Isn't all programming bullshit?

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Zak
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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#21

Post by Zak » Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:37 pm

I think it's kind of bullshit. At least insofar as a program makes or relies on projections over the long-term, even implicitly.

I really try to keep in mind the "all models are wrong, some are useful" maxim when thinking about this stuff. Lately, I think the most correct or at least most useful way to plan training is kind of a meathead/blue collar version of Emerging Strategies, which is to say keeping with the spirit of "do a thing until it stops working, then do another thing," but not incorporating all of the metrics RTS uses. I have some doubts about the utility of a lot of those metrics, and I think an experienced lifter's instincts are probably going to hit closer to the mark if they are suggesting something at odds with whatever stress index or TRAC or whatever is telling you.

In essence, I think you should:
1. Establish what you want your training week to look like. 3 full body days, 4 upper/lower, RTS-style 4 full body days, whatever... I think most of us gravitate toward a particular setup and I wouldn't fight it.
2. Build a training model for each lift. I think just using intuition and experience can get you as close to "correct" as anything else. There needs to be some kind of benchmark for assessing progress, even if it's totally qualitative.
3. Attack the plan until it stops working, then take a week or so off or do really light work to heal and resensitize.
4. Build a new model and attack. Maybe try for some contrast with what you just did.
5. if one lift shits out way before the others, your choices are either tweak the model and forge ahead, or put it in a holding pattern until the end of the "block."

An important caveat though is that if you're a coach with a large stable of lifters, you probably do need more hard-coded systems in place to manage things. If you're self-coached, you don't need to articulate or justify your decision making to anybody else. I think an experienced and tuned-in lifter can intuit the right thing to do without necessarily being able to explain the rationale.

Goat
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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#22

Post by Goat » Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:22 pm

The more time goes by, the more I like Dan John. Especially with regards to how training programs should realistically be matched to the population you're talking about.

My non-authority opinion is that super specifically planned out, long term, high workload programs work great for people who are super bought in. They are passionate and totally dedicated to training, their nutrition is dialed in, their sleep is dialed in, and their lives (to an extent) revolve around training.

For everyone else? I'm not so sure, and I think most people are "everyone else".

I think it's useful to ask "how bought in am I *really*?". If your nutrition is all over the place, you're sleep is far from ideal, and you're not a competitive lifter to begin with, I'm not sure I see the value in those über-meticulously planned programs. I've watched people who were not actually *that* bought in convince themselves that they were, only to burn themselves out in a month of training like that and make no progress.

I think training principles and sketched out plans might be more appropriate for the vast majority of the population than some block periodized soviet-chinese-nicaraguan monstrosity sold by one of eight million internet coaches.

Same with nutrition, actually. People who are passionate about optimizing their nutrition will go the IIFYM route. Normal people on the other hand usually fucking HATE it and can't stick to it, and so would probably be better served by following nutritional guidelines rather than a meticulously crafted and measured plan.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#23

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:39 pm

Zak wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:37 pm I think it's kind of bullshit. At least insofar as a program makes or relies on projections over the long-term, even implicitly.

I really try to keep in mind the "all models are wrong, some are useful" maxim when thinking about this stuff. Lately, I think the most correct or at least most useful way to plan training is kind of a meathead/blue collar version of Emerging Strategies, which is to say keeping with the spirit of "do a thing until it stops working, then do another thing," but not incorporating all of the metrics RTS uses. I have some doubts about the utility of a lot of those metrics, and I think an experienced lifter's instincts are probably going to hit closer to the mark if they are suggesting something at odds with whatever stress index or TRAC or whatever is telling you.

In essence, I think you should:
1. Establish what you want your training week to look like. 3 full body days, 4 upper/lower, RTS-style 4 full body days, whatever... I think most of us gravitate toward a particular setup and I wouldn't fight it.
2. Build a training model for each lift. I think just using intuition and experience can get you as close to "correct" as anything else. There needs to be some kind of benchmark for assessing progress, even if it's totally qualitative.
3. Attack the plan until it stops working, then take a week or so off or do really light work to heal and resensitize.
4. Build a new model and attack. Maybe try for some contrast with what you just did.
5. if one lift shits out way before the others, your choices are either tweak the model and forge ahead, or put it in a holding pattern until the end of the "block."

An important caveat though is that if you're a coach with a large stable of lifters, you probably do need more hard-coded systems in place to manage things. If you're self-coached, you don't need to articulate or justify your decision making to anybody else. I think an experienced and tuned-in lifter can intuit the right thing to do without necessarily being able to explain the rationale.
I think stress index and HNFM can be really useful when building the training model (I am assuming training model includes sets and reps). And they are both very simple calculations. Aim for a stress index of 3 and/or a HNFM of 500 for one lift on one day, and most likely you're going to have an appropriate dosage of work. Adjust the targets if your recovery is poor.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#24

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:46 pm

Goat wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:22 pm The more time goes by, the more I like Dan John. Especially with regards to how training programs should realistically be matched to the population you're talking about.

My non-authority opinion is that super specifically planned out, long term, high workload programs work great for people who are super bought in. They are passionate and totally dedicated to training, their nutrition is dialed in, their sleep is dialed in, and their lives (to an extent) revolve around training.

For everyone else? I'm not so sure, and I think most people are "everyone else".

I think it's useful to ask "how bought in am I *really*?". If your nutrition is all over the place, you're sleep is far from ideal, and you're not a competitive lifter to begin with, I'm not sure I see the value in those über-meticulously planned programs. I've watched people who were not actually *that* bought in convince themselves that they were, only to burn themselves out in a month of training like that and make no progress.

I think training principles and sketched out plans might be more appropriate for the vast majority of the population than some block periodized soviet-chinese-nicaraguan monstrosity sold by one of eight million internet coaches.

Same with nutrition, actually. People who are passionate about optimizing their nutrition will go the IIFYM route. Normal people on the other hand usually fucking HATE it and can't stick to it, and so would probably be better served by following nutritional guidelines rather than a meticulously crafted and measured plan.
I'm not a high level lifter so I wouldn't know but do high level lifters really plan everything in advance without any form of course correction ? Like say they're 5 weeks away from a meet and they're getting weaker every week, do they stick to the plan ? I would imagine that that all have a coach handling their training, and that changes get made each week if the response is not what it should be, but once again I have no experience with this.

Now I agree with you that there is a problem with programs (some of which monstrosities) sold as templates by the eight million internet coaches. Templates are a starting point if you are new to lifting, but afterwards you need to become your own coach.

As far as nutrition is concerned though, why would people who are concerned about their nutrition choose IIFYM ? I'm quite concerned about my nutrition and I would never do IIFYM, because I believe that eating bro food is much better than IIFYM.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#25

Post by Goat » Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:21 pm

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:46 pm
Goat wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:22 pm The more time goes by, the more I like Dan John. Especially with regards to how training programs should realistically be matched to the population you're talking about.

My non-authority opinion is that super specifically planned out, long term, high workload programs work great for people who are super bought in. They are passionate and totally dedicated to training, their nutrition is dialed in, their sleep is dialed in, and their lives (to an extent) revolve around training.

For everyone else? I'm not so sure, and I think most people are "everyone else".

I think it's useful to ask "how bought in am I *really*?". If your nutrition is all over the place, you're sleep is far from ideal, and you're not a competitive lifter to begin with, I'm not sure I see the value in those über-meticulously planned programs. I've watched people who were not actually *that* bought in convince themselves that they were, only to burn themselves out in a month of training like that and make no progress.

I think training principles and sketched out plans might be more appropriate for the vast majority of the population than some block periodized soviet-chinese-nicaraguan monstrosity sold by one of eight million internet coaches.

Same with nutrition, actually. People who are passionate about optimizing their nutrition will go the IIFYM route. Normal people on the other hand usually fucking HATE it and can't stick to it, and so would probably be better served by following nutritional guidelines rather than a meticulously crafted and measured plan.
I'm not a high level lifter so I wouldn't know but do high level lifters really plan everything in advance without any form of course correction ? Like say they're 5 weeks away from a meet and they're getting weaker every week, do they stick to the plan ? I would imagine that that all have a coach handling their training, and that changes get made each week if the response is not what it should be, but once again I have no experience with this.

Now I agree with you that there is a problem with programs (some of which monstrosities) sold as templates by the eight million internet coaches. Templates are a starting point if you are new to lifting, but afterwards you need to become your own coach.

As far as nutrition is concerned though, why would people who are concerned about their nutrition choose IIFYM ? I'm quite concerned about my nutrition and I would never do IIFYM, because I believe that eating bro food is much better than IIFYM.
IIFYM because I would assume that people who are concerned with optimizing nutrition would want to strictly control their intake of each macronutrient, and IIFYM is the most precise way of doing that.

I mean I doubt it's necessary to get the most out of yourself from a performance standpoint, but precision? It's by definition the most precise thing you can do.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#26

Post by Zak » Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:51 pm

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:39 pm
Zak wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:37 pm I think it's kind of bullshit. At least insofar as a program makes or relies on projections over the long-term, even implicitly.

I really try to keep in mind the "all models are wrong, some are useful" maxim when thinking about this stuff. Lately, I think the most correct or at least most useful way to plan training is kind of a meathead/blue collar version of Emerging Strategies, which is to say keeping with the spirit of "do a thing until it stops working, then do another thing," but not incorporating all of the metrics RTS uses. I have some doubts about the utility of a lot of those metrics, and I think an experienced lifter's instincts are probably going to hit closer to the mark if they are suggesting something at odds with whatever stress index or TRAC or whatever is telling you.

In essence, I think you should:
1. Establish what you want your training week to look like. 3 full body days, 4 upper/lower, RTS-style 4 full body days, whatever... I think most of us gravitate toward a particular setup and I wouldn't fight it.
2. Build a training model for each lift. I think just using intuition and experience can get you as close to "correct" as anything else. There needs to be some kind of benchmark for assessing progress, even if it's totally qualitative.
3. Attack the plan until it stops working, then take a week or so off or do really light work to heal and resensitize.
4. Build a new model and attack. Maybe try for some contrast with what you just did.
5. if one lift shits out way before the others, your choices are either tweak the model and forge ahead, or put it in a holding pattern until the end of the "block."

An important caveat though is that if you're a coach with a large stable of lifters, you probably do need more hard-coded systems in place to manage things. If you're self-coached, you don't need to articulate or justify your decision making to anybody else. I think an experienced and tuned-in lifter can intuit the right thing to do without necessarily being able to explain the rationale.
I think stress index and HNFM can be really useful when building the training model (I am assuming training model includes sets and reps). And they are both very simple calculations. Aim for a stress index of 3 and/or a HNFM of 500 for one lift on one day, and most likely you're going to have an appropriate dosage of work. Adjust the targets if your recovery is poor.
I think those things and INOL and the like are useful as sanity checks, but each lift is really in its own silo. It can be an issue particularly in the RTS universe where exercise selection is varied and changes a fair amount.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#27

Post by MarkKO » Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:19 pm

I like analogies, so I'll offer this.

Most programs are like architectural drawings. They look amazing, and assume a whole bunch of things go absolutely perfectly with no reference to reality.

Training principles are more like building codes. They stipulate what needs to be done for training to actually work in the way you want it to, without specifying exactly what lifts, sets, reps, volume, load, etc needs to be used. Instead they usually have fairly broad requirements and allow for a fair amount of variation and account for external factors, and as long as those are fulfilled things work reasonably well.

Actually training is like building a house. To get it done the program is going to need to be brought into line with the actual principles, and for that to happen you're going to need to account for kinds of things like available time, recovery capacity, training age, etc in much the same way a builder needs to account for what the ground under the house is doing, what materials are available, their budget, etc.

A good program is built around training principles, so it already takes into account reality. The only stumbling block then is user competence and experience. Inexperienced people are the ones most likely to have issues, because they don't have the capacity yet to make the small adjustments needed on a day to day basis. If they keep training for years and are engaged mentally with what's happening they gain enough experience to be able to make those adjustments as they go.

So yes, to an extent programming is BS in the way that architecture is BS; but good programming is very far from BS because it is based in reality.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#28

Post by AlanMackey » Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:40 pm

Goat wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:22 pm The more time goes by, the more I like Dan John.
Image

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#29

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:56 am

Zak wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:51 pm
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:39 pm
Zak wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:37 pm I think it's kind of bullshit. At least insofar as a program makes or relies on projections over the long-term, even implicitly.

I really try to keep in mind the "all models are wrong, some are useful" maxim when thinking about this stuff. Lately, I think the most correct or at least most useful way to plan training is kind of a meathead/blue collar version of Emerging Strategies, which is to say keeping with the spirit of "do a thing until it stops working, then do another thing," but not incorporating all of the metrics RTS uses. I have some doubts about the utility of a lot of those metrics, and I think an experienced lifter's instincts are probably going to hit closer to the mark if they are suggesting something at odds with whatever stress index or TRAC or whatever is telling you.

In essence, I think you should:
1. Establish what you want your training week to look like. 3 full body days, 4 upper/lower, RTS-style 4 full body days, whatever... I think most of us gravitate toward a particular setup and I wouldn't fight it.
2. Build a training model for each lift. I think just using intuition and experience can get you as close to "correct" as anything else. There needs to be some kind of benchmark for assessing progress, even if it's totally qualitative.
3. Attack the plan until it stops working, then take a week or so off or do really light work to heal and resensitize.
4. Build a new model and attack. Maybe try for some contrast with what you just did.
5. if one lift shits out way before the others, your choices are either tweak the model and forge ahead, or put it in a holding pattern until the end of the "block."

An important caveat though is that if you're a coach with a large stable of lifters, you probably do need more hard-coded systems in place to manage things. If you're self-coached, you don't need to articulate or justify your decision making to anybody else. I think an experienced and tuned-in lifter can intuit the right thing to do without necessarily being able to explain the rationale.
I think stress index and HNFM can be really useful when building the training model (I am assuming training model includes sets and reps). And they are both very simple calculations. Aim for a stress index of 3 and/or a HNFM of 500 for one lift on one day, and most likely you're going to have an appropriate dosage of work. Adjust the targets if your recovery is poor.
I think those things and INOL and the like are useful as sanity checks, but each lift is really in its own silo. It can be an issue particularly in the RTS universe where exercise selection is varied and changes a fair amount.
Yeah I agree with that. Through experimentation you can figure out what are the target values to which you best respond.

.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#30

Post by Adams » Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:53 am

Goat wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:22 pm The more time goes by, the more I like Dan John. Especially with regards to how training programs should realistically be matched to the population you're talking about.

My non-authority opinion is that super specifically planned out, long term, high workload programs work great for people who are super bought in. They are passionate and totally dedicated to training, their nutrition is dialed in, their sleep is dialed in, and their lives (to an extent) revolve around training.

For everyone else? I'm not so sure, and I think most people are "everyone else".

I think it's useful to ask "how bought in am I *really*?". If your nutrition is all over the place, you're sleep is far from ideal, and you're not a competitive lifter to begin with, I'm not sure I see the value in those über-meticulously planned programs. I've watched people who were not actually *that* bought in convince themselves that they were, only to burn themselves out in a month of training like that and make no progress.

I think training principles and sketched out plans might be more appropriate for the vast majority of the population than some block periodized soviet-chinese-nicaraguan monstrosity sold by one of eight million internet coaches.

Same with nutrition, actually. People who are passionate about optimizing their nutrition will go the IIFYM route. Normal people on the other hand usually fucking HATE it and can't stick to it, and so would probably be better served by following nutritional guidelines rather than a meticulously crafted and measured plan.
I agree with all this. Most people aren't dedicated enough to spend as much time thinking about programming as they do.

My best progress was made after reading an article by Dan John on just using big plates. I spent 3 months squatting 140kg, then went up to 160kg,180kg and then 200kg. It was the most simple plan ever and people told me what I was doing was stupid, but at the time all I did was work, eat, sleep and train. I did 230kg randomly when I felt like trying it. I didn't worry about small details.

My progress is slow right now, but I know it's because I barely sleep, work every day, I'm not eating enough and have a girlfriend who's hard work :lol: . My program doesn't really matter until I get the basics right and that's where my focus is on improving.

I regularly have people coming into the gym, nearly always competitive powerlifters, worrying about small details about their programs or things like what macros they should eat while they are still binge drinking at the weekend, not sleeping enough and training with zero intensity. They're never very strong. They aren't interested when I tell them none of what they're worrying about will make much difference and are always shocked when I tell them it's not something I give much thought to. I guess concentrating on sleeping, nutrition, consistency and working hard isn't as exciting as hoping the find the secret program that will help with gains.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#31

Post by alphagamma » Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:28 am

We just have to find out the optimal program ourselves. Everybody has their own suitable programming archetype, which might not be the same as what Jordan/BBM prescribes.

Just as pushing yourselves too hard SS style might not work out well for you, doing 20 RPE 6-7 sets of 5 might not work either.

Like sure, we agree that doing an RPE 11 DL set is bad, but do we really need to copy BBM and have multiple RPE 6-8 DL sets? That might even be worse from a recovery standpoint.

We also can have stupid biases like preferring to do 5x5 because it looks symmetrical and other programs do the same even though 5x4 or even 5x2 is enough stress.

For me, I have long legs and arms, so my recovery is terrible. I don't do any DLs and high volume upper body stuff never worked for me. I am just doing 2 days a week with 5x3-4 / 1x5 for my SQ and BP with zero assistance but yet I am making progress. I am not atrophying or anything.
Last edited by alphagamma on Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#32

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:40 am

alphagamma wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:28 am We just have to find out the optimal program ourselves. Everybody has their own suitable programming archetype, which might not be the same as what Jordan/BBM prescribes.

Just as pushing yourselves too hard SS style might not work out well for you, doing 20 RPE 6-7 sets of 5 might not work either.

Like sure, we agree that doing an RPE 11 DL set is bad, but do we really need to copy BBM and have multiple RPE 6-8 DL sets? That might even be worse from a recovery standpoint.

We also can have stupid biases like preferring to do 5x5 because it looks symmetrical and other programs do the same even though 5x4 or even 5x2 is enough from a recovery standpoint.

For me, I have long legs and arms, so my recovery is terrible. I don't do any DLs and high volume upper body stuff never worked for me. I am just doing 2 days a week with 5x3-4 / 1x5 for my SQ and BP with zero assistance but yet I am making progress. I am not atrophying or anything.
What you say about symmetry is funny because it's true. Whenever I plan training I always find that some part of my brain instinctively tries to force symmetry so that the training week "looks nice". Like some sort of meathead OCD type of thing.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#33

Post by AlanMackey » Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:52 am

Adams wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:53 amMy best progress was made after reading an article by Dan John on just using big plates. I spent 3 months squatting 140kg, then went up to 160kg,180kg and then 200kg. It was the most simple plan ever and people told me what I was doing was stupid, but at the time all I did was work, eat, sleep and train. I did 230kg randomly when I felt like trying it. I didn't worry about small details.
Glad to see you here.

Your post on DJ's forum is, to this day, one of the solidest piece of litfing advice I've ever come across.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#34

Post by DanCR » Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:08 pm

AlanMackey wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:52 am Your post on DJ's forum is, to this day, one of the solidest piece of litfing advice I've ever come across.
Link plz?
Adams wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:53 am My best progress was made after reading an article by Dan John on just using big plates. I spent 3 months squatting 140kg, then went up to 160kg,180kg and then 200kg. It was the most simple plan ever and people told me what I was doing was stupid, but at the time all I did was work, eat, sleep and train. I did 230kg randomly when I felt like trying it. I didn't worry about small details.
Perhaps this is what you addressed on Dan’s forum? You’ve hooked me hard here, in that I know the particular article that you’re referencing and as a natural minimalist, always found the idea fascinating. That said, despite really digging most of Dan’s writing, I also always kind of had the idea that this particular advice probably was bullshit; I guess I came to believe (and felt like my experience reflected) Rippetoe’s idea (paraphrasing here) that 275 will never feel light until you can handle 315, etc. Apparently your experience was different and I’d love to hear more about it. For instance, when/how did you decide on each occasion that it was time to make the next 20 kg leap?

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#35

Post by AlanMackey » Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:37 pm

DCR wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:08 pmLink plz?
Here you go... https://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/sho ... msearch/1/

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#36

Post by KyleSchuant » Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:10 pm

janoycresva wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:53 pm My injury rate is about the same on any programming I've tried with the exception of BBM templates, which maimed me every single time.
Satisfying our morbid curiosity, can you share how and why?
Adams wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:53 amI guess concentrating on sleeping, nutrition, consistency and working hard isn't as exciting as hoping the find the secret program that will help with gains.
Stevie P had a video on this once, where he says, "You know what, I've never seen a gym bro say to another, hey buddy, come here I'll tell you my training secret: I'm gonna lift some really heavy fucking weights and eat lots of good food for about ten fuckin' years and see if that builds any muscle, don't tell anyone, though."

As I said in Adams' thread, that ten years part is the hardest bit.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#37

Post by Adams » Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:30 am

KyleSchuant wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:10 pm
janoycresva wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:53 pm My injury rate is about the same on any programming I've tried with the exception of BBM templates, which maimed me every single time.
Satisfying our morbid curiosity, can you share how and why?
Adams wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:53 amI guess concentrating on sleeping, nutrition, consistency and working hard isn't as exciting as hoping the find the secret program that will help with gains.
Stevie P had a video on this once, where he says, "You know what, I've never seen a gym bro say to another, hey buddy, come here I'll tell you my training secret: I'm gonna lift some really heavy fucking weights and eat lots of good food for about ten fuckin' years and see if that builds any muscle, don't tell anyone, though."

As I said in Adams' thread, that ten years part is the hardest bit.
I like that. It's so true. I've seen lifters come and go in my time. They make good progress for a couple of years and then either stop or hardly train. It's rare I meet someone around my age (coming up to 40) that still trains fairly hard.
AlanMackey wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:37 pm
DCR wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:08 pmLink plz?
Here you go... https://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/sho ... msearch/1/
I had forgotten about that post. I learned a lot during that period about what is actually important in training.
DCR wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:08 pm
AlanMackey wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:52 am Your post on DJ's forum is, to this day, one of the solidest piece of litfing advice I've ever come across.
Link plz?
Adams wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:53 am My best progress was made after reading an article by Dan John on just using big plates. I spent 3 months squatting 140kg, then went up to 160kg,180kg and then 200kg. It was the most simple plan ever and people told me what I was doing was stupid, but at the time all I did was work, eat, sleep and train. I did 230kg randomly when I felt like trying it. I didn't worry about small details.
Perhaps this is what you addressed on Dan’s forum? You’ve hooked me hard here, in that I know the particular article that you’re referencing and as a natural minimalist, always found the idea fascinating. That said, despite really digging most of Dan’s writing, I also always kind of had the idea that this particular advice probably was bullshit; I guess I came to believe (and felt like my experience reflected) Rippetoe’s idea (paraphrasing here) that 275 will never feel light until you can handle 315, etc. Apparently your experience was different and I’d love to hear more about it. For instance, when/how did you decide on each occasion that it was time to make the next 20 kg leap?
I've seen that kind of thing said by people from Starting Strength and always found it silly. They have books to sell though. You'll be able to handle 315 when 275 feels light.

I remember going up to 140kg x 14, 160kg x 14, 180kg x 10 and 200kg x 7. Without looking back I'm pretty sure I was alternating 160kg and 180kg period and then alternating between 180kg and 200kg. I've done the same for bench press, but I used 10kg jumps.

I'm not claiming it's the best way to train, but I agree with Dan John when he said that cutting down on the options would be best for some people. It stops me from overthinking my program and changing things all the time. Maybe for most people, it would be better to do 10kg jumps on the squat and deadlift and 5kg jumps on the upper body stuff. I might actually try that myself now.


This thread has made me sit down and look at improving my diet and making sure I get more calories in and improving my sleep routine. I turn 40 in May and want to hit some all-time PRs again and I'm doing a half marathon in September.

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DanCR
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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#38

Post by DanCR » Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:59 am

Thanks, @AlanMackey and @Adams. The thread over at Dan’s place and the info here are very helpful.

I’m currently working on a very simple “one or two top sets, add weight when you get 10 reps” thing that I got from an old and great Stan Efferding article. Down the road, it wouldn’t be hard to segue into something like this, adding a few more reps while also hitting some low rep work after with a big plate increment.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#39

Post by AlanMackey » Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:36 am

DCR wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:59 am Thanks, @AlanMackey and @Adams. The thread over at Dan’s place and the info here are very helpful.

I’m currently working on a very simple “one or two top sets, add weight when you get 10 reps” thing that I got from an old and great Stan Efferding article. Down the road, it wouldn’t be hard to segue into something like this, adding a few more reps while also hitting some low rep work after with a big plate increment.
I like it!

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#40

Post by DanCR » Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:32 pm

I’m sure that I or someone else has linked it before, but this is the article that I mentioned, which has some bearing on this thread: https://npcnewsonline.com/powerbuilding ... gym/63930/

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