall into the habit of relying on strong hips to squat heavy. Coming from that universe I'm sure there's some room for improvement in keeping your knees forward to keep your quads in the movement.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@CaptainAwesome Regarding the "transfert" (or lackthereof) to the squat, what are you trying to do with your assistance ?

- if you are just trying to increase leg muscle size, then anything that works your leg muscle with a big stretch and a good pump will do: leg press, lunges, belt squats, front squats, smith machine squats (very very underrated) etc.
- if you are trying to increase movement proficiency then you need close variants to the squat that address your deficiencies: pause squat, pin squat etc.

More generally, how does your squat look like when you are approaching a 1RM ? Do you have a "chest fall" ? Are you getting folded over ? Is your bar path not very stable ? etc. Those can help you figure out the kind of assistance you need (for instance if you have a "chest fall" you probably need to stengthen the quads etc.).

Also, regarding your experience with the leg press, you have essentially realized that the leg press (and most good machines) enable you to get a much better stimulus to the muscle without so much central fatigue (like you get from the squat, because of the spinal loading), so in that sense the leg press is "too good". Of course the caveat is that by doing much more volume that you are used to, you probably got some massive soreness. You can start small (say three ramping sets 10@6 10@7 10@8) and then add sets as your work capacity increases.

[CaptainAwesome]

@CaptainAwesome Regarding the "transfert" (or lackthereof) to the squat, what are you trying to do with your assistance ?
More generally, how does your squat look like when you are approaching a 1RM ? Do you have a "chest fall" ? Are you getting folded over ? Is your bar path not very stable ? etc. Those can help you figure out the kind of assistance you need (for instance if you have a "chest fall" you probably need to stengthen the quads etc.).

Not sure what you mean by "chest fall", but "folded over" might be accurate. I haven't actually taken a squat set to failure in a long time, but when it starts to get bad the back angle closes up more and more out of the bottom. I can feel it. Usually I actually have to pick up my chest hard just to keep the bar from rolling up. I know I have weaker quads now just seeing how muscles have changed in size from lifting. My quadriceps have not really grown, but the hamstrings and glutes sure have. I can't even kneel on the floor and have my heels touch my ass. The undersides of the legs have just gotten so thick at this point that they prevent the knee from closing up all the way. By "chest fall", are you talking about this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oETiV9c8PW4

It does line up. Another way I know for sure that the posterior chain has vastly outpaced my quadriceps is comparing how I used to be able to do more on a leg extension than a leg curl before I started seriously training. Now my leg curl actually can outperform my leg extension. He says this folding up phenomenon is the body naturally trying to shift load onto the stronger posterior chain because it knows the quads can't handle their end.

[dw]

@CaptainAwesome Regarding the "transfert" (or lackthereof) to the squat, what are you trying to do with your assistance ?
More generally, how does your squat look like when you are approaching a 1RM ? Do you have a "chest fall" ? Are you getting folded over ? Is your bar path not very stable ? etc. Those can help you figure out the kind of assistance you need (for instance if you have a "chest fall" you probably need to stengthen the quads etc.).

Not sure what you mean by "chest fall", but "folded over" might be accurate. I haven't actually taken a squat set to failure in a long time, but when it starts to get bad the back angle closes up more and more out of the bottom. I can feel it. Usually I actually have to pick up my chest hard just to keep the bar from rolling up I know I have weaker quads now just seeing how muscles have changed in size from lifting. My quadriceps have not really grown, but the hamstrings and glutes sure have. I can't even kneel on the floor and have my heels touch my ass. The undersides of the legs have just gotten so thick at this point that they prevent the knee from closing up all the way. By "chest fall", are you talking about this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oETiV9c8PW4

It does line up. Another way I know for sure that the posterior chain has vastly outpaced my quadriceps is comparing how I used to be able to do more on a leg extension than a leg curl before I started seriously training. Now my leg curl actually can outperform my leg extension. He says this folding up phenomenon is the body naturally trying to shift load onto the stronger posterior chain because it knows the quads can't handle their end.

You need quad hypertrophy work. Common situation for people relying on LBBS for leg development.

Leg extensions are really good for this imo. Stuff like belt squats and hack squats are more squat specific but also less quads focused.

[hector]

@CaptainAwesome Regarding the "transfert" (or lackthereof) to the squat, what are you trying to do with your assistance ?
More generally, how does your squat look like when you are approaching a 1RM ? Do you have a "chest fall" ? Are you getting folded over ? Is your bar path not very stable ? etc. Those can help you figure out the kind of assistance you need (for instance if you have a "chest fall" you probably need to stengthen the quads etc.).

Not sure what you mean by "chest fall", but "folded over" might be accurate. I haven't actually taken a squat set to failure in a long time, but when it starts to get bad the back angle closes up more and more out of the bottom. I can feel it. Usually I actually have to pick up my chest hard just to keep the bar from rolling up I know I have weaker quads now just seeing how muscles have changed in size from lifting. My quadriceps have not really grown, but the hamstrings and glutes sure have. I can't even kneel on the floor and have my heels touch my ass. The undersides of the legs have just gotten so thick at this point that they prevent the knee from closing up all the way. By "chest fall", are you talking about this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oETiV9c8PW4

It does line up. Another way I know for sure that the posterior chain has vastly outpaced my quadriceps is comparing how I used to be able to do more on a leg extension than a leg curl before I started seriously training. Now my leg curl actually can outperform my leg extension. He says this folding up phenomenon is the body naturally trying to shift load onto the stronger posterior chain because it knows the quads can't handle their end.

You need quad hypertrophy work. Common situation for people relying on LBBS for leg development.

Leg extensions are really good for this imo. Stuff like belt squats and hack squats are more squat specific but also less quads focused.

I used to be in the same boat. No quad development, significant glute and Hamstring development. I found that front squats at the end of the session, 5 x 5 at a RPE 6.5 or 7 so that I could keep rest periods short, helped with quads quite a bit.

YMMV, there was probably a lot of low hanging fruit for me since my quads were so weak at the time.