Useful assistance for squats?

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@CaptainAwesome Regarding the "transfert" (or lackthereof) to the squat, what are you trying to do with your assistance ?
More generally, how does your squat look like when you are approaching a 1RM ? Do you have a "chest fall" ? Are you getting folded over ? Is your bar path not very stable ? etc. Those can help you figure out the kind of assistance you need (for instance if you have a "chest fall" you probably need to stengthen the quads etc.).

Not sure what you mean by "chest fall", but "folded over" might be accurate. I haven't actually taken a squat set to failure in a long time, but when it starts to get bad the back angle closes up more and more out of the bottom. I can feel it. Usually I actually have to pick up my chest hard just to keep the bar from rolling up. I know I have weaker quads now just seeing how muscles have changed in size from lifting. My quadriceps have not really grown, but the hamstrings and glutes sure have. I can't even kneel on the floor and have my heels touch my ass. The undersides of the legs have just gotten so thick at this point that they prevent the knee from closing up all the way. By "chest fall", are you talking about this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oETiV9c8PW4

It does line up. Another way I know for sure that the posterior chain has vastly outpaced my quadriceps is comparing how I used to be able to do more on a leg extension than a leg curl before I started seriously training. Now my leg curl actually can outperform my leg extension. He says this folding up phenomenon is the body naturally trying to shift load onto the stronger posterior chain because it knows the quads can't handle their end.

Exactly.

[CaptainAwesome]

I used to be in the same boat. No quad development, significant glute and Hamstring development. I found that front squats at the end of the session, 5 x 5 at a RPE 6.5 or 7 so that I could keep rest periods short, helped with quads quite a bit.

YMMV, there was probably a lot of low hanging fruit for me since my quads were so weak at the time.

I can't really do front squats, various aspects of anthropometry make them impossible without having to take the bar entirely into my hands. I've tried them as an option to bring the quads up but the front rack position is extremely awkward for me and can't be maintained as I go down into a squat.

[SnakePlissken]

I used to be in the same boat. No quad development, significant glute and Hamstring development. I found that front squats at the end of the session, 5 x 5 at a RPE 6.5 or 7 so that I could keep rest periods short, helped with quads quite a bit.

YMMV, there was probably a lot of low hanging fruit for me since my quads were so weak at the time.

I can't really do front squats, various aspects of anthropometry make them impossible without having to take the bar entirely into my hands. I've tried them as an option to bring the quads up but the front rack position is extremely awkward for me and can't be maintained as I go down into a squat.

I have long legs and arms (can't use front rack either) and a short torso and am not really "built for front squatting." If you try squatting with your hips you'll have to use your hands to hold it or dump the bar. When you squat HB or LB you can cheat by relying on your hips to hinge, but in a Front Squat that will make you dump the bar or have to use your arms and hands to hold it in front of you while making your chest fold over.

Being from the SS world, you're probably trying to front squat with your hips and not even realizing it. I thought FS's weren't for me either and realized they're just hard. I do cross arms with them and my cues are to look straight ahead at something fixed, hold my arms up to where it feels like my elbows are pointing at the horizon (this engages my upper back too) and to let my knees track over my toes so I have to use my quads. You also have to focus on keeping your upper back and core tight too or you'll fold and dump the bar. They're just not an easy lift. Just start with something light like 135 and add weight slowly over time.

[MarkKO]

I used to be in the same boat. No quad development, significant glute and Hamstring development. I found that front squats at the end of the session, 5 x 5 at a RPE 6.5 or 7 so that I could keep rest periods short, helped with quads quite a bit.

YMMV, there was probably a lot of low hanging fruit for me since my quads were so weak at the time.

I can't really do front squats, various aspects of anthropometry make them impossible without having to take the bar entirely into my hands. I've tried them as an option to bring the quads up but the front rack position is extremely awkward for me and can't be maintained as I go down into a squat.

My own experience is that front squats aren't as useful as some other exercises. Obviously some people do find them helpful, but personally I don't find them anywhere near as helpful as something like sissy squats or lunges to develop my quads.

[CaptainAwesome]

I used to be in the same boat. No quad development, significant glute and Hamstring development. I found that front squats at the end of the session, 5 x 5 at a RPE 6.5 or 7 so that I could keep rest periods short, helped with quads quite a bit.

YMMV, there was probably a lot of low hanging fruit for me since my quads were so weak at the time.

I can't really do front squats, various aspects of anthropometry make them impossible without having to take the bar entirely into my hands. I've tried them as an option to bring the quads up but the front rack position is extremely awkward for me and can't be maintained as I go down into a squat.

I have long legs and arms (can't use front rack either) and a short torso and am not really "built for front squatting." If you try squatting with your hips you'll have to use your hands to hold it or dump the bar. When you squat HB or LB you can cheat by relying on your hips to hinge, but in a Front Squat that will make you dump the bar or have to use your arms and hands to hold it in front of you while making your chest fold over.

Being from the SS world, you're probably trying to front squat with your hips and not even realizing it. I thought FS's weren't for me either and realized they're just hard. I do cross arms with them and my cues are to look straight ahead at something fixed, hold my arms up to where it feels like my elbows are pointing at the horizon (this engages my upper back too) and to let my knees track over my toes so I have to use my quads. You also have to focus on keeping your upper back and core tight too or you'll fold and dump the bar. They're just not an easy lift. Just start with something light like 135 and add weight slowly over time.

My attempts with them didn't even make it to 95. I have to lean over to squat even with the bar in front of me, my knees are already out pretty far forward in a low bar squat, with my torso probably less than 30 degrees from parallel with the floor. The only thing that will allow me to throw my knees forward enough to allow for the more upright torso will be picking my heels up off the ground or wearing shoes that add some elevation there for me. I actually once had a guy on the SS forums try to tell me I had "knee slide" but Rip actually corrected the guy that my anthropometry forced my knees out that far ahead of the toes.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I used to be in the same boat. No quad development, significant glute and Hamstring development. I found that front squats at the end of the session, 5 x 5 at a RPE 6.5 or 7 so that I could keep rest periods short, helped with quads quite a bit.

YMMV, there was probably a lot of low hanging fruit for me since my quads were so weak at the time.

I can't really do front squats, various aspects of anthropometry make them impossible without having to take the bar entirely into my hands. I've tried them as an option to bring the quads up but the front rack position is extremely awkward for me and can't be maintained as I go down into a squat.

If the front rack position is a problem, have you tried holding the bar with straps as done in this video (around the 1:00 minute mark) ?

[mgil]

One can also front squat with their arms cross in front, like in this video with Dan Green:



I’ve front squatted 315 this way. It works.

[SnakePlissken]

My attempts with them didn't even make it to 95. I have to lean over to squat even with the bar in front of me, my knees are already out pretty far forward in a low bar squat, with my torso probably less than 30 degrees from parallel with the floor. The only thing that will allow me to throw my knees forward enough to allow for the more upright torso will be picking my heels up off the ground or wearing shoes that add some elevation there for me. I actually once had a guy on the SS forums try to tell me I had "knee slide" but Rip actually corrected the guy that my anthropometry forced my knees out that far ahead of the toes.

You should get some weightlifting shoes then. Doesn't even need to be an aggressive heel. I'm not that naturally flexible (but it's gotten better overtime), but even a low heel like on Adidas Powerlift 4s are enough that I can squat low, hi and front without any issues after warming up with the bar. I can barely back squat flat footed by comparison.

The forward lean of less than 30deg from parallel would suggest you either have a 2' torso and 4' legs or your brain is still enforcing SS dogma for squatting by using hip drive on a front squat. If you lean forward in a back squat you can compensate by using your hips to power through, but like I said you can't cheat a front squat like that. Your legs have to do the work; not saying you need to do Front Squats, but these are some points it took me a while to realize too. If you want, I'm sure you could post a form video and people here that know more about lifting than I do can point out some easy mistakes to fix without getting a link to the first 3 questions.

Edit: @mgil's video about doing Front Squats Cross Armed or "bodybuilda" style are what I do.

[CaptainAwesome]

You should get some weightlifting shoes then. Doesn't even need to be an aggressive heel. I'm not that naturally flexible (but it's gotten better overtime), but even a low heel like on Adidas Powerlift 4s are enough that I can squat low, hi and front without any issues after warming up with the bar. I can barely back squat flat footed by comparison.

The forward lean of less than 30deg from parallel would suggest you either have a 2' torso and 4' legs or your brain is still enforcing SS dogma for squatting by using hip drive on a front squat. If you lean forward in a back squat you can compensate by using your hips to power through, but like I said you can't cheat a front squat like that. Your legs have to do the work; not saying you need to do Front Squats, but these are some points it took me a while to realize too. If you want, I'm sure you could post a form video and people here that know more about lifting than I do can point out some easy mistakes to fix without getting a link to the first 3 questions.

Edit: @mgil's video about doing Front Squats Cross Armed or "bodybuilda" style are what I do.

I do wear lifting shoes. Same ones you do, in fact. The back angle in my squat is REQUIRED to perform them, not because someone told me to. If there were a choice, my knees wouldn't be out beyond my toes as much as they are at the bottom (if I tried that TUBOW thing they love to talk about I'd knock it right the fuck over). That lean forward is needed to keep the whole thing in balance. I am extremely long-legged, especially in the femurs.

[SnakePlissken]

You should get some weightlifting shoes then. Doesn't even need to be an aggressive heel. I'm not that naturally flexible (but it's gotten better overtime), but even a low heel like on Adidas Powerlift 4s are enough that I can squat low, hi and front without any issues after warming up with the bar. I can barely back squat flat footed by comparison.

The forward lean of less than 30deg from parallel would suggest you either have a 2' torso and 4' legs or your brain is still enforcing SS dogma for squatting by using hip drive on a front squat. If you lean forward in a back squat you can compensate by using your hips to power through, but like I said you can't cheat a front squat like that. Your legs have to do the work; not saying you need to do Front Squats, but these are some points it took me a while to realize too. If you want, I'm sure you could post a form video and people here that know more about lifting than I do can point out some easy mistakes to fix without getting a link to the first 3 questions.

Edit: @mgil's video about doing Front Squats Cross Armed or "bodybuilda" style are what I do.

I do wear lifting shoes. Same ones you do, in fact. The back angle in my squat is REQUIRED to perform them, not because someone told me to. If there were a choice, my knees wouldn't be out beyond my toes as much as they are at the bottom (if I tried that TUBOW thing they love to talk about I'd knock it right the fuck over). That lean forward is needed to keep the whole thing in balance. I am extremely long-legged, especially in the femurs.

You're gonna have to let your knees go over your toes and keep your back more vertical. It may feel odd, but that's how you do them. I had to google the tubow thing and I'm not shocked he's come up with such a dumb rule set that you can't let your knees go forward. When I lowbar there isn't much knee travel, but they're required with Front Squats. See the video below. I have long legs, a short torso and a +2 ape index. I still have a slight lean forward on my torso, but if I go any more than that and the lift becomes infinitely harder.

[CaptainAwesome]

You should get some weightlifting shoes then. Doesn't even need to be an aggressive heel. I'm not that naturally flexible (but it's gotten better overtime), but even a low heel like on Adidas Powerlift 4s are enough that I can squat low, hi and front without any issues after warming up with the bar. I can barely back squat flat footed by comparison.

The forward lean of less than 30deg from parallel would suggest you either have a 2' torso and 4' legs or your brain is still enforcing SS dogma for squatting by using hip drive on a front squat. If you lean forward in a back squat you can compensate by using your hips to power through, but like I said you can't cheat a front squat like that. Your legs have to do the work; not saying you need to do Front Squats, but these are some points it took me a while to realize too. If you want, I'm sure you could post a form video and people here that know more about lifting than I do can point out some easy mistakes to fix without getting a link to the first 3 questions.

Edit: @mgil's video about doing Front Squats Cross Armed or "bodybuilda" style are what I do.

I do wear lifting shoes. Same ones you do, in fact. The back angle in my squat is REQUIRED to perform them, not because someone told me to. If there were a choice, my knees wouldn't be out beyond my toes as much as they are at the bottom (if I tried that TUBOW thing they love to talk about I'd knock it right the fuck over). That lean forward is needed to keep the whole thing in balance. I am extremely long-legged, especially in the femurs.

You're gonna have to let your knees go over your toes and keep your back more vertical. It may feel odd, but that's how you do them. I had to google the tubow thing and I'm not shocked he's come up with such a dumb rule set that you can't let your knees go forward. When I lowbar there isn't much knee travel, but they're required with Front Squats. See the video below. I have long legs, a short torso and a +2 ape index. I still have a slight lean forward on my torso, but if I go any more than that and the lift becomes infinitely harder.

You don't have unusually long femurs. My knees are actually further ahead of the toes than that with a low bar squat.

[SnakePlissken]

You don't have unusually long femurs. My knees are actually further ahead of the toes than that with a low bar squat.

I don't believe you. Post a video.

[cole]

i dont have access to leg ext, leg press, or any machine. so i low bar squat and low bar variant twice a week with an additional 2x a week of higher rep high bar squatting, and that seems to be helping me at the moment. not to mention i have 2 other days of pulling from the floor which also helps build the quads and glutes

day 1
comp squat
high bar suqat

day 2
comp DL
RDL

day 3
pause squat
high bar squat

day 4
pause DL
RDL

--> trust me, my quads see a lot of action this way

[CaptainAwesome]

Notice the already pretty severe dorsiflexion of the ankle, and the enormous length of the femurs. The knees aren't going any farther forward without the heels coming off the ground.

[DCR]

I think I’ve lost the thread of this … err… thread, but spitballing: I don’t think your knees are particularly far forward, @CaptainAwesome. They just look like where they ought to be when one squats properly with a simultaneous hip/knee break over midfoot, as opposed to shoving one’s hips back as far as possible. Your back angle does look pretty damn low. Have you tried not looking down? Have you tried paused squats, and playing with your ability to be more upright in the hole? I find them very useful for keeping my knees in front of me as long as possible on the ascent (h/t Max Aita), which lends itself to keeping more upright.

[CaptainAwesome]

I think I’ve lost the thread of this … err… thread, but spitballing: I don’t think your knees are particularly far forward, @CaptainAwesome. They just look like where they ought to be when one squats properly with a simultaneous hip/knee break over midfoot, as opposed to shoving one’s hips back as far as possible. Your back angle does look pretty damn low. Have you tried not looking down? Have you tried paused squats, and playing with your ability to be more upright in the hole? I find them very useful for keeping my knees in front of me as long as possible on the ascent (h/t Max Aita), which lends itself to keeping more upright.

That is as upright as a low bar squat is going to get. If I try to pick it up, I will fall over backwards.

[janoycresva]

I think I’ve lost the thread of this … err… thread, but spitballing: I don’t think your knees are particularly far forward, @CaptainAwesome. They just look like where they ought to be when one squats properly with a simultaneous hip/knee break over midfoot, as opposed to shoving one’s hips back as far as possible. Your back angle does look pretty damn low. Have you tried not looking down? Have you tried paused squats, and playing with your ability to be more upright in the hole? I find them very useful for keeping my knees in front of me as long as possible on the ascent (h/t Max Aita), which lends itself to keeping more upright.

He’d fall backwards if he tried to be more upright than that, and I don’t think there’s any more dorsiflexion to push his knees forward there

[mgil]

@CaptainAwesome, a few things:

Your anthropometry isn’t all that odd.

Where the bar sits doesn’t necessarily dictate angle at the ankle. The shift of the center of mass along with the change of hip and knee angles can effectively mitigate the need to do more dorsiflexion.

Lunges and split squats will allow for you to put your foot farther forward and thereby limit the flexion of the ankle.

[janoycresva]

Your anthropometry isn’t all that odd.

how’s mine



38 inch inseam at 6’3”, my squats look like highbar deadlifts

[ChasingCurls69]

Your anthropometry isn’t all that odd.

how’s mine



38 inch inseam at 6’3”, my squats look like highbar deadlifts

Holy shit, and I thought my 36" inseam was long.