Things I believe but can't prove...

[DCR]

I really wish the bIG CoMpOUNds religion would die. Somehow if you don't focus on SBD, you fail the manhood test, or something. Nothing wrong with SBD if you love the lifts or train for powerlifting or adjacent sport. However, the nonsense of SBD building great physiques, or squats being the king of lifts, or deadlifts building your whole body has led far too many people astray. If you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like one. I don't know why so many people cannot reduce their obsession with SBD while being closeted physique lifters.

I generally agree with this, but I don't think I do when you're just starting out. In my case, I had been lifting for several years doing p90x stuff, which has a lot of body building stuff in it, and had made gains. When I switched to the big compound lifts (when I found SS), I made new gains in size for maybe about a year, then that stopped. Traps got bigger, pecs and triceps started growing. Forearms for some reason grew. Ass grew. Not anything outrageous, but it was noticeable (I got comments from friends and family, and my wife was rather impressed as well!). About a year ago when I did several months of pull/push/legs with a bodybuilding emphasis (with the big three still in my rotation, but reduced volume) I made some more gains.

Maybe I should just say big compound lifts are important, but more important the earlier you are in your lifting journey.

+1

I don't think that they're essential for that first year's growth, but they absolutely will accomplish it.

[Hanley]

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, tren like one.

Golly, Quik

[quikky]

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, tren like one.

Golly, Quik

If you're not trenning hard, you're not doing the program.

[mbasic]

I think I can tell when a guy is/was using gear, not from the abrupt "positive" phyisque gainz ....

.... but from when the opposite happens: when they come off suddenly (for some reason, such as money, side effects, dick no work, etc) and their physique takes a rapid U turn out of nowhere. That might be the bigger tell.

[EricK]

...that a vertical pull is the most "efficient" which automatically translates to a bigger Olympic lift...

[quikky]

Maybe I should just say big compound lifts are important, but more important the earlier you are in your lifting journey.

Why are the big lifts important?

[KarlM]

Maybe I should just say big compound lifts are important, but more important the earlier you are in your lifting journey.

Why are the big lifts important?

I buy the old school argument that beginners should first get strong in big compound lifts, and then specialize based on their goals after a base level of strength is reached. I think there is a lot of truth to the idea that beginners usually aren't strong enough to progress quickly and/or easily using just isolation lifts - not as much stimulus per unit of work put in when compared to big compounds. Additionally, the overall training is unnecessarily complicated when you try to hit the relevant muscle groups of a beginner using primarily isolation movements, rather than just focus on a few big compound movements. It's also easier to measure progress, since for beginners if their numbers go up, there will be a concomitant increase in muscle mass.

If a trainee becomes interested in bodybuilding after maybe 6 months or so in the gym, then the more specialized training can be brought in. I definitely think that a dogmatic adherence to big compound lifts can get in the way of a physique athlete's progress, as there will inevitably be lagging body parts that need to be brought up, and the risk of injury goes way up when you won't drop a lift that's literally killing you.

Chins will only go so far to build biceps, for example. But for a new trainee, their biceps will grow if they get their chin numbers (or supinated lat pulldowns) up. Also, the big compounds can be any number of movements, from machines to barbells to dumbbells. My argument is more focused on compound (multiple joint angles) vs. isolation.

[quikky]

Maybe I should just say big compound lifts are important, but more important the earlier you are in your lifting journey.

Why are the big lifts important?

I buy the old school argument that beginners should first get strong in big compound lifts, and then specialize based on their goals after a base level of strength is reached. I think there is a lot of truth to the idea that beginners usually aren't strong enough to progress quickly and/or easily using just isolation lifts - not as much stimulus per unit of work put in when compared to big compounds. Additionally, the overall training is unnecessarily complicated when you try to hit the relevant muscle groups of a beginner using primarily isolation movements, rather than just focus on a few big compound movements. It's also easier to measure progress, since for beginners if their numbers go up, there will be a concomitant increase in muscle mass.

If a trainee becomes interested in bodybuilding after maybe 6 months or so in the gym, then the more specialized training can be brought in. I definitely think that a dogmatic adherence to big compound lifts can get in the way of a physique athlete's progress, as there will inevitably be lagging body parts that need to be brought up, and the risk of injury goes way up when you won't drop a lift that's literally killing you.

Chins will only go so far to build biceps, for example. But for a new trainee, their biceps will grow if they get their chin numbers (or supinated lat pulldowns) up. Also, the big compounds can be any number of movements, from machines to barbells to dumbbells. My argument is more focused on compound (multiple joint angles) vs. isolation.

Yeah I am talking about SBD specifically, not compound movements more broadly. There aren't any isolation-only programs I'm aware of, no matter how physique oriented. You'll always do some kind of squatting movement, for example, be it leg presses, hack squats, pendulum squats, etc.

I actually don't buy that physique training is more complicated, or that you need to be of a certain level of strength to use it. In fact, I'd argue the opposite, i.e. strength training is a lot more complicated due to the need for periodization, auto regulation, learning the form and being efficient, deloads, etc. Even a beginner program, like say the LP, has a super high failure and non-adherence rate. The thing is literally two alternating workouts.

I think the reason people can see better results from SBD programs like the LP is simply because they are told to increase weight in the gym, as well as weight on the scale. This is something a lot of beginners do not really do.

The other thing is that if someone's ultimate goal is physique, why, for example, spend your most responsive 6 months of training and gaining muscle without directly training your arms and calves? It's not like your biceps don't respond to stimulus until you can pull 405.

[Hanley]

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, tren like one.

Golly, Quik

If you're not trenning hard, you're not doing the program.

Well, you're probably not going to impress anybody with your natty physique whether you do an SBD or a BB routine. So...moot decision.

Sad natty realities.

[quikky]

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, tren like one.

Golly, Quik

If you're not trenning hard, you're not doing the program.

Well, you're probably not going to impress anybody with your natty physique whether you do an SBD or a BB routine. So...moot decision.

Sad natty realities.

Well, that can be said for almost any pursuit if you're not particularly talented in it. I think most of us compete against ourselves and do it for fun. And, if your chosen arena for self competition is physique, you are more likely to be more competitive in said arena against yourself with training meant for physique development vs specializing in 3 lifts.

[Hanley]

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, tren like one.

Golly, Quik

If you're not trenning hard, you're not doing the program.

Well, you're probably not going to impress anybody with your natty physique whether you do an SBD or a BB routine. So...moot decision.

Sad natty realities.

if your chosen arena for self competition is physique, you are more likely to be more competitive in said arena against yourself with training meant for physique development vs specializing in 3 lifts.

But you said I would look like a bodybuilder

Meh or Meh+ physique.

But...you can get pretty fucking strong natty. *shrug emoji*

[EricK]

But you said I would look like a bodybuilder

Meh or Meh+ physique.

But...you can get pretty fucking strong natty. *shrug emoji*

We can't all be beasts like you, Hanley. But I think you have a great physique.

[Hanley]

But I think you have a great physique.

All credit to the deadlifts

[quikky]

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, tren like one.

Golly, Quik

If you're not trenning hard, you're not doing the program.

Well, you're probably not going to impress anybody with your natty physique whether you do an SBD or a BB routine. So...moot decision.

Sad natty realities.

if your chosen arena for self competition is physique, you are more likely to be more competitive in said arena against yourself with training meant for physique development vs specializing in 3 lifts.

But you said I would look like a bodybuilder

Meh or Meh+ physique.

But...you can get pretty fucking strong natty. *shrug emoji*

Yeah, the bodybuilding training version of you will look different than the SBD focused version of you. So, if you want the former, train as such.

And, your capacity for strength is usually going to be pretty correlated to your capacity for putting on muscle mass. So presumably if you get "pretty fucking strong", you will have also put on a decent amount of muscle mass. However, the distribution of this muscle mass, for most, will be distributed differently than if you spent that time training for physique.

I'm not sure what's controversial about any of this, to be honest.

[Hanley]

I'm not sure what's controversial about any of this, to be honest.

I'm cool bro. No controversy.

But you kinda seem...

I really wish the bIG CoMpOUNds religion would die.

...Wound-up

A touch....aggro, maybe.

I'll love you 'til you love yourself

[quikky]

I'm not sure what's controversial about any of this, to be honest.

I'm cool bro. No controversy.

But you kinda seem...

I really wish the bIG CoMpOUNds religion would die.

Wound-up

A touch....aggro, maybe.

I'll love you 'til you love yourself

Will you pec dance for me?

[Hanley]

I'm not sure what's controversial about any of this, to be honest.

I'm cool bro. No controversy.

But you kinda seem...

I really wish the bIG CoMpOUNds religion would die.

Wound-up

A touch....aggro, maybe.

I'll love you 'til you love yourself

Will you pec dance for me?

The douchey shit I'd do for you...

[quikky]

I'm not sure what's controversial about any of this, to be honest.

I'm cool bro. No controversy.

But you kinda seem...

I really wish the bIG CoMpOUNds religion would die.

Wound-up

A touch....aggro, maybe.

I'll love you 'til you love yourself

Will you pec dance for me?

The douchey shit I'd do for you...

Let's sail away together.

[Hanley]

I'm not sure what's controversial about any of this, to be honest.

I'm cool bro. No controversy.

But you kinda seem...

I really wish the bIG CoMpOUNds religion would die.

Wound-up

A touch....aggro, maybe.

I'll love you 'til you love yourself

Will you pec dance for me?

The douchey shit I'd do for you...

Let's sail away together.

I'll just keep reminding you that your "physique" is more accepted by a group or neurotic, fragile, egomaniacal male bodybuilders at the cost of performance metrics in a vast array of skills that involve force production and power.

[quikky]

I'm not sure what's controversial about any of this, to be honest.

I'm cool bro. No controversy.

But you kinda seem...

I really wish the bIG CoMpOUNds religion would die.

Wound-up

A touch....aggro, maybe.

I'll love you 'til you love yourself

Will you pec dance for me?

The douchey shit I'd do for you...

Let's sail away together.

I'll just keep reminding you that your "physique" is more accepted by a group or neurotic, fragile, egomaniacal male bodybuilders at the cost of performance metrics in a vast array of skills that involve force production and power.

Oh, I can tell you have a lot of force production and power. Go on...