Abs, I guess

[Hardartery]

So, gonna maybe open up a can of worms here. Which is okay because that can be entertaining depending on how heated guys get.
As a youth, I did a lot of direct abs. 200 situps and 200 eg lifts most nights. Not calling that bright or useful, just what I did to do something. I never had a 6 pack, even at 150 lbs and 6'0 I had a strong 4 pack but the bottom 2 never emerged. I was also jumping rope 45 minutes a night in addition to lifting weights in a very Bro fashion. But my waist was unsurprisingly fairly small. I haven't done direct ab work in decades, and frankly it has never seemed necessary from a strength perspective. I did Turkish Getups to appease my training partner once, they were very easy which pissed him off. That said, the waist is not small and I have to cut pretty hard before it makes any difference at all in that measurement.
Intro ramble aside, I am going to start doing some direct ab work again just because. I am hoping to affect gut size, but not counting on it. I just want to experiment and see wht happens. I know I cannot do 200 situps in a single go right now so it won't hurt anything. Thoughts?

[dw]

I read a piece by an Australian bodybuilding coach who seemed legitimate and he said that he doesn't normally program traps or abs work for bodybuilders unless they are specifically deficient in those areas. He thinks they tend to be covered sufficiently by indirect work.

[SnakePlissken]

I think the "they're already trained indirectly" debate will never be solved. That said, I've actually been thinking that my abs are a big piece holding me back from getting a heavier squat because for a while now I've felt like my legs have the power in them, but my torso doesn't and my back has been feeling stout the last year. Doing my own experiment where I'm going to aim to do some direct ab work a few times a week.

[MarkKO]

I think the "they're already trained indirectly" debate will never be solved. That said, I've actually been thinking that my abs are a big piece holding me back from getting a heavier squat because for a while now I've felt like my legs have the power in them, but my torso doesn't and my back has been feeling stout the last year. Doing my own experiment where I'm going to aim to do some direct ab work a few times a week.

I have a tentative theory about this.

I think someone who has a short torso will probably get enough 'indirect' training, simply because their torso is short enough that their back isn't under too much strain so there isn't as much need to train the abs more than being able to brace.

On the other hand, someone with a longer torso (like me, so this is where the bias comes in) is probably going to need direct ab training because there is much more of their back to get placed under strain. Just knowing how to brace correctly won't be enough past a certain point, the abs will need to become significantly stronger to be able to create enough tension while bracing to support the back. These people will also likely need to directly train their lower back more as well.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I think the "they're already trained indirectly" debate will never be solved. That said, I've actually been thinking that my abs are a big piece holding me back from getting a heavier squat because for a while now I've felt like my legs have the power in them, but my torso doesn't and my back has been feeling stout the last year. Doing my own experiment where I'm going to aim to do some direct ab work a few times a week.

I am also convinced that increasing torso strength is very important. And that making your abs larger through directed hypertrophy work is one of the keys to it. If you look at the Westside era lifters they did a great amount of direct abs/lower back work. Their torsos were pretty strong, I think. I'm curious to know if your experiment will work.

[CaptainAwesome]

I haven't done direct ab work since I started seriously training and haven't felt a need to. I think I already had pretty well developed abs, though. Between a lot of calisthenic work and carrying around a very heavy backpack while struggling to keep my torso upright under the load the entire time in high school, I've always been pretty good there. The only guy who out-sit-upped me during that presidential physical fitness test thing was on the gymnastics team. He beat me by one. Even at really heavy bodyweight, I can see hints of ab definition in the mirror. That said, don't know if I could or couldn't gain anything from direct training. I want to try a more bodybuilding focused program that goes after neglected areas like that at some point. But I don't think the abs are holding back any of my big barbell lifts.

[mbasic]

If you want to see the six-pack for the sake of seeing the six pack ..... then the rectus abdominis could stand to use some hypertrophy.
The 6 little bumps or turtle shell will protrude out a bit more than doing absolutely nothing ("you brace when you do barbell lifts").
If you target them for "hypertrophy", they'll be more see-able at a slightly higher body fat % than otherwise.

The bottom part below the naval (the bottom two of the 'six' or 'eight')..... that's all genetics and/or having super low bodyfat%.

If a guy is going for V-taper, or slender waist .... the thinking is to shy away from hypertrophy-ing the trunk/waist....and not to directly train abs.

If a guy is going super low BF% anyway (say a BB'er), and has the knowledge, will power, genetics, and/or drugs to do so ... there probably is no point in training them directly (so much).

[broseph]

I am hoping to affect gut size, but not counting on it. I just want to experiment and see wht happens.

Are you hoping to make your gut bigger with abdominal hypertrophy, or make it smaller via "spot reduction of fat"?
Because I'm pretty sure spot reduction isn't a thing.

-------------------

Regarding "abs" in the sense of a visible 4, 6, 8+ pack, I think the genetic component is pretty significant, and has more to do with the lines of connective tissue than responsiveness to hypertrophy. Some guys just have great ab genetics, others not so much.

Like any skeletal muscle though, the abs can hypertrophy and will stick out farther past those bands of connective tissue as they get bigger.

-------------------

This might warrant its own thread, and I was actually thinking about writing up something for the drafts section, but... I believe in a phenomenon I call "the long pump." It's not something I've seen discussed, but I think there's an increase in "visible muscle tone" when a muscle is worked regularly.

I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.

Similarly, I seem to have better ab definition when I'm regularly "doing abs." I don't even need much volume or frequency, and I don't need to push progressive overload. Just getting a few sets twice a week gives me the long pump needed for my 4 pack.

As an aside; because of the long pump, I think people that "just want to get toned" can achieve some of that without gaining actual muscle mass as long as their bodyfat is low enough.

[DCR]

This might warrant its own thread, and I was actually thinking about writing up something for the drafts section, but... I believe in a phenomenon I call "the long pump." It's not something I've seen discussed, but I think there's an increase in "visible muscle tone" when a muscle is worked regularly.

I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.

Similarly, I seem to have better ab definition when I'm regularly "doing abs." I don't even need much volume or frequency, and I don't need to push progressive overload. Just getting a few sets twice a week gives me the long pump needed for my 4 pack.

Would love to see a write up on this. I don’t think anyone who’s spent any appreciable time lifting weights would dispute it. Arnold wrote about it in the context of abs specifically.

[mgil]

Ab wheel

Also, Dwayne Johnson has never really had abs, no matter how lean he’s been.

[mbasic]

I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.

please, go on ....

[SnakePlissken]

I think the "they're already trained indirectly" debate will never be solved. That said, I've actually been thinking that my abs are a big piece holding me back from getting a heavier squat because for a while now I've felt like my legs have the power in them, but my torso doesn't and my back has been feeling stout the last year. Doing my own experiment where I'm going to aim to do some direct ab work a few times a week.

I am also convinced that increasing torso strength is very important. And that making your abs larger through directed hypertrophy work is one of the keys to it. If you look at the Westside era lifters they did a great amount of direct abs/lower back work. Their torsos were pretty strong, I think. I'm curious to know if your experiment will work.

A lot of my recent reading on direct ab work is coming from Alex Bromley and Bald Omni Man who are both big proponents of it. I know Alex Bromley has a long torso and short arms (bad deadlifting genetics) but has a pretty strong deadlift and preaches direct Ab work in static and dynamic ranges. This harkens to what @MarkKO is saying. I have a pretty short torso so I always subscribed to the "I don't need direct ab work" but what does doing planks, 90/90 breathing and Bird Dogs a few times a week hurt?

[broseph]

Would love to see a write up on this. I don’t think anyone who’s spent any appreciable time lifting weights would dispute it. Arnold wrote about it in the context of abs specifically.

also @mbasic

I started a new thread about it-
https://exodus-strength.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4496

[Renascent]

I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.

please, go on ....

Heh.

I was finally able to build a comfortable "shelf" for back squats after a few sessions that included these.

They were also responsible for people finally asking if Iifted weights (without me being shirtless).

[Hardartery]

My thinking on the ab thing was that maybe things would tighten up down there with direct work like situps and serratus stuff versus always pushing out on them with the indirect work like Deads and OHP and Squats. There is no such thing as spot reduction of fat, but maybe I can fake it a little.

[broseph]

direct work like situps and serratus stuff versus always pushing out on them with the indirect work like Deads and OHP and Squats.

So many great tangential topics in this thread.

For me, when I was fatter I always “pushed out” my abs when lifting. This made sense because a nice tight belt would squish all the fat and pushing out just felt right.

Since getting leaner though, the belt doesn’t have much to squish (and I’ve been doing more beltless work), and my bracing is much different. Now it’s like I’m trying to pull my ribs to my pelvis like an accordion, but evenly with all the muscles around my trunk.

[Renascent]

direct work like situps and serratus stuff versus always pushing out on them with the indirect work like Deads and OHP and Squats.

So many great tangential topics in this thread.

For me, when I was fatter I always “pushed out” my abs when lifting. This made sense because a nice tight belt would squish all the fat and pushing out just felt right.

Since getting leaner though, the belt doesn’t have much to squish (and I’ve been doing more beltless work), and my bracing is much different. Now it’s like I’m trying to pull my ribs to my pelvis like an accordion, but evenly with all the muscles around my trunk.

My ability to do this effectively, on a given day, seems to dictate how well an overhead press session is going to go.

Any recent direct ab* work -- if the dosage is right -- usually seems to help.

*Obliques too, but, shit ... that DOMS is exquisite. And distracting.

[Hardartery]

direct work like situps and serratus stuff versus always pushing out on them with the indirect work like Deads and OHP and Squats.

So many great tangential topics in this thread.

For me, when I was fatter I always “pushed out” my abs when lifting. This made sense because a nice tight belt would squish all the fat and pushing out just felt right.

Since getting leaner though, the belt doesn’t have much to squish (and I’ve been doing more beltless work), and my bracing is much different. Now it’s like I’m trying to pull my ribs to my pelvis like an accordion, but evenly with all the muscles around my trunk.

I literally never think about the abs during a lift. At all. I am assuming that they are holding on against outward pressure from the diaphragm, which is what I meant by "Always pushing out". I almost never wear a belt, in fact I currently don't even have one with me where I am. I also get nothing from wearing a belt, except a negative effect sometimes, especially on OHP.

[asdf]

I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.

please, go on ....

Heh.

I was finally able to build a comfortable "shelf" for back squats after a few sessions that included these.

They were also responsible for people finally asking if Iifted weights (without me being shirtless).

I often forget that many (most?) people around here don't snatch and clean & jerk. For those who don't, yeah, I could see snatch-grip high-pulls developing traps. But why not just snatch??

[asdf]

Feels related, somehow.