Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#21

Post by aurelius » Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:20 pm

Hardartery wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:19 pmBoth athletes are demonstrating athletic ability, sure. But they are demonstraing a very specific skill set within narrow parameters. Hitting a 90 mph baseball might be difficult, but way too many people demonstrate the ability to do so for it to be particularly elevated in rank versus other things. Alexeev was a transcendent Weightlifter, but he's not making anyone's list either in spite of incredible strength and speed, and I'm sure a massive vertical as well. But all of that adds up to basically one dimensional athletic ability because it's all that he did. In contrast, every single decathlete that reaches the top of their sport is required to possess a fairly incredible ability in 10 different disciplines that are frankly quite different from each other. That event is by it's very design proof of all around athleticism. American Football, as much as I enjoyed playing it, is a very narrowly defined skillset. It is arguable that your list of qualities combined in it is actually BETTER demonstrated and tested in Rugby which also requires significantly better conditioning. Football players are good at Football, and I honestly do not value Baseball at all as a test of athleticism or even a real sport. These two sports are very much niche activities, not made less so by numbers of participants. Frankly, outside of the US American Football is not poplular or particularly contested, and baseball is only slightly more popular than Football. They are both very much tiny minority sports compared to Futbol, or as it is called in North Americ Soccer. Which would make it much more powerful of an argument to sayy that Messi, or Ronaldo, or Pele or several others are in fact vastly superior athletes to anyone found in Football or Baseball.
The definition of athleticism is the physical qualities that are characteristic of athletes, such as strength, fitness, and agility. I believe you are confusing skills that can be trained to a high level with athleticism.

Not many people can see much less hit a 90+ mph fastball. Let alone do it well. I don't particularly put any stock in baseball as it essentially boils down to 'can you hit a 90+ mph fastball' which is what Moneyball is all about. I simply pointed out that Jackson and Sanders aren't 1D athletes. Why they are 1D athletes is a concept you have yet to really explain.

Futbol is not a great test of overall athleticism. IMO, strength, power, and explosiveness are the most important athletic qualities. They are the least trainable and have the most genetic variation. For an athlete that competes in a sport that eliminates two of them disqualifies that athlete as a 'greatest athlete'. Would Ronaldo survive on an American Football or Rugby field? He'd have to hold up to the physicality where other athletic qualities such as strength and power become important factors. In essence, Ronaldo could be a real big sissy. We just don't know.

Conditioning is interesting as an athletic quality to mention. What type of conditioning? The ability to perform moderate activity for long periods? Almost anyone with 'normal' genetics can train that conditioning to a high level. What about the ability to perform explosive movements repetitively? I played both futbol and American football in high school. I could barely play one American football game per week (the physicality). And I was exhausted after every American football game. I could play 3 futbol games in a day. 6-7 futbol games over a weekend. I even played games back-to-back futbol at tournaments. This claim to American football players having poor conditioning is simply false. As everyone that has pushed a prowler can attest to. Explosive movements done in less than 30 second intervals are exhausting. While we are on conditioning let us throw some love to the grapplers! Grappling is legit ridiculous hard: A 5-minute Jiu Jitsu session can completely gas me. When I see a wrestler with an endless gas tank (condition: God-tier) I am always super impressed and would avoid any physical confrontation with that person. Nightmare fuel.

Rugby. They have tried to put rugby players on a US football field (collegiate and NFL). Has not gone well. [I like Rugby. Great sport.]

We know the quality of athlete by the competition they face. Full stop. Decathletes (and the majority of Olympic athletes) don't face the quality of competition a collegiate athlete in a D1 major sport in the US faces (US has a very large population). They are playing in the genetic kiddy pool. This same logic can be applied to a myriad of other Olympic sports that athletes compete in.
aurelius wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 11:33 amAdditionally, I think that it's pretty easy to identify many sports that are greater tests of athleticism tha either American Football or Baseball. They just aren't as popular in America.
Regarding football: based on the definition of athleticism, I disagree. American football selects for genetic freaks. The physicality of the sport combined with the different types of athletes that compete directly against one another on the same field forces this selection. I don't know of another sport that does that.

Our disagreement is how we define 'greatest athlete'. I define 'greatest athlete' as an individual that possesses freak level athleticism while demonstrating their superiority against a large group of competitors. I read you as selecting an individual that has trained in a variety of skills. I'm not trying to diminish the dedication and skill of those that compete in decathlons or golf. Golf is fucking hard yo. I am pointing out that Aaron Darnold could run down, rip the arm off, and beat to death the greatest decathlete. And probably anyone not a heavyweight MMA fighter/grappler so maybe not a great example...

Personal story: I once had a foot race with Ty Warren when at school at Texas A&M. Ty Warren went on to play nose tackle for the New England Patriots. He was listed at 6'5" and 300 pounds. He giggled if you told him that weight. He said he weighed that in high school and they just stopped updating it. I played multiple sports in high school. Was pretty quick. Thought no way Ty Warren could best me in a 20 yard dash. It wasn't even close. He had 5 yards on me when he crossed the line. There are monsters among us.
hector wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:52 pmI think there's a strong case for wrestling to be the most demanding sport requiring the broadest array of individual attributes (as opposed to skills, where decathlon obviously would win).
What's not as present in wrestling, or decathlon for that matter, is the ability to work as part of a team. Which would be critical for lots of other sports.
So before you decide the greatest individual athlete, you have to decide whether you're going to consider team sports or not.
Unless, maybe, you were arguing for Jordan.
I picked a wrestler as my vote. I agree as the most demanding sport. Another knock against wrestling is it does not test the ability for an athlete to move in open space.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#22

Post by mgil » Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:28 pm

Couple of things:

Elite soccer/futbol players are probably on nearly the same plane of existence as American football players. Especially the big name guys with long shots. They simply aren’t as heavy because their game demands actual conditioning. American football is 11 minutes of live ball action split roughly 50/50 among the defense and offense. Key positions for speed/strength, like a running back, probably see about 4 minutes. Just the stats.

That allows those guys to put on a lot more mass without penalty.

At some point, athletes have to specialize. It’s really tough to cover a vast domain of both strength and conditioning. That’s why Bo and Deon could play two sports, because neither one required a significant amount of endurance capacity for cardio. Plus the seasons didn’t overlap all that much.

Lots of T&F athletes at early stages cover a lot of events. If they rise to the elite levels, the amount of things they participate in begin to shrink significantly.

To the original point of this thread, I think that article I dug up from Wikipedia is about as fair of an assessment that exists. As sports evolve, specialization will continue as it has been doing. The general athlete has little chance of existing in the modern sports world. As a result, one has to measure their athleticism in a fairly narrow context, which helps little to make a point regarding a topic like this.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#23

Post by asdf » Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:12 pm

aurelius wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:07 pm Aleksandr Karelin
Karelin was amazing, obviously, but he competed in the least athletic weight class in the least athletic style of wrestling. It's possible Baumgartner could have defeated Karelin in a freestyle match.

I think Kyle Dake is one of the best athletes in wrestling, given that he won four NCAA championships, each at a different weight class. Only four wrestlers have ever won four NCAA titles, and no one else has done it at more than two different weights. Dake has also won four world championships, two at 74kg and two at 79kg.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#24

Post by aurelius » Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:54 pm

mgil wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:28 pm Couple of things:

Elite soccer/futbol players are probably on nearly the same plane of existence as American football players. Especially the big name guys with long shots. They simply aren’t as heavy because their game demands actual conditioning. American football is 11 minutes of live ball action split roughly 50/50 among the defense and offense. Key positions for speed/strength, like a running back, probably see about 4 minutes. Just the stats.
A futbol player mostly jogging for almost 90 minutes is not an especially difficult feat. A futbol game is 90 minutes and the average player runs 7 miles during the game (that is a 12 minute mile folks). That is not an elite feat by any means. The fastest marathon time is 121 minutes as a comparison. Sure, they have some runs and stuff but the players play the full 90 minutes and are still capable of top performance at the end of a match. IMO, describing futbol as requiring some kind of extreme conditioning is questionable at best. Now a top tier grappler that can go all out for 5 minutes...that is some elite conditioning. And again, there are different types of conditioning. Being conditioned for repetitive explosive movements (American Football), continuous explosive activity (grappling), or moderate activity over long periods (futbol) are very different. I can tell you from what I have read that the general population has a large capacity to train conditioning for moderate activity over long periods. I think the bias towards considering running for extended periods as good conditioning is playing out here.

Regarding conditioning something I found interesting: Cowboys essentially have 2 RB1's. One is a more traditional power back and the other is the speed back. The Cowboys have determined if they target the speed back for 10-15 plays they can get 100% effort out of him. More than that and his performance drops significantly. Explosiveness is the first thing to go. This happens in fighting. If someone gases they lose all the explosiveness on their strikes. I think this kind of conditioning is hard limited by genetics. Most of us don't have the ability to go all out for any length of time.

I do agree that futbol players are elite athletes. Certainly some very explosive (fast) players. It is hard for me to compare futbol athletes to other sports as international futbol eliminates physicality. a I believe strength, power, and explosiveness are the primary athletic qualities that separate the gen pop from the freaks. In sports that do not display one or all of these, it is hard for me to judge athleticism. Example: Pretty sure Rafeal Nadal is an elite athlete. Just how do I compare him to Jim Brown? And if I have to pick between the two it is Jim Brown all day because I have seen Jim Brown truck a 300+ pound man (power), outrun a smaller man (speed), and juke others (agility).

I do agree American football players can get bigger but that is an over simplification. American football allows for a variety of athletes to be on the field at the same time. From 300+ pound linemen to 180 pound receivers. I get to see strength, power, and explosiveness in different sized athletes go directly against one another. I get to see a transcendent athlete with a freakish combination of power, speed, and size dominate like a Bo Jackson. I'm not arguing that American football is the 'best' sport. I simply think that it best show cases all of the various qualities of athleticism than any other sport.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#25

Post by mbasic » Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:14 am

mgil wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:28 pm Couple of things:

Elite soccer/futbol players are probably on nearly the same plane of existence as American football players. Especially the big name guys with long shots. They simply aren’t as heavy because their game demands actual conditioning. American football is 11 minutes of live ball action split roughly 50/50 among the defense and offense. Key positions for speed/strength, like a running back, probably see about 4 minutes. Just the stats.

That allows those guys to put on a lot more mass without penalty.

At some point, athletes have to specialize. It’s really tough to cover a vast domain of both strength and conditioning. That’s why Bo and Deon could play two sports, because neither one required a significant amount of endurance capacity for cardio. Plus the seasons didn’t overlap all that much.

Lots of T&F athletes at early stages cover a lot of events. If they rise to the elite levels, the amount of things they participate in begin to shrink significantly.

To the original point of this thread, I think that article I dug up from Wikipedia is about as fair of an assessment that exists. As sports evolve, specialization will continue as it has been doing. The general athlete has little chance of existing in the modern sports world. As a result, one has to measure their athleticism in a fairly narrow context, which helps little to make a point regarding a topic like this.
Fine.
The "4 minutes" thing can be equally applied to soccer.
@aurelius covered this ....
Soccer players move at top speeds for a mere fraction of the game. 90% of "it" is slow jogging speeds or less (*not exactly, but something like that).
The GPS units being worn by entire teams has soccer teams re-evaluating how they are conditioning their players, and some teams are realizing they have been (maybe) neglecting top speed training for "cardio".....now they see how little actual 'fast running' they do compared to slogging around.

FINE !
The "best athletes" are ...... 2a high school football kids! period, flat!
Depending on how your local high school athletics regulators set up your divisions, I'm talking about high school FB teams with 20-25 guys.
A handful of kids (mostly juniors and seniors) will play offense, defense, and many special teams plays.
That's about 120-150 plays per game .... balls out, almost every time. Add in contact, injury risk, heat, and a certain bravery factor taking on an occasional kid that's twice your size and ability. Fuck. This doesn't exist anywhere else in football (large HS, NCAA, or NFL).

seriously though. If going by this "work done" and "display of conditioning" and "variety of abilities" metric(s),
its obviously going to be decathletes in T&F.....which, no-one gives two fucks about. But yeah, those guys.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#26

Post by Hardartery » Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:12 am

aurelius wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:20 pm
Not many people can see much less hit a 90+ mph fastball. Let alone do it well. I don't particularly put any stock in baseball as it essentially boils down to 'can you hit a 90+ mph fastball' which is what Moneyball is all about. I simply pointed out that Jackson and Sanders aren't 1D athletes. Why they are 1D athletes is a concept you have yet to really explain.

Futbol is not a great test of overall athleticism. IMO, strength, power, and explosiveness are the most important athletic qualities. They are the least trainable and have the most genetic variation. For an athlete that competes in a sport that eliminates two of them disqualifies that athlete as a 'greatest athlete'. Would Ronaldo survive on an American Football or Rugby field? He'd have to hold up to the physicality where other athletic qualities such as strength and power become important factors. In essence, Ronaldo could be a real big sissy. We just don't know.

Conditioning is interesting as an athletic quality to mention. What type of conditioning? The ability to perform moderate activity for long periods? Almost anyone with 'normal' genetics can train that conditioning to a high level. What about the ability to perform explosive movements repetitively? I played both futbol and American football in high school. I could barely play one American football game per week (the physicality). And I was exhausted after every American football game. I could play 3 futbol games in a day. 6-7 futbol games over a weekend. I even played games back-to-back futbol at tournaments. This claim to American football players having poor conditioning is simply false. As everyone that has pushed a prowler can attest to. Explosive movements done in less than 30 second intervals are exhausting. While we are on conditioning let us throw some love to the grapplers! Grappling is legit ridiculous hard: A 5-minute Jiu Jitsu session can completely gas me. When I see a wrestler with an endless gas tank (condition: God-tier) I am always super impressed and would avoid any physical confrontation with that person. Nightmare fuel.

Rugby. They have tried to put rugby players on a US football field (collegiate and NFL). Has not gone well. [I like Rugby. Great sport.]

We know the quality of athlete by the competition they face. Full stop. Decathletes (and the majority of Olympic athletes) don't face the quality of competition a collegiate athlete in a D1 major sport in the US faces (US has a very large population). They are playing in the genetic kiddy pool. This same logic can be applied to a myriad of other Olympic sports that athletes compete in.
aurelius wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 11:33 amAdditionally, I think that it's pretty easy to identify many sports that are greater tests of athleticism tha either American Football or Baseball. They just aren't as popular in America.
Regarding football: based on the definition of athleticism, I disagree. American football selects for genetic freaks. The physicality of the sport combined with the different types of athletes that compete directly against one another on the same field forces this selection. I don't know of another sport that does that.

Our disagreement is how we define 'greatest athlete'. I define 'greatest athlete' as an individual that possesses freak level athleticism while demonstrating their superiority against a large group of competitors. I read you as selecting an individual that has trained in a variety of skills. I'm not trying to diminish the dedication and skill of those that compete in decathlons or golf. Golf is fucking hard yo. I am pointing out that Aaron Darnold could run down, rip the arm off, and beat to death the greatest decathlete. And probably anyone not a heavyweight MMA fighter/grappler so maybe not a great example...

Personal story: I once had a foot race with Ty Warren when at school at Texas A&M. Ty Warren went on to play nose tackle for the New England Patriots. He was listed at 6'5" and 300 pounds. He giggled if you told him that weight. He said he weighed that in high school and they just stopped updating it. I played multiple sports in high school. Was pretty quick. Thought no way Ty Warren could best me in a 20 yard dash. It wasn't even close. He had 5 yards on me when he crossed the line. There are monsters among us.
hector wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:52 pmI think there's a strong case for wrestling to be the most demanding sport requiring the broadest array of individual attributes (as opposed to skills, where decathlon obviously would win).
What's not as present in wrestling, or decathlon for that matter, is the ability to work as part of a team. Which would be critical for lots of other sports.
So before you decide the greatest individual athlete, you have to decide whether you're going to consider team sports or not.
Unless, maybe, you were arguing for Jordan.
I picked a wrestler as my vote. I agree as the most demanding sport. Another knock against wrestling is it does not test the ability for an athlete to move in open space.
I am too lazy to add the quote thingies and interject point by point, so I'm going to generalize a little. Jacksn and Sander demostrated eye hand coordination and the ability to run, the same basic two things necessary for the sporting endeavors in which they were involved. There are a lot of athletic skills and ability not demonstrated. My lack of respect for a 90 mile an hour fastball is becasue it's not that impressive, it's a trainable skill. You don't even have to be abble to see it to time the pitch and hit it (Not saying anything about hitting it well here). A 130 mph hockey puck get dealt with all game long in hockey, not a unique thing honestly in sport. Lacrosse balls move pretty fast and you have to catch it with a little bit of net on a stick.
To be clear, I'm not a fan of Track and Field in general, I find baseball overblown and boring as hell, and American Football is entertaining but also extremely overblown. These guys are very, very trained for the sport. Often they are not good at anything else, which indicates that they are not displaying great athleticism in particular but great adaptation. I am not saying they are not athletic, I know that they do possess skill and ability. I don't think they are the greatest athletes (Although some maybe are up there and would have done well in other sports but we will never know). Paul Andersen played Football and set Weightlifting records, nobody mentioned him either.
Wrestlers I agree should certainly be up there, to be a great wrestler is actually something. So do we then throw Hackensmchidt into the list? As for using competition as a guide post, that is a no go of an argument. It doesn't matter if guys now have to compete against more people or less people. The great athletes rise to the top, they would just rise higher today. They would still be the guys at the top becasue they rise to what they compete against. You also have a lot of advantages in equipment advances these days that make a difference. There are also a lot more places to be employed in the various sports today, so it is arguable that it is actually easier to rise to the level of professional athlete today than it was 50 or 80 years ago.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

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Post by aurelius » Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:00 am

@HardarteryFootball requires a lot more athleticism than you describe. You are wrong about baseball. You can read about the reaction time required and there are great hitters in the minor leagues that never even get a shot at the pros because they can’t see the ball. Hitting a MLB pitch is much more than just swinging a bat. I suggest you read about it and it isn’t comparable to catching the ball. I played goalie in hockey. You don’t see the puck. You play angles and percentages. You see a player go for a shot and you cover as much of the next as you can. You work on understanding your position relative to the net and creating proper angles to reduce net exposure to the shooter.

I don’t understand your thoughts that more competition somehow reduces overall quality? That goes against everything we know about competition. Lowering the barrier of entry increases competition. Increase competition means those that excel have to better athletes. It is easier to be a big fish in a small pond than a shark In the ocean. In previous eras athletes could not make money even as a professional. Meaning primarily rich people played sports. Are we to assume that the best athletes 100 years ago were all in the top 1% of wealth?

We simply disagree on too many fundamental points to come to an agreement. At least in my case I am discussing very dedicated and talented people that have competed at levels I have not come close to. So my opinion while I eat Cheetos from my couch is worth about zero.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

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Post by Hardartery » Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:27 am

aurelius wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:00 am @HardarteryFootball requires a lot more athleticism than you describe. You are wrong about baseball. You can read about the reaction time required and there are great hitters in the minor leagues that never even get a shot at the pros because they can’t see the ball. Hitting a MLB pitch is much more than just swinging a bat. I suggest you read about it and it isn’t comparable to catching the ball. I played goalie in hockey. You don’t see the puck. You play angles and percentages. You see a player go for a shot and you cover as much of the next as you can. You work on understanding your position relative to the net and creating proper angles to reduce net exposure to the shooter.

I don’t understand your thoughts that more competition somehow reduces overall quality? That goes against everything we know about competition. Lowering the barrier of entry increases competition. Increase competition means those that excel have to better athletes. It is easier to be a big fish in a small pond than a shark In the ocean. In previous eras athletes could not make money even as a professional. Meaning primarily rich people played sports. Are we to assume that the best athletes 100 years ago were all in the top 1% of wealth?

We simply disagree on too many fundamental points. Either way, at least in my case, we are discussing very dedicated and talented people that have competed at levels I have not come close to. So my opinion while I eat Cheetos from my couch is worth about zero.
Hockey players do actually see the puck, goalies included, just not all of them. Some guys play percentages, and everyone picks their initial setup in response to the incoming play based on angles, but top flight guys can see the puck and do. Just like some hitters on baseball see the spin on the ball as it leaves the pitchers hand, as impossible as that might sound. And based on the some of the coaching that I have heard at MLB level, there are many players absolutely swinging "Blind". They decide what they are swinging at and ahead of time and then worry about the timing. I am not pulling that out of my ass, I heard interviews with both players and hitting coaches saying it. Controlling the rebound as a goalie requires at least a good idea of where that puck is, and they control the rebound as much as possible. I grew up in Hockey central, grandson of a semi-pro player back when there were only 6 NHL teams. I've been around enough hockey and players to pick up on a few things. And my grandfather was never rich, and neither were any of the other players.

I am not saying anything about quantity of competition and quality, I'm sayong it's false reasoning. The best guys would be the best in any era. For example, I am CURRENTLY capable at 50 years of age of equalling most of the performances in early 90's WSM, and bettering the ones from before that era. I promise you that if I could time travel back and participate I would still get crushed by the top guys, they would simply pull out another level to meet what is needed. Arguing that modern athletes are better because there is more competition is simply not a viable argument. The great athletes do what they need to do. I'l defer to Alexeeyev on this. He said in an interview that Redding was stronger than he was, but Redding never beat him or got the records. The better lifter wasn't the winner, the better athlete was. Alexeeyev did what he needed to do to get the job done, and would have done more if there was even better competition. Much like Lasha is only doing what he needs to right now, not what he could do. Because no one pushes him. Jordan is a great athlete because of this, even if he wasn't great at baseball. He did what was needed and elevated the other players around him. Pippen wasnot even close to the same level when he played without Jordan.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

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Post by mbasic » Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:35 am

Can we talk about this:
Old timers wanting to hold dear their athletes of yester year as if they would still great in modern times? Fuck off with that.

Some guys like Michael Jordan would be great today, but not as great, and probably not the greatest (ok, top 5).

Someone like a Larry Bird? ... may not exist at all is today's NBA. Fuck him. Fuck off with John Havlicek and etc.

Today: More and better athletes, a deeper pool of athletes, more acceptance and popularity of women athletes ..... its not even funny.

Even say if there is some ultimate ceiling for talent, athletic ability, etc ....Even say a freak like Flo-Jo, her greatness would be severely diluted due to comparable / equal competition being out there and all around. Another example is Craig Elo guarding Michael Jordan in the NBA finals. This certainly wouldn't be a thing in the modern day.

We might be in a time now, in the last couple decades, where we've really are bouncing off of the ceiling in terms of athletic ability and talent ...... and going forward possibly going backwards a little bit in a way due how a lot of the 'power' has shifted over to the players from team owners. Things are going to get noticeably better.

Also, more drug testing is hampering full-PED-blasting of the 2000's and 2010's. Sports science (non-PED sports science) has probably peaked also, AND might be going backwards as well. In the 1980's, we may not have known how to have effectively train peeps ....

Another good example because the sport is so new: The UFC. Some of the champions from UFC 1-100 would absolutely get killed today. On the women side its even more pronounced. I bet if you took that one little short chick with the round head, that looked like some 11 y.o. boy bully from my grammar school years that repeatedly took my lunch money and kicked me in the nuts ..... That boy girl would get utterly destroyed by a modern day female UFC/MMA fighter. EDIT: its was Ronda Rousey

Likewise, its evolved at such a fast pace, you'll likely NOT see dominate figures last for anywhere as near as when the sport was newer. (Boston Celtic dynasty is never going to happen again)

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

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Post by chrisd » Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:53 am

Emil Zatopek. A runner whose style was described as "Like a man wrestling with an octopus on a conveyor belt".

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

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Post by mikeylikey » Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:38 pm

Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:27 am I am not saying anything about quantity of competition and quality, I'm sayong it's false reasoning. The best guys would be the best in any era. For example, I am CURRENTLY capable at 50 years of age of equalling most of the performances in early 90's WSM, and bettering the ones from before that era. I promise you that if I could time travel back and participate I would still get crushed by the top guys, they would simply pull out another level to meet what is needed. Arguing that modern athletes are better because there is more competition is simply not a viable argument. The great athletes do what they need to do. I'l defer to Alexeeyev on this. He said in an interview that Redding was stronger than he was, but Redding never beat him or got the records. The better lifter wasn't the winner, the better athlete was. Alexeeyev did what he needed to do to get the job done, and would have done more if there was even better competition. Much like Lasha is only doing what he needs to right now, not what he could do. Because no one pushes him. Jordan is a great athlete because of this, even if he wasn't great at baseball. He did what was needed and elevated the other players around him. Pippen wasnot even close to the same level when he played without Jordan.
I think anybody you are going to nominate for best athlete period needs to have either demonstrated excellence in more than one sport, or be conceivably capable of having done so. In contrast with say a marathon runner or like Tom Brady, who could only have every really done one thing.

Jordan wasn't great at baseball in comparison with professional baseball players, but he did okay playing professional baseball. Which puts him in the top what, 0.01% of all baseball players? He's also a + handicap which puts him in like the top 1% of golfers.

Being good to great at more than one's primary sport sort of helps with the "well but sportX is a Different Game(TM) today." when somebody like MJ actually played Different Games and was excellent at them too.
Last edited by mikeylikey on Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#32

Post by Hardartery » Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:39 pm

mbasic wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:35 am Can we talk about this:
Old timers wanting to hold dear their athletes of yester year as if they would still great in modern times? Fuck off with that.

Some guys like Michael Jordan would be great today, but not as great, and probably not the greatest (ok, top 5).

Someone like a Larry Bird? ... may not exist at all is today's NBA. Fuck him. Fuck off with John Havlicek and etc.

Today: More and better athletes, a deeper pool of athletes, more acceptance and popularity of women athletes ..... its not even funny.

Even say if there is some ultimate ceiling for talent, athletic ability, etc ....Even say a freak like Flo-Jo, her greatness would be severely diluted due to comparable / equal competition being out there and all around. Another example is Craig Elo guarding Michael Jordan in the NBA finals. This certainly wouldn't be a thing in the modern day.

We might be in a time now, in the last couple decades, where we've really are bouncing off of the ceiling in terms of athletic ability and talent ...... and going forward possibly going backwards a little bit in a way due how a lot of the 'power' has shifted over to the players from team owners. Things are going to get noticeably better.

Also, more drug testing is hampering full-PED-blasting of the 2000's and 2010's. Sports science (non-PED sports science) has probably peaked also, AND might be going backwards as well. In the 1980's, we may not have known how to have effectively train peeps ....

Another good example because the sport is so new: The UFC. Some of the champions from UFC 1-100 would absolutely get killed today. On the women side its even more pronounced. I bet if you took that one little short chick with the round head, that looked like some 11 y.o. boy bully from my grammar school years that repeatedly took my lunch money and kicked me in the nuts ..... That boy girl would get utterly destroyed by a modern day female UFC/MMA fighter. EDIT: its was Ronda Rousey

Likewise, its evolved at such a fast pace, you'll likely NOT see dominate figures last for anywhere as near as when the sport was newer. (Boston Celtic dynasty is never going to happen again)
LOL. Hit a nerve with you? You are delusional if you thing PED testing today is hampering anything. I promise you that it is not. Is Lasha better than all of the Weightlifters before him? Maybe, I wouldn't say that he is not the GOAT. He also is not hampered by PED tesiting, they have kep-t a better eye on his testing since he got popped for Winstrol to make sure he doesn't get caught again. It doesn't make him less great. I am sure that the current NFL players are largely better than the guys 50 years ago. Jim Brown is hard to quantify, but outside of him they are better football players for sure. Are they better athletes? I doubt it, but they certainly have better training to hone that natural ability. And people have been saying that Sports Science has peaked for decades. No chance. The surface has barely been scratched, science knows next to nothing in the grand scheme. In spite of how much more we know now than even 10 years ago, I promise you that we know nothing. All of the advances so far certainly impact the quality of athletes, but that means that it makes it impossible to know how good the old athletes actually were, given how crap most of their training actually was. The guy at the top is the guy with natural ability, outside of whatever advances there have been in science and training. Given modern training, who knows what they would have done? Without the completely unfettered PED use of the 60's-90's, who knows where those athletes would stack up? Impossible to make a fair comparison outside of how much they dominated their contemporaries.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#33

Post by Hardartery » Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:40 pm

mikeylikey wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:38 pm
Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:27 am I am not saying anything about quantity of competition and quality, I'm sayong it's false reasoning. The best guys would be the best in any era. For example, I am CURRENTLY capable at 50 years of age of equalling most of the performances in early 90's WSM, and bettering the ones from before that era. I promise you that if I could time travel back and participate I would still get crushed by the top guys, they would simply pull out another level to meet what is needed. Arguing that modern athletes are better because there is more competition is simply not a viable argument. The great athletes do what they need to do. I'l defer to Alexeeyev on this. He said in an interview that Redding was stronger than he was, but Redding never beat him or got the records. The better lifter wasn't the winner, the better athlete was. Alexeeyev did what he needed to do to get the job done, and would have done more if there was even better competition. Much like Lasha is only doing what he needs to right now, not what he could do. Because no one pushes him. Jordan is a great athlete because of this, even if he wasn't great at baseball. He did what was needed and elevated the other players around him. Pippen wasnot even close to the same level when he played without Jordan.
I think anybody you are going to nominate for best athlete period needs to have either demonstrated excellence in more than one sport, or be conceivably capable of having done so. In contrast with say a marathon runner or like Tom Brady, who could only have every really done one thing.

Jordan wasn't great at baseball in comparison with professional baseball players, but he did okay playing professional baseball. Which puts him in the top what, 0.01% of all baseball players? He's also a + handicap which puts him in like the top 1% of golfers.

Being good to great at more than one's primary sport sort of helps with the "well but sportX is a Different Game(TM) today." when somebody like MJ actually played Different Games and was excellent at them too.
Exactly. That adaptability across disciplines matters.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#34

Post by dw » Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:12 pm

Deep thoughts from someone who is not a sports fan...

I'm always struck by how normal looking professional soccer players are, in terms of physique. They look just like... athletic high school kids.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#35

Post by 51M0N » Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:24 pm

mikeylikey wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:38 pm
I think anybody you are going to nominate for best athlete period needs to have either demonstrated excellence in more than one sport, or be conceivably capable of having done so. In contrast with say a marathon runner or like Tom Brady, who could only have every really done one thing.
I wouldn't be so sure that Tom Brady could only do one thing. Sure, he wouldn't do as well in sports that require a high degree of athleticism. But I think there are plenty of sports that his GOAT skill set would work in. Cricket for example. Good timing, hand eye coordination and mental focus make a better batsman than beastly genetics.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#36

Post by asdf » Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:47 pm

@Hardartery @aurelius
Your debate reminds me of The Sports Gene by David Epstein. There's a whole chapter on vision and reaction time that explains why no MLB players were able to hit SOFTBALLS pitched UNDERHAND by Jennie Finch. Basically, they'd developed the ability to pick up on visual cues during baseball pitches. When they get hits in baseball, they aren't reacting to the ball after it leaves the pitcher's hand -- there's not enough time. And that's why they whiffed on the softball pitches. The visual cues are different (underhand throw vs. overhand, different size ball with different seams, etc.), and their (mediocre) reaction times couldn't save them. If it's true that a puck travels faster than a fastball, then the same thing is probably happening in hockey.

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/209160709

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#37

Post by mbasic » Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:48 pm

Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:39 pm
mbasic wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:35 am Can we talk about this:
Old timers wanting to hold dear their athletes of yester year as if they would still great in modern times? Fuck off with that.

Some guys like Michael Jordan would be great today, but not as great, and probably not the greatest (ok, top 5).

Someone like a Larry Bird? ... may not exist at all is today's NBA. Fuck him. Fuck off with John Havlicek and etc.

Today: More and better athletes, a deeper pool of athletes, more acceptance and popularity of women athletes ..... its not even funny.

Even say if there is some ultimate ceiling for talent, athletic ability, etc ....Even say a freak like Flo-Jo, her greatness would be severely diluted due to comparable / equal competition being out there and all around. Another example is Craig Elo guarding Michael Jordan in the NBA finals. This certainly wouldn't be a thing in the modern day.

We might be in a time now, in the last couple decades, where we've really are bouncing off of the ceiling in terms of athletic ability and talent ...... and going forward possibly going backwards a little bit in a way due how a lot of the 'power' has shifted over to the players from team owners. Things are going to get noticeably better.

Also, more drug testing is hampering full-PED-blasting of the 2000's and 2010's. Sports science (non-PED sports science) has probably peaked also, AND might be going backwards as well. In the 1980's, we may not have known how to have effectively train peeps ....

Another good example because the sport is so new: The UFC. Some of the champions from UFC 1-100 would absolutely get killed today. On the women side its even more pronounced. I bet if you took that one little short chick with the round head, that looked like some 11 y.o. boy bully from my grammar school years that repeatedly took my lunch money and kicked me in the nuts ..... That boy girl would get utterly destroyed by a modern day female UFC/MMA fighter. EDIT: its was Ronda Rousey

Likewise, its evolved at such a fast pace, you'll likely NOT see dominate figures last for anywhere as near as when the sport was newer. (Boston Celtic dynasty is never going to happen again)
LOL. Hit a nerve with you? You are delusional if you thing PED testing today is hampering anything. I promise you that it is not. Is Lasha better than all of the Weightlifters before him? Maybe, I wouldn't say that he is not the GOAT. He also is not hampered by PED tesiting, they have kep-t a better eye on his testing since he got popped for Winstrol to make sure he doesn't get caught again. It doesn't make him less great.
Lasha is just one example. For every one Lasha, there's scores of others who didn't get as far in the modern day because of testing.
Maybe Lasha transplant in 1986 would be even stronger?
Testing now is aggressive to what was in the past; for a time testing was non-existent, or almost so.
Especially couple testing with the new qualification procedures that would expose athletes to more testing (this is apart of "testing").

I am sure that the current NFL players are largely better than the guys 50 years ago. Jim Brown is hard to quantify, but outside of him they are better football players for sure. Are they better athletes? I doubt it, but they certainly have better training to hone that natural ability.


This is some kind of weird double speak^; you are trying to separate the athlete-person from his athletic abilities that some of which were gained through their more modern and better training. I don't think yon can/should do that, or how you'd differentiate the two.
And people have been saying that Sports Science has peaked for decades. No chance. The surface has barely been scratched, science knows next to nothing in the grand scheme. In spite of how much more we know now than even 10 years ago, I promise you that we know nothing. All of the advances so far certainly impact the quality of athletes, but that means that it makes it impossible to know how good the old athletes actually were, given how crap most of their training actually was. The guy at the top is the guy with natural ability, outside of whatever advances there have been in science and training. Given modern training, who knows what they would have done? Without the completely unfettered PED use of the 60's-90's, who knows where those athletes would stack up? Impossible to make a fair comparison outside of how much they dominated their contemporaries.
Applied sports science. I agree we probably don't know much as in the totality of sport science, but we know a lot more NOW than what was known BEFORE. Leaps and bounds. But how we apply it now (IMO) maybe getting more fucked up from around this point (last 5 years) going forward. Most everything in terms of general basic athletics (T&F, Weightlifting, run fast, throw far, etc) has peaked, or nearly so ..... that last 90% of soprts-sci knowledge, isn't going to bump the needle much because of basic physics.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#38

Post by asdf » Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:50 pm

mbasic wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:35 am [Ronda Rousey] would get utterly destroyed by a modern day female UFC/MMA fighter.
No need to speculate, that's exactly what happened when she was TKO'd by Amanda Nunes.

Nonetheless, Ronda was a great athlete. Let's not forget she won a bronze medal in Olympic judo.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#39

Post by aurelius » Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:41 pm

asdf wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:50 pm
mbasic wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:35 am [Ronda Rousey] would get utterly destroyed by a modern day female UFC/MMA fighter.
No need to speculate, that's exactly what happened when she was TKO'd by Amanda Nunes.

Nonetheless, Ronda was a great athlete. Let's not forget she won a bronze medal in Olympic judo.
Rousey was not competitive when she started to fight more skilled competition. Her athleticism is not why she lost. Her lack of striking ability was. Which brings us to the crux of skill acquisition versus athleticism. And is there a way to parse the difference?

Let’s take Jim Brown. Could he have competed as a decathlete if he had spent the time acquiring those skills? I would hazard yes. Athletic ability is not the limiting factor to compete. Skill acquisition is. Which is probably true more or less of any sport for any athlete of a certain ability.

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Re: Greatest athlete(s) of all time in your opinion?

#40

Post by asdf » Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:45 pm

aurelius wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:41 pm [Rousey's] athleticism is not why she lost. Her lack of striking ability was.
Rousey's problem was that she didn't know how to shoot a double-leg.

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