Isn't all programming bullshit?

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broseph
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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#61

Post by broseph » Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:51 am

For a long time I've thought programming is more bullshitty than we'd like to admit, but it is certainly not total bullshit.

I think the bullshittiness is mostly in the way a program convinces you that you're making progress. See how you had to lift lighter weights today- it's because that last session was so effective. Hey look, it's been a few weeks, you now have permission to lift a little bit more this time- see how strong you're getting!

I think a lot of that stuff is insignificant with regards to the signal:noise ratio, but it's mentally important to LOTS of people, which keeps them consistent and forces them to progress, which are probably the most important variables of all.

Once you start seeing through the bullshit though, you see the pillars holding up all the frills. Periodization is important. Strength skill is different than hypertrophy. Regulation and recovery matter. Progressive overload is a rule. What kind of volume and frequency seem to work for you?

While you're learning how those pillars apply to you as an individual, you can shop for cookie cutters that appeal to you and modify them to make the most of them. Also, there are occasionally new styles and methods that emerge, and learning is cool.

TLDR; Use "programs" to learn how you work. Then work it.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#62

Post by KyleSchuant » Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:17 pm

This might be a good time to toss up Rogue Fitness' series on stone lifting. They're interesting to watch, because you think about it and you realise that there is no evidence of programming in the histories of stone-lifting in Basque country, Iceland or Scotland. They don't mention what the Icelanders and Scots did, but the Basques just have a few interested guys and their sons get together regularly to practice. And the small lads start with smaller stones, as they get bigger they get bigger stones (yes, yes).

No programming, or at least none shown in the three videos. They don't get the kids to do 3 sets of 8-12 and when they can do 12 at RPE 7 they go up a stone, or whatever. They just lift a lot of stones with their mates and their dads and sons over many years.

"Yes, busting your arse for ten years works, but we are concerned with what is optimal," certain trainers and coaches would say - and trainers and coaches are paid by the session or the term or whatever, so this makes sense, we want to have the person make the most progress possible in that session or term, to justify our fees. So it's reasonable to look at what's optimal. But then... maybe what's really optimal is whatever is most likely to have the person still doing it ten years from now?

My son's 11. Time to make him start coming to the gym every day, I think. And do... something.






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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#63

Post by MarkKO » Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:12 pm

broseph wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:51 am For a long time I've thought programming is more bullshitty than we'd like to admit, but it is certainly not total bullshit.

I think the bullshittiness is mostly in the way a program convinces you that you're making progress. See how you had to lift lighter weights today- it's because that last session was so effective. Hey look, it's been a few weeks, you now have permission to lift a little bit more this time- see how strong you're getting!

I think a lot of that stuff is insignificant with regards to the signal:noise ratio, but it's mentally important to LOTS of people, which keeps them consistent and forces them to progress, which are probably the most important variables of all.

Once you start seeing through the bullshit though, you see the pillars holding up all the frills. Periodization is important. Strength skill is different than hypertrophy. Regulation and recovery matter. Progressive overload is a rule. What kind of volume and frequency seem to work for you?

While you're learning how those pillars apply to you as an individual, you can shop for cookie cutters that appeal to you and modify them to make the most of them. Also, there are occasionally new styles and methods that emerge, and learning is cool.

TLDR; Use "programs" to learn how you work. Then work it.
Reminds me of a statement that I think is often attributed to Wendler that principles > programs.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#64

Post by Clearwater47 » Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:29 pm

KyleSchuant wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:17 pm My son's 11. Time to make him start coming to the gym every day, I think. And do... something.
No doubt. I have a 12 year old that asked if I could help him with lifting a few months ago. I know that programming is of very little importance at this point and have just been trying to do things he enjoys and rotating out things he’s struggling with or not enjoying. We’re using basic double progression so that he can start learning about the various methods of progression, but I’m putting virtually no importance on increasing reps/sets/weight (he’s placing importance on it on his own and is enjoying making progress). He’s still very enthusiastic about it so something is going right.

This is one of the factors that has had me questioning where programming really should be placed on a scale of importance. My conclusion at this point is that it is an important factor and shouldn’t be disregarded, but that it’s not nearly as important as I’ve made it out to be. It’s certainly not the be all and end all.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#65

Post by MarkKO » Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:40 pm

Clearwater47 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:29 pm
KyleSchuant wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:17 pm My son's 11. Time to make him start coming to the gym every day, I think. And do... something.
No doubt. I have a 12 year old that asked if I could help him with lifting a few months ago. I know that programming is of very little importance at this point and have just been trying to do things he enjoys and rotating out things he’s struggling with or not enjoying. We’re using basic double progression so that he can start learning about the various methods of progression, but I’m putting virtually no importance on increasing reps/sets/weight (he’s placing importance on it on his own and is enjoying making progress). He’s still very enthusiastic about it so something is going right.

This is one of the factors that has had me questioning where programming really should be placed on a scale of importance. My conclusion at this point is that it is an important factor and shouldn’t be disregarded, but that it’s not nearly as important as I’ve made it out to be. It’s certainly not the be all and end all.
TBH how important it is comes down to your why. If you want to get to a certain number on a lift; or you compete in a strength sport; or you compete in a sport and strength training is part of training for it, then programming is important. It's going to be difficult to get anywhere without a systematic approach, which you can call programming or a system or whatever you like.

If you just lift weights because you enjoy it and you want to get better at it, probably not particularly important. If you consistently show up and put in effort, you'll probably do it whether or not you follow a systematic approach or not.

That being said, IME if you do have a reasonably systematic approach and you're consistent you tend to do better than if your approach isn't systematic and you're consistent.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#66

Post by Clearwater47 » Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:17 am

MarkKO wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:40 pmIME if you do have a reasonably systematic approach and you're consistent you tend to do better than if your approach isn't systematic and you're consistent.
No argument from me on any of that. I personally just have tended towards overvaluing programming, thinking there was a perfect program that would override my shortcomings and produce exponential progress - if only I could find it or design it.

While I certainly think programming is important, I now just think it’s less important than I used to, and that there are about a handful of other things that have a greater impact on strength, muscularity, health, or whatever else a person may be training for. Among them would be training consistency, sustenance, and recovery.

My overarching take is that programming plays an important role, but is by no means the king of the training jungle. In the age of information overload it’s become increasingly easier to misprioritize it.

There are any number of programs that are sufficient to produce good results, given that the more important factors I mentioned are relatively on point. There are no programs I know of that will produce good results if those things aren’t on point. So once a person has adequately accounted for the things that are more important they can put a major portion of their attention on programming, but not before.

I’d argue that 95+% of people who train would be making a better use of their time by learning about rest, nutrition, meditation, etc., or probably even be better off just taking a nap as opposed to spending their time considering the idiocyncracies of their programming. And I realize this is a dangerous statement considering that obsessing over programming is probably why most of us (myself included) are reading this forum and this thread, lol, but I stand by it.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#67

Post by MarkKO » Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:27 am

Clearwater47 wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:17 am
MarkKO wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:40 pmIME if you do have a reasonably systematic approach and you're consistent you tend to do better than if your approach isn't systematic and you're consistent.
No argument from me on any of that. I personally just have tended towards overvaluing programming, thinking there was a perfect program that would override my shortcomings and produce exponential progress - if only I could find it or design it.

While I certainly think programming is important, I now just think it’s less important than I used to, and that there are about a handful of other things that have a greater impact on strength, muscularity, health, or whatever else a person may be training for. Among them would be training consistency, sustenance, and recovery.

My overarching take is that programming plays an important role, but is by no means the king of the training jungle. In the age of information overload it’s become increasingly easier to misprioritize it.

There are any number of programs that are sufficient to produce good results, given that the more important factors I mentioned are relatively on point. There are no programs I know of that will produce good results if those things aren’t on point. So once a person has adequately accounted for the things that are more important they can put a major portion of their attention on programming, but not before.

I’d argue that 95+% of people who train would be making a better use of their time by learning about rest, nutrition, meditation, etc., or probably even be better off just taking a nap as opposed to spending their time considering the idiocyncracies of their programming. And I realize this is a dangerous statement considering that obsessing over programming is probably why most of us (myself included) are reading this forum and this thread, lol, but I stand by it.
Preach brother.

Discussing training is one thing, obsessing over it another though. I like the discussion because periodically I come across a new idea, or a different way of expressing an idea that makes me look at it differently.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#68

Post by cole » Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:31 am

atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm Hi,

I've been lifting for over a decade. I'm 30, 6'0, 210lbs and my best lifts are:

SQ 515x5
PR 220x3
BP 280x5
DL 580x5 (640x1)
Obviously you have had success and have the data to know what works for you. good job
atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm
All my technique is modeled after the SS stuff... and my programming is somewhat similar to TM.
I feel similar, and have had success with TM and HLM
atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm I looked a bit at BBM. But it just seems retarded.
No
atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm My view is: no one understands the biological processes that are going on to produce adaptation to stress -- and no one understands which stress to apply to produce the greatest strength adaptations. We can just take guesses based on experience. And sure, that works really well for a novice program like the SSLP. But then for a more advanced lifter like myself, nothing starts to make sense anymore. The advanced stress-adaption-recovery timeline for advanced lifters can be a month. Who the fuck can control all their training variables so well that they can consistently make progress on a month-to-month basis? I just don't understand how this complexity helps anyone.
BBM has a better understanding of this than 99.9 percent of the population


atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm
Am I really so wrong to think that I can attain my strength goals continuing my simple as fuck 3-day a week programming without variations?
clearly you can attain your strength goals with this model, and your numbers demonstrate that

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#69

Post by dw » Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:06 pm

I didn't pay much attention to the original post but @cole is correct.

There's probably a level of knowledge from which one can critique BBM pretty thoroughly, but this, as they say, is not it.

Also speaking at least for the hypertrophy side, you have to get very advanced before it becomes difficult to measure short term progress (and therefore experimentation becomes difficult if not pointless). That short term progress might consistent of getting one more rep on your final AMRAP set than you did last week, but still, it's pretty concrete.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#70

Post by Hardartery » Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:17 pm

cole wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:31 am
atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm Hi,

I've been lifting for over a decade. I'm 30, 6'0, 210lbs and my best lifts are:

SQ 515x5
PR 220x3
BP 280x5
DL 580x5 (640x1)
Obviously you have had success and have the data to know what works for you. good job
atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm
All my technique is modeled after the SS stuff... and my programming is somewhat similar to TM.
I feel similar, and have had success with TM and HLM
atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm I looked a bit at BBM. But it just seems retarded.
No
atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm My view is: no one understands the biological processes that are going on to produce adaptation to stress -- and no one understands which stress to apply to produce the greatest strength adaptations. We can just take guesses based on experience. And sure, that works really well for a novice program like the SSLP. But then for a more advanced lifter like myself, nothing starts to make sense anymore. The advanced stress-adaption-recovery timeline for advanced lifters can be a month. Who the fuck can control all their training variables so well that they can consistently make progress on a month-to-month basis? I just don't understand how this complexity helps anyone.
BBM has a better understanding of this than 99.9 percent of the population


atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm
Am I really so wrong to think that I can attain my strength goals continuing my simple as fuck 3-day a week programming without variations?
clearly you can attain your strength goals with this model, and your numbers demonstrate that
I think we may have run him off with that OHP Technique thread, where he demonstrated how advanced he is not. His main problem seems to be that he thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does and won't be convinced otherwise.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#71

Post by DanCR » Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:58 pm

Hardartery wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:17 pm
cole wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:31 am
atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm Hi,

I've been lifting for over a decade. I'm 30, 6'0, 210lbs and my best lifts are:

SQ 515x5
PR 220x3
BP 280x5
DL 580x5 (640x1)
Obviously you have had success and have the data to know what works for you. good job
atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm
All my technique is modeled after the SS stuff... and my programming is somewhat similar to TM.
I feel similar, and have had success with TM and HLM
atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm I looked a bit at BBM. But it just seems retarded.
No
atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm My view is: no one understands the biological processes that are going on to produce adaptation to stress -- and no one understands which stress to apply to produce the greatest strength adaptations. We can just take guesses based on experience. And sure, that works really well for a novice program like the SSLP. But then for a more advanced lifter like myself, nothing starts to make sense anymore. The advanced stress-adaption-recovery timeline for advanced lifters can be a month. Who the fuck can control all their training variables so well that they can consistently make progress on a month-to-month basis? I just don't understand how this complexity helps anyone.
BBM has a better understanding of this than 99.9 percent of the population


atsm wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:56 pm
Am I really so wrong to think that I can attain my strength goals continuing my simple as fuck 3-day a week programming without variations?
clearly you can attain your strength goals with this model, and your numbers demonstrate that
I think we may have run him off with that OHP Technique thread, where he demonstrated how advanced he is not. His main problem seems to be that he thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does and won't be convinced otherwise.
Given that his last post in that thread (which was not good but not the worst thing in the world) was deleted (presumably not by him), I assumed that he was banned. If that’s in fact the case, I’d like to see him back. He came off like a prick but some different ideas and a desire to talk training are good things. I of course defer to the mods who put time and effort into keeping this a cool place; just my view.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#72

Post by Goat » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:04 am

Clearwater47 wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:17 am
My overarching take is that programming plays an important role, but is by no means the king of the training jungle. In the age of information overload it’s become
There are any number of programs that are sufficient to produce good results, given that the more important factors I mentioned are relatively on point. There are no programs I know of that will produce good results if those things aren’t on point. So once a person has adequately accounted for the things that are more important they can put a major portion of their attention on programming, but not before.

I’d argue that 95+% of people who train would be making a better use of their time by learning about rest, nutrition, meditation, etc., or probably even be better off just taking a nap as opposed to spending their time considering the idiocyncracies of their programming. And I realize this is a dangerous statement considering that obsessing over programming is probably why most of us (myself included) are reading this forum and this thread, lol, but I stand by it.
Agreed.

For myself, I straight up made better progress when I stopped obsessing over this stuff and stopped trying to follow a set-in-stone program that on paper was "optimal", and started to just focus on getting frequent exposure to the lifts I care about, done at a high quality and never overdoing it in terms of intensity and volume.

Whoever first came up with the phrase "training principles are more important than programs" was totally correct as far as I'm concerned.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#73

Post by mgil » Thu May 09, 2024 5:08 pm

DanCR wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:58 pm Given that his last post in that thread (which was not good but not the worst thing in the world) was deleted (presumably not by him), I assumed that he was banned. If that’s in fact the case, I’d like to see him back. He came off like a prick but some different ideas and a desire to talk training are good things. I of course defer to the mods who put time and effort into keeping this a cool place; just my view.
Reading through posts and saw this. Just letting you know he’s not banned and I don’t think I deleted any posts (?). I’m pretty sure that peeps can delete their own for 24 hours.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#74

Post by DanCR » Thu May 09, 2024 6:38 pm

mgil wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 5:08 pm
DanCR wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:58 pm Given that his last post in that thread (which was not good but not the worst thing in the world) was deleted (presumably not by him), I assumed that he was banned. If that’s in fact the case, I’d like to see him back. He came off like a prick but some different ideas and a desire to talk training are good things. I of course defer to the mods who put time and effort into keeping this a cool place; just my view.
Reading through posts and saw this. Just letting you know he’s not banned and I don’t think I deleted any posts (?). I’m pretty sure that peeps can delete their own for 24 hours.
Gotcha. Must've decided to go be a prick elsewhere.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#75

Post by DanCR » Thu May 09, 2024 8:50 pm

Yo, @Adams, did you ever end up trying the big plates thing with bench press?

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#76

Post by Adams » Fri May 10, 2024 1:16 am

DanCR wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 8:50 pm Yo, @Adams, did you ever end up trying the big plates thing with bench press?
I did, and still do. I do it on all my lifts these days and I started making progress again. That did have more to do with eating and sleeping better though.

I'm coming up to 41 now and my goals are slightly different now. I doubt i'll ever do a 1-3 rep max again (this could change though) and I'm running a bit more so I want to keep the lifting weight part as simple as I can.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#77

Post by ChrisMcCarthy1979 » Fri May 10, 2024 5:21 am

No.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#78

Post by ChrisMcCarthy1979 » Fri May 10, 2024 5:21 am

No.

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#79

Post by AdamSkillin » Fri May 10, 2024 8:39 am

Hardartery wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:30 am Super Secret Equation:
Train really hard to provide stimulus + recover sufficiently + eat enough clean calories = victory.
Remeber, that's 3 payments of $19.95.
Outside the eating part, isn't "programming" just what we call it when we write down a guideline or framework for doing all that?

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Re: Isn't all programming bullshit?

#80

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Sat May 11, 2024 10:00 pm

The two last posts by @ChrisMcCarthy1979 really hit the nail on the head I think.

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