Guns and Shit

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5hout
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Re: Guns and Shit

#1141

Post by 5hout » Tue May 10, 2022 6:49 am

mikeylikey wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:41 pm Would be interesting to see opinions here on the army apparently moving back to a relatively big heavy rifle shooting a big heavy bullet.
It's overdue. The cartridge is perhaps a bit cute, but I'm sure they'll have plenty of time to work out any kinks and the larger projectile and much higher pressures offer a ton of room of interesting developments. I wouldn't be surprised to see some people move from 6.5 CM to .277 Fury. The high pressure is probably going to eat barrels though, and reloading is iffy at best (is it even possible to reuse the hybrid case? Can brass cases be reliably reloaded more than once at 80k psi?)

It'll hit a lot harder though, and with the flat shooting + integrated optics should improve hit percent. Will be more effective vs armor and turn a good amount of questionable cover into concealment. Based on interviews on youtube and other places with a wide variety of people who served with 5.56 and had chances to use more powerful cartridges I can't recall a single person with significant experience who didn't prefer the more powerful cartridges.

I'd also note that one of the concerns during the previous rifle selection was loading up the poor infantry with too much gear. March loads vs fighting loads vs what people actually march with vs what people actually fight with is a controversial topic, but a larger (heavier) round seems to be a damn good trade off given the just silly weights people are carrying anyway.

The interoperability of machine gun vs rifle rounds, meh idk on this factor. It seems nice, but there are still going to be plenty of 7.62 use cases and I wouldn't be surprised if the machine gun use of .277 Fury faded away, or in the alternative in 10-15 years an updated .308 Winchester +P+ or something came along and we were back to rifle rounds and machine gun rounds. This really depends on developments in hybrid ammunition cases paired with improved barrel techs, but sooner or later someone is going to be fielding cobalt barrels and you'll see machine gun pressures climb a ton when that happens.

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1142

Post by mikeylikey » Tue May 10, 2022 8:47 am

mouse wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 5:48 am
mikeylikey wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:41 pm Would be interesting to see opinions here on the army apparently moving back to a relatively big heavy rifle shooting a big heavy bullet.
Will it make 5.56 more bountiful/cheaper? If so I'm all in...
Related question, will it make 5.56/AR15 less politically sensitive/sensational?

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1143

Post by aurelius » Tue May 10, 2022 8:52 am

mikeylikey wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 8:47 amRelated question, will it make 5.56/AR15 less politically exciting?
We would first have to get someone in the media to consistently distinguish between an AR-15, AK-47, or other military-style rifle.

I think the relative 5.56 prices may go up? The military will produce less of it as they ramp up production of 6.8.

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1144

Post by 5hout » Tue May 10, 2022 9:50 am

mikeylikey wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 8:47 am
Related question, will it make 5.56/AR15 less politically sensitive/sensational?
Agree with aurelius, but would add specifically: The new rifle is, essentially, an custom AR-15 with a Gas Piston kit chambered in .277 Fury. It doesn't have interoperability, but very much represents a "next step" of an AR-15 design*. Moving away from DI to short-stroke gas piston, but retaining the upper/lower receiver dichotomy, with a user operable rear pin to break down the rifle and adding a selectable gas feature to run well subsonic/with different ammo.

The media can't reliably distinguish between semi-auto and full-auto, there is zero chance they'll view this as any different at all.

I think it will act medium term to lower 5.56 prices as the civ supply lines are huge and will keep operating, but the demand will drop slightly has "hurr durr home operators" will naturally pay out the ass for the new rifle/ammo system reducing prices overall.

*this is somewhat unfair, as basically every modern semi-auto could be described as similar if you accept changing gas system, stroke length and cartridge.

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1145

Post by mikeylikey » Tue May 10, 2022 10:30 am

5hout wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 9:50 am The new rifle is, essentially, an custom AR-15 with a Gas Piston kit chambered in .277 Fury. It doesn't have interoperability, but very much represents a "next step" of an AR-15 design*. Moving away from DI to short-stroke gas piston, but retaining the upper/lower receiver dichotomy, with a user operable rear pin to break down the rifle and adding a selectable gas feature to run well subsonic/with different ammo.
cartridge.
It's brown tho

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1146

Post by aurelius » Tue May 10, 2022 11:02 am

mikeylikey wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:30 amIt's brown tho
Coyote

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1147

Post by mouse » Wed May 11, 2022 2:55 am

aurelius wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:02 am
mikeylikey wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:30 amIt's brown tho
Coyote
Desert tan

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5hout
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Re: Guns and Shit

#1148

Post by 5hout » Wed May 11, 2022 5:19 am

mouse wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:55 am
aurelius wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:02 am
mikeylikey wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:30 amIt's brown tho
Coyote
Desert tan
Is desert tren what you get to make it shoot a .277 Fury +P round?

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1149

Post by mbasic » Wed May 11, 2022 7:55 am

mikeylikey wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:41 pm Would be interesting to see opinions here on the army apparently moving back to a relatively big heavy rifle shooting a big heavy bullet.
I too think the 556 has seen its day and needs to be upgraded, but its a really weird deal.

Some of the videos I've seen of it (MCX Spear), it seems like it kicks like a mofo.
Which is doubly odd because it does weigh a lot more.
So the extra increase in chamber pressure is doing it for sure.

Sure, an experienced shooter, who is a 'bigger guy', can handle it .... but IDK about the every day average infantryman person, which might be a 150# female .... remember, this is the standard issue weapon to all of the grunts.
Maybe the obesity epidemic helps with this, IDK. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That high tech scope and all of the so called improved ballistics may not matter so much if average G.I.Joe has developed a case of the Flinchies from training/using it. It could shoot like a laser and it wouldn't matter. Good luck with quick follow up shots...for me, the world disappears for a sec after squeezing off a .308.

Full auto will be a joke, and now they are back to the M14 problem. I would say just don't even offer select fire .... but with all that said, I guess they really won't use full auto at all, and train that way. Say, the light machinegun in the squad goes down....at least someone can do some quasi-suppressive fire if they (still) have full auto .... other than that, I would hope the train out of it.

I think the silencer/suppressor isn't really really going to amount to much (a "net" gain).
Its like that HAD no choice but to put that on there....
Its got the shorter 13" barrel (it been my experience shorter barrels are way louder).
Its a bigger caliber and case than 556.
On top of all that, I'm sure that massive increase in chamber pressure result more dB than otherwise (than say a regular .308)
It doesn't look like a very big can at all, especially for a bigger-than-556 round....and its probably rated for full auto and mili-Tard use .... so I'm sure its mostly a heavy walled body, and much less "baffley" on the inside than it could of been.
And now you have a long ass rifle again.

I've heard 8.2 pounds unloaded .... and people are unsure if that includes the suppressor or not, which might be 2 lbs for all of its heavyduty-ness....and then add that ridiculous optic they are going to add on even more weight. It might be a 10 pound gun. The light-machine gun version is 12 and 1/2 from what I've heard.

I guess if your infantry/soldiers are totally mechanized as far as moving themselves around,
and not rucking so much, and/or just holding/defending a static position ... it probably not so bad.

Only other defense for all this^ I can think of .... is maybe the way we use our infantry men have changed (again), and none of those negatives will matter....and they studied this a bit (I hope).

If I take a 150+ yard shot, its almost never standing. Usually kneeling, prone, or leaning on something and/or resting the gun on something.
Same thing with the full auto I'd imagine ...MOST of the RARE times you would even use full auto, you would be in somekind of temporary machine-gunner's role laying down some suppressive fire....behind cover or something. You wouldn't be standing upright in the wide open.

What are the CQB guys going to use? Are they going to hack that barrel down even farther? Keep M4's and their ammo around (down regulated to a sub machine gun role).

And what about the rest of NATO, who signed up to use 556 or 762x51/.308 ...

Prediction: The initial rollout doesn't work out, and that rifle could easily be switched out to .308

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1150

Post by aurelius » Wed May 11, 2022 8:19 am

@mbasic Here is a review of the XM5 (MCX Spear): https://www.tierthreetactical.com/maste ... a471c263d9

The XM5 is essentially a modern, piston driven AR-10. They thought the XM5 was very controllable and even allowed short full auto bursts.

The optics is anything but silly. This 1-8x variable magnification optic is smart, and it incorporates several features that are likely to increase first round impacts. It incorporates a laser rangefinder, atmospheric sensor suite, and a ballistic calculator into the unit. This data is incorporated into the reticle. It allows you to hold the crosshairs on the target without needing to aim off, or dial on the turrets. In effect the sight does much of the aiming for you. Every infantryman a marksman. I think this with a rifle that is lethal up to 1000m is a force multiplier.

The article does mention concerns about the increased weight. But I think the 180 rounds currently being carried with the AR-15 weapon system won't be required with the new XM5. Probably end up around the 120 round mark (6 mags). To give a comparison: WW2 soldiers carried about 100 rounds with the M1 Garand. The M1 also weighed about 10 pounds. The XM5 system comes in unloaded at 10.4 pounds including optics.

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1151

Post by mikeylikey » Wed May 11, 2022 9:57 am

mbasic wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:55 am That high tech scope and all of the so called improved ballistics may not matter so much if average G.I.Joe has developed a case of the Flinchies from training/using it. It could shoot like a laser and it wouldn't matter. Good luck with quick follow up shots...for me, the world disappears for a sec after squeezing off a .308.

Full auto will be a joke, and now they are back to the M14 problem. I would say just don't even offer select fire .... but with all that said, I guess they really won't use full auto at all, and train that way. Say, the light machinegun in the squad goes down....at least someone can do some quasi-suppressive fire if they (still) have full auto .... other than that, I would hope the train out of it.

I think the silencer/suppressor isn't really really going to amount to much (a "net" gain).
How much does suppression help with flinching? I mean none of these systems actually *hurt* so what of the notion that a shooter could manage a little more felt recoil not having to anticipate a 170db concussion? I don't pretend to know where the break even is on that.

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1152

Post by mbasic » Wed May 11, 2022 4:10 pm

aurelius wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:19 am @mbasic Here is a review of the XM5 (MCX Spear): https://www.tierthreetactical.com/maste ... a471c263d9

The XM5 is essentially a modern, piston driven AR-10. They thought the XM5 was very controllable and even allowed short full auto bursts.

The optics is anything but silly. This 1-8x variable magnification optic is smart, and it incorporates several features that are likely to increase first round impacts. It incorporates a laser rangefinder, atmospheric sensor suite, and a ballistic calculator into the unit. This data is incorporated into the reticle. It allows you to hold the crosshairs on the target without needing to aim off, or dial on the turrets. In effect the sight does much of the aiming for you. Every infantryman a marksman. I think this with a rifle that is lethal up to 1000m is a force multiplier.

The article does mention concerns about the increased weight. But I think the 180 rounds currently being carried with the AR-15 weapon system won't be required with the new XM5. Probably end up around the 120 round mark (6 mags). To give a comparison: WW2 soldiers carried about 100 rounds with the M1 Garand. The M1 also weighed about 10 pounds. The XM5 system comes in unloaded at 10.4 pounds including optics.
I think it will all work out in the end; they'll make it work.

....mostly because we (kinda) train our general purpose soldiers to shoot half-ass decently as opposed to most other armies....and we'll figure out the best tactics as we go along and train for that. That matters a lot.

What could possibly go wrong with that optic? Seems like its fairly complicated and sophisticated ... not for the user, but the optic itself ....internally , software and sensor wise. Seems too good to be true. I would like back iron sights, and way to quickly discard the Big Blue optic. I don't think that's an option on there currently.....I bet the optic costs twice as much as the gun, or more.

I guess if you reaaaaalllly learn how to use that weapon effectively, you would not have to carry a shit-ton of ammo....because you hit and kill shit all the better than before.

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1153

Post by aurelius » Thu May 12, 2022 8:20 am

mikeylikey wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 9:57 amHow much does suppression help with flinching? I mean none of these systems actually *hurt* so what of the notion that a shooter could manage a little more felt recoil not having to anticipate a 170db concussion? I don't pretend to know where the break even is on that.
In short: the suppressor will help with felt recoil.

Over half the world uses 7.62x51mm ammunition. I think concerns that the 6.8x51mm is 'uncontrollable' are a bit overblown. The Army intends to field 135 grain and 155 grain ammunition. Probably standard ammo will be the 135 grain ammunition.
Last edited by aurelius on Thu May 12, 2022 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1154

Post by BostonRugger » Thu May 12, 2022 8:31 am

I know we're saying the optic is going to get better hit rate for first shots, but I'd be hesitant about how many rounds of this cartridge size you could fit in a loadout. Best thing about intermediate cartridge is 30 in a mag and tons of mags on body or in a pack. Going down from 300+ rounds to half that much seems sub-optimal. But what do I know.

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1155

Post by mikeylikey » Thu May 12, 2022 1:02 pm

mbasic wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:10 pm
I guess if you reaaaaalllly learn how to use that weapon effectively, you would not have to carry a shit-ton of ammo....because you hit and kill shit all the better than before.
I mean, there's a reason they carry 300 bullets but only 3 grenades...

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1156

Post by mbasic » Thu May 12, 2022 2:15 pm

...
Last edited by mbasic on Thu May 12, 2022 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1157

Post by mbasic » Thu May 12, 2022 2:46 pm

aurelius wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:20 am Over half the world uses 7.62x51mm ammunition.
Riiiiigggghht .... I mean there's a reason they just didn't go with 762x51.
They wanted "more" .... flatter trajectory, and more speed to pierce body armor.
More is more. More doesn't come for free.
Apparently the 762x51 wasn't going to cut the mustard.
And its not like they just re-tipped a 762x51 case with a .270/6.5 projectile.
....remember the 80,000 psi chamber pressures? and 135 gr projectile flying out @ 3000 ft/sec.?
They had to reinforce the brass case with a steel ass.
I would imagine with the (only) 13" barrel, they needed the extra oompf of the higher chamber pressure spike.
All that MUST return more energy back to the gun and shooter one way or another .... because Newton.

I think concerns that the 6.8x51mm is 'uncontrollable' are a bit overblown.
In full auto is probably a joke. 762x51 ain't great in full auto either....out of std rifle.
I'm dubious how effective full auto is, even for suppressive fire, out this weapon.
Especially now that they'll be carrying half to 60% ammo .... you won't want guys spraying-n-praying their precious rounds all over the place.


All that aside .... hey, can we all agree we are all glad they didn't go with the other option?

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1158

Post by aurelius » Thu May 12, 2022 3:02 pm

mbasic wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 2:46 pmstuff
You could watch the video in the link I provided. They had access to and fired the weapon. Even in full auto. Their experience and resulting opinion differs from your conjecture.

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1159

Post by mbasic » Fri May 13, 2022 5:52 am

aurelius wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 3:02 pm
mbasic wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 2:46 pmstuff
You could watch the video in the link I provided. They had access to and fired the weapon. Even in full auto. Their experience and resulting opinion differs from your conjecture.
yeah, you linked an article. If you are talking about the embedded TFB video at the very end, I saw that I while ago.
That guy shown shooting full auto (where they didn't want to show his fullbody and how bad he had to lean into it) ....the guy with the goofy m'tash, he works for SIG, appears in most all of videos for that new rifle, is a little 'beefy', and has 22 years in the military, and its a quasi-weapons expert.
He's not a grunt, draftee, greenie-solider, etc learning to shoot a new rifle.

With that said, its really fucking telling there's no video of the host of TFB shooting full auto (only takes single shots).
That host of TFB shoots all the time, and they didn't want to include a clip of him rattling off even three rounds in full auto? lol wut?
You took the brand new experimental bad ass battle rifle to the range and didn't shoot it in full auto? or at least do a mag dump?
OR, just chose not to include that B-roll footage for reasons?
Could have stuffed only 3 or 5 rounds a mag and do a burst? nah

Blue shirt and black guy look like there are getting hit pretty hard in slow-mo shooting singles alone.

( The shooting on full auto on the ground with a bipod doesn't count of course, and that's the LMG version, using the same round but a different gun.... that's a 12#+ gun and on a bi-pod shooting prone. I think that LMG thing has a pseudo recoil operated system; i.e. barrel retracts to soak up recoil )

I'm jesus fuck, its basically a SIG promotional video. No one is going to be objective here ....

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Re: Guns and Shit

#1160

Post by aurelius » Fri May 13, 2022 7:45 am

mbasic wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:52 am No one is going to be objective here ....
The Army was. I think if the rifle was unshootable, it would not have been selected.

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