No Progress

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Jamessmithson
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Re: No Progress

#41

Post by Jamessmithson » Fri May 10, 2024 6:50 am

KyleSchuant wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 6:13 am It's 80kg and maybe some change, I can't see from the vid. That won't be hard on any tendons and ligaments unless you hang it from your penis or something.

I think the rep range is a secondary consideration in this instance. Your squat rep speed is slow here because you've chosen for it to be slow. You're moving slowly and cautiously, obviously apprehensive about the weight. Don't be apprehensive. Put the safeties up by about one slot, then if it gets too heavy you can simply lean forward and dump the bar, and nothing will be hurt except your ego - of course, the most delicate part of any man. Make the barbell your bitch. If you and the barbell are in prison together, the barbell gets the bottom bunk.

Think of this long term. As I said, you've already done it for two years. Think of two years from now. Even if you got yourself microplates and all you did was add 0.5kg each week, in two years you'd be squatting 52kg more - 132kg for work sets. I would suggest that even at that slow pace of progress you'd get some physique changes.

As an example, here's my lifter Cass. At 172cm she's gone from 59 to 70kg bodyweight. So she's 8cm shorter than you but the same weight. She's far from HYUGE. She took two years to put that bodyweight on.

Following her is Merkava who at 162cm went from 58 to 65kg bodyweight, taking eight months to do it, front squatted 60kg and back squatted 80, while doing night shifts as a paramedic. 18cm shorter than you but just 5kg lower bodyweight. HYUGE?

Oh, and here's Rosie who popped in to say hi one day after being absent for some years, she'd previously squatted 80 and deadlifted 120kg at 70yo, here she did 90kg at 75yo.

Lastly there's OG Pete who squatted 60kg for work sets after five months. But he was 77 years old, and had no previous history of weight training.

This is not to boast, because these lifts are in no way remarkable in stength-focused gyms. The guys here will all have examples of themselves and - for those who are trainers or coaches - their lifters doing much more. Still less is it intended to shame you. It's simply to put what you're doing in perspective and inspire you. You've shown commitment to training steadily for two years. This is good. Now it's time to take that consistency and focus it better so you can get better results and get closer to your potential.

Edge up the weight on the bar and the weight on the scale gradually over time. Ideally, look for a decent powerlifting or weightlifting gym in your area. Really you just need someone to slap you on the back and say, "you'll be alright, mate, get under the bar" and shout at you a bit when you unrack it and look nervous.
Makes perfect sense, thank you very much! I'll do a proper program, hit 5 reps, stop the slow speed and pauses and train super intensely!

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quikky
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Re: No Progress

#42

Post by quikky » Sat May 11, 2024 8:32 am

Jamessmithson wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 6:50 am
KyleSchuant wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 6:13 am It's 80kg and maybe some change, I can't see from the vid. That won't be hard on any tendons and ligaments unless you hang it from your penis or something.

I think the rep range is a secondary consideration in this instance. Your squat rep speed is slow here because you've chosen for it to be slow. You're moving slowly and cautiously, obviously apprehensive about the weight. Don't be apprehensive. Put the safeties up by about one slot, then if it gets too heavy you can simply lean forward and dump the bar, and nothing will be hurt except your ego - of course, the most delicate part of any man. Make the barbell your bitch. If you and the barbell are in prison together, the barbell gets the bottom bunk.

Think of this long term. As I said, you've already done it for two years. Think of two years from now. Even if you got yourself microplates and all you did was add 0.5kg each week, in two years you'd be squatting 52kg more - 132kg for work sets. I would suggest that even at that slow pace of progress you'd get some physique changes.

As an example, here's my lifter Cass. At 172cm she's gone from 59 to 70kg bodyweight. So she's 8cm shorter than you but the same weight. She's far from HYUGE. She took two years to put that bodyweight on.

Following her is Merkava who at 162cm went from 58 to 65kg bodyweight, taking eight months to do it, front squatted 60kg and back squatted 80, while doing night shifts as a paramedic. 18cm shorter than you but just 5kg lower bodyweight. HYUGE?

Oh, and here's Rosie who popped in to say hi one day after being absent for some years, she'd previously squatted 80 and deadlifted 120kg at 70yo, here she did 90kg at 75yo.

Lastly there's OG Pete who squatted 60kg for work sets after five months. But he was 77 years old, and had no previous history of weight training.

This is not to boast, because these lifts are in no way remarkable in stength-focused gyms. The guys here will all have examples of themselves and - for those who are trainers or coaches - their lifters doing much more. Still less is it intended to shame you. It's simply to put what you're doing in perspective and inspire you. You've shown commitment to training steadily for two years. This is good. Now it's time to take that consistency and focus it better so you can get better results and get closer to your potential.

Edge up the weight on the bar and the weight on the scale gradually over time. Ideally, look for a decent powerlifting or weightlifting gym in your area. Really you just need someone to slap you on the back and say, "you'll be alright, mate, get under the bar" and shout at you a bit when you unrack it and look nervous.
Makes perfect sense, thank you very much! I'll do a proper program, hit 5 reps, stop the slow speed and pauses and train super intensely!
Others have already given this advice but it is worth reiterating: if your goal is to gain muscle, you need to be training in a caloric surplus. Gain 0.5-1lbs a week for at least a couple months, then re-evaluate. You're not going to ever make any significant progress staying at your height and bodyweight.

Gaining a lot of weight quickly is not a good way to go. However, so is obsessing about programming when you don't have the calories to make use of the stimulus you're creating from your workouts. An okay program done in a slight caloric surplus will put on a lot more muscle than a perfect program done with no calories to spare.

clh
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Re: No Progress

#43

Post by clh » Sat May 11, 2024 9:53 am

@Jamessmithson have you considered sharing your training log here ? viewforum.php?f=5 You could even add your log from when you did greyskull LP if you still have those records

Jamessmithson
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Re: No Progress

#44

Post by Jamessmithson » Sat May 11, 2024 10:47 am

quikky wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 8:32 am
Jamessmithson wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 6:50 am
KyleSchuant wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 6:13 am It's 80kg and maybe some change, I can't see from the vid. That won't be hard on any tendons and ligaments unless you hang it from your penis or something.

I think the rep range is a secondary consideration in this instance. Your squat rep speed is slow here because you've chosen for it to be slow. You're moving slowly and cautiously, obviously apprehensive about the weight. Don't be apprehensive. Put the safeties up by about one slot, then if it gets too heavy you can simply lean forward and dump the bar, and nothing will be hurt except your ego - of course, the most delicate part of any man. Make the barbell your bitch. If you and the barbell are in prison together, the barbell gets the bottom bunk.

Think of this long term. As I said, you've already done it for two years. Think of two years from now. Even if you got yourself microplates and all you did was add 0.5kg each week, in two years you'd be squatting 52kg more - 132kg for work sets. I would suggest that even at that slow pace of progress you'd get some physique changes.

As an example, here's my lifter Cass. At 172cm she's gone from 59 to 70kg bodyweight. So she's 8cm shorter than you but the same weight. She's far from HYUGE. She took two years to put that bodyweight on.

Following her is Merkava who at 162cm went from 58 to 65kg bodyweight, taking eight months to do it, front squatted 60kg and back squatted 80, while doing night shifts as a paramedic. 18cm shorter than you but just 5kg lower bodyweight. HYUGE?

Oh, and here's Rosie who popped in to say hi one day after being absent for some years, she'd previously squatted 80 and deadlifted 120kg at 70yo, here she did 90kg at 75yo.

Lastly there's OG Pete who squatted 60kg for work sets after five months. But he was 77 years old, and had no previous history of weight training.

This is not to boast, because these lifts are in no way remarkable in stength-focused gyms. The guys here will all have examples of themselves and - for those who are trainers or coaches - their lifters doing much more. Still less is it intended to shame you. It's simply to put what you're doing in perspective and inspire you. You've shown commitment to training steadily for two years. This is good. Now it's time to take that consistency and focus it better so you can get better results and get closer to your potential.

Edge up the weight on the bar and the weight on the scale gradually over time. Ideally, look for a decent powerlifting or weightlifting gym in your area. Really you just need someone to slap you on the back and say, "you'll be alright, mate, get under the bar" and shout at you a bit when you unrack it and look nervous.
Makes perfect sense, thank you very much! I'll do a proper program, hit 5 reps, stop the slow speed and pauses and train super intensely!
Others have already given this advice but it is worth reiterating: if your goal is to gain muscle, you need to be training in a caloric surplus. Gain 0.5-1lbs a week for at least a couple months, then re-evaluate. You're not going to ever make any significant progress staying at your height and bodyweight.

Gaining a lot of weight quickly is not a good way to go. However, so is obsessing about programming when you don't have the calories to make use of the stimulus you're creating from your workouts. An okay program done in a slight caloric surplus will put on a lot more muscle than a perfect program done with no calories to spare.
Thanks! During the last two years, I've been weighing myself and gaining .5-1pound per week for several months at a time - I'll do it for longer though and up my bodyweight.

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quikky
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Re: No Progress

#45

Post by quikky » Sat May 11, 2024 11:11 am

Jamessmithson wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 10:47 am
quikky wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 8:32 am
Jamessmithson wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 6:50 am
KyleSchuant wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 6:13 am It's 80kg and maybe some change, I can't see from the vid. That won't be hard on any tendons and ligaments unless you hang it from your penis or something.

I think the rep range is a secondary consideration in this instance. Your squat rep speed is slow here because you've chosen for it to be slow. You're moving slowly and cautiously, obviously apprehensive about the weight. Don't be apprehensive. Put the safeties up by about one slot, then if it gets too heavy you can simply lean forward and dump the bar, and nothing will be hurt except your ego - of course, the most delicate part of any man. Make the barbell your bitch. If you and the barbell are in prison together, the barbell gets the bottom bunk.

Think of this long term. As I said, you've already done it for two years. Think of two years from now. Even if you got yourself microplates and all you did was add 0.5kg each week, in two years you'd be squatting 52kg more - 132kg for work sets. I would suggest that even at that slow pace of progress you'd get some physique changes.

As an example, here's my lifter Cass. At 172cm she's gone from 59 to 70kg bodyweight. So she's 8cm shorter than you but the same weight. She's far from HYUGE. She took two years to put that bodyweight on.

Following her is Merkava who at 162cm went from 58 to 65kg bodyweight, taking eight months to do it, front squatted 60kg and back squatted 80, while doing night shifts as a paramedic. 18cm shorter than you but just 5kg lower bodyweight. HYUGE?

Oh, and here's Rosie who popped in to say hi one day after being absent for some years, she'd previously squatted 80 and deadlifted 120kg at 70yo, here she did 90kg at 75yo.

Lastly there's OG Pete who squatted 60kg for work sets after five months. But he was 77 years old, and had no previous history of weight training.

This is not to boast, because these lifts are in no way remarkable in stength-focused gyms. The guys here will all have examples of themselves and - for those who are trainers or coaches - their lifters doing much more. Still less is it intended to shame you. It's simply to put what you're doing in perspective and inspire you. You've shown commitment to training steadily for two years. This is good. Now it's time to take that consistency and focus it better so you can get better results and get closer to your potential.

Edge up the weight on the bar and the weight on the scale gradually over time. Ideally, look for a decent powerlifting or weightlifting gym in your area. Really you just need someone to slap you on the back and say, "you'll be alright, mate, get under the bar" and shout at you a bit when you unrack it and look nervous.
Makes perfect sense, thank you very much! I'll do a proper program, hit 5 reps, stop the slow speed and pauses and train super intensely!
Others have already given this advice but it is worth reiterating: if your goal is to gain muscle, you need to be training in a caloric surplus. Gain 0.5-1lbs a week for at least a couple months, then re-evaluate. You're not going to ever make any significant progress staying at your height and bodyweight.

Gaining a lot of weight quickly is not a good way to go. However, so is obsessing about programming when you don't have the calories to make use of the stimulus you're creating from your workouts. An okay program done in a slight caloric surplus will put on a lot more muscle than a perfect program done with no calories to spare.
Thanks! During the last two years, I've been weighing myself and gaining .5-1pound per week for several months at a time - I'll do it for longer though and up my bodyweight.
Absolute bodyweight matters in this context. You just can't stay at 154lbs and get jacked. For 5'10", a reasonable target is 185-205lbs, depending on your response to training and personal preference. As long as your waist is staying under 37", keep gaining. If you hit 37", trim down to under 35" and then keep going.

My guess is you can go until 200lbs or so, maybe with a few small cuts sprinkled in, then do a longer cut to 180-185lbs, you'll be in the best shape ever.

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CheekiBreekiFitness
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Re: No Progress

#46

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Sat May 11, 2024 9:57 pm

Jamessmithson wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 4:46 am Thank you so much for such detailed comments from everyone!!! Took me a while just wrapping my head around them. I'll try doing 5 reps for several months as a useful strength 'base' as has been suggested and up my calories. I'll stop the super slow eccentrics and pauses. I'll also ensure I'm making progress week by week (easy doing 5 reps), and if not increasing volume/intensity or deloading. I deloaded every 4/8 weeks before - maybe I just wasn't doing enough volume previously since I wasn't get sore.
On doing 210 sets and not being RPE 9/10. Surely my squat linked in the previous page was RPE 9/10 (look at the faces made)? I have tried to make everything as intense as possible. Why wouldn't RPE 9/10 on 210 sets a week be possible in a highly motivated disciplined person if you train 7 days a week and most of those 210 exercises are small (e.g. wrist curls)?
What I meant when I was taking about 210 sets a week being a problem is not even in terms of RPE/RIR, but just in terms of "working hard". You need to be working hard enough for your sets to stimulate something. Based on my experience, 210 sets of actually working hard is not feasible. You might be thinking you're working hard while doing 210 sets a week but I can assure you that you are not. Now, do not worry, many people have the same problem: look around at any commercial gym, many people are not training hard they're just going through the motions. On the other hand, I think all experienced lifters have a good grasp on how hard they could possibly go if they wanted to push themselves.

The problem is that how hard a training session feels to you is benchmarked to the hardest session you've done so far in your training career. So, in order to calibrate your scale for hard work, doing (for a short time) some programs that are hard by design will teach you something. Try doing a set of 20 reps on the squat with a heavy weight and then ask yourself "can I do 209 more sets of these ? Probably not". Now once you have learnt what you are capable of, you don't have to train balls to the wall all the time. But having that knowledge will help you better manage your training and know when to push and when to backoff.

Anyways, based on the above posts and your responses I think you're in a position to make some great gains and become as big as a refrigerator now.

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Re: No Progress

#47

Post by Jamessmithson » Sun May 12, 2024 12:38 am

quikky wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 11:11 am
Jamessmithson wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 10:47 am
quikky wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 8:32 am
Jamessmithson wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 6:50 am
KyleSchuant wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 6:13 am It's 80kg and maybe some change, I can't see from the vid. That won't be hard on any tendons and ligaments unless you hang it from your penis or something.

I think the rep range is a secondary consideration in this instance. Your squat rep speed is slow here because you've chosen for it to be slow. You're moving slowly and cautiously, obviously apprehensive about the weight. Don't be apprehensive. Put the safeties up by about one slot, then if it gets too heavy you can simply lean forward and dump the bar, and nothing will be hurt except your ego - of course, the most delicate part of any man. Make the barbell your bitch. If you and the barbell are in prison together, the barbell gets the bottom bunk.

Think of this long term. As I said, you've already done it for two years. Think of two years from now. Even if you got yourself microplates and all you did was add 0.5kg each week, in two years you'd be squatting 52kg more - 132kg for work sets. I would suggest that even at that slow pace of progress you'd get some physique changes.

As an example, here's my lifter Cass. At 172cm she's gone from 59 to 70kg bodyweight. So she's 8cm shorter than you but the same weight. She's far from HYUGE. She took two years to put that bodyweight on.

Following her is Merkava who at 162cm went from 58 to 65kg bodyweight, taking eight months to do it, front squatted 60kg and back squatted 80, while doing night shifts as a paramedic. 18cm shorter than you but just 5kg lower bodyweight. HYUGE?

Oh, and here's Rosie who popped in to say hi one day after being absent for some years, she'd previously squatted 80 and deadlifted 120kg at 70yo, here she did 90kg at 75yo.

Lastly there's OG Pete who squatted 60kg for work sets after five months. But he was 77 years old, and had no previous history of weight training.

This is not to boast, because these lifts are in no way remarkable in stength-focused gyms. The guys here will all have examples of themselves and - for those who are trainers or coaches - their lifters doing much more. Still less is it intended to shame you. It's simply to put what you're doing in perspective and inspire you. You've shown commitment to training steadily for two years. This is good. Now it's time to take that consistency and focus it better so you can get better results and get closer to your potential.

Edge up the weight on the bar and the weight on the scale gradually over time. Ideally, look for a decent powerlifting or weightlifting gym in your area. Really you just need someone to slap you on the back and say, "you'll be alright, mate, get under the bar" and shout at you a bit when you unrack it and look nervous.
Makes perfect sense, thank you very much! I'll do a proper program, hit 5 reps, stop the slow speed and pauses and train super intensely!
Others have already given this advice but it is worth reiterating: if your goal is to gain muscle, you need to be training in a caloric surplus. Gain 0.5-1lbs a week for at least a couple months, then re-evaluate. You're not going to ever make any significant progress staying at your height and bodyweight.

Gaining a lot of weight quickly is not a good way to go. However, so is obsessing about programming when you don't have the calories to make use of the stimulus you're creating from your workouts. An okay program done in a slight caloric surplus will put on a lot more muscle than a perfect program done with no calories to spare.
Thanks! During the last two years, I've been weighing myself and gaining .5-1pound per week for several months at a time - I'll do it for longer though and up my bodyweight.
Absolute bodyweight matters in this context. You just can't stay at 154lbs and get jacked. For 5'10", a reasonable target is 185-205lbs, depending on your response to training and personal preference. As long as your waist is staying under 37", keep gaining. If you hit 37", trim down to under 35" and then keep going.

My guess is you can go until 200lbs or so, maybe with a few small cuts sprinkled in, then do a longer cut to 180-185lbs, you'll be in the best shape ever.
I'll try that, thank you very much!

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Re: No Progress

#48

Post by Jamessmithson » Sun May 12, 2024 12:55 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 9:57 pm What I meant when I was taking about 210 sets a week being a problem is not even in terms of RPE/RIR, but just in terms of "working hard". You need to be working hard enough for your sets to stimulate something. Based on my experience, 210 sets of actually working hard is not feasible. You might be thinking you're working hard while doing 210 sets a week but I can assure you that you are not. Now, do not worry, many people have the same problem: look around at any commercial gym, many people are not training hard they're just going through the motions. On the other hand, I think all experienced lifters have a good grasp on how hard they could possibly go if they wanted to push themselves.

The problem is that how hard a training session feels to you is benchmarked to the hardest session you've done so far in your training career. So, in order to calibrate your scale for hard work, doing (for a short time) some programs that are hard by design will teach you something. Try doing a set of 20 reps on the squat with a heavy weight and then ask yourself "can I do 209 more sets of these ? Probably not". Now once you have learnt what you are capable of, you don't have to train balls to the wall all the time. But having that knowledge will help you better manage your training and know when to push and when to backoff.
Thanks so much, I'll try that! Just one more thing to clarify. I can definitely see why any intermediate lifter who has decent lifts can't do 210 sets. But theoretically, the weight I use is very small - surely that won't fry my CNS? I only get moderately sore the next day doing this 210 set program.
John Meadows is a very respected non-charlatan bodybuilder. His advanced programs for naturals do 150 sets a week of compounds and much isolation work. That's essentially the volume if you remove super light neck raises and wrist curls and hip abductors and tibia raises etc. And in the bodybuilding world it's common to overreach for a short duration (e.g. 4 weeks) to get high volume in before deloading (e.g. Mike Israetel's 'mesocycles').

Also should I be getting sore? I didn't on the old moderate program I ran for the last two years. I heard that naturals don't often get sore when doing an exercise they are used to, even if progressively overloading.
DanCR wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 11:49 am You beat me to it. There is no chance that OP's claim to train in the @9-10 range is true. I'm not saying that he doesn't believe that; I'm saying that at over 200 sets a week of all different kinds of stuff, he's wrong. As you say, learning to train hard is part of the value in these programs. It's far easier to learn to train hard when you have limited things on which to concentrate and aren't distracted by fucking wrist curls and tibia raises lol. Of course there are outliers but what are the chances that dude is one of them?
Surely doing tibia raises and wrist curls - the only distraction would be mental effort required - and that wouldn't be an issue in a highly motivated disciplines person? Or is there something more to do with the body's neurological response in developing these additional areas? E.g. a theory why you shouldn't do cardio after strength training is that the cardio 'steals' your body's focus on improving the strength training.

Tibia raises are commonly promoted to prevent shin splits and knee pain. Same with wrist curls for those getting elbow pain on bicep curls etc.

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Re: No Progress

#49

Post by Jamessmithson » Sun May 12, 2024 1:13 am

Zak wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 7:15 am
aurelius wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 6:49 am The reason you don't look like you lift is you are underweight at 5'10" and 70 kg (154 pounds). To 'look like you lift' your weight needs to push up closer to 91 kg (200 pounds). You are young. Still putting on your man weight. Keep lifting, eat more, and you will get results.
I would not bulk/cut...I would start with a low or at least acceptable level of bodyfat and eat enough to gain at a slow, steady rate and try to live with getting a little soft.
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 7:34 am If I were you I'd give myself a 1-2 year period of gaining about 1kg per month, and reassess the situation.
DanCR wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 8:59 am
The fact that you've apparently bulked and cut multiple times in a two-year period, while weighing around 150 lbs, is crazy pants stuff. I'm not suggesting that you fat fuck yourself, but, as said above, you should be slow bulking over a long period without any thought of cutting.
Just to clarify I'm being told to bulk over a long period in order to get my strength up? Is it acceptable if I start at a far lower body fat than what I am now (18 percent). Say I started at 10 percent and worked to 20 percent over a year or so (still bulking over a long time and gaining much bodyweight)? (even though my strength would be lower at 20 percent than say 27 percent).

Seemingly contradicted below:

https://www.t-nation.com/lean-built-eat ... -delusion/
John Meadows - There's no reason for most guys to get above 12% body fat. Personally, I prefer to stay under 10%. It will depend on where you start to lose insulin sensitivity – you'll know you're there as pumps will decrease and your muscles will start looking soft. If that happens, take it as a sign to end your bulk.

https://mountaindogdiet.com/basic/basic ... ning-faqs/
What are your thoughts on the impact of building muscle based on body fat %?
Based on my experience, once you get to a certain level of “fatness” it is often accompanied by sluggish metabolism, increased insulin resistance, out of whack hormones, etc. These are not good for maximal muscle building. I like to keep people where I can see the basic outline of their abs. You don’t have to have ripped and veiny abs, but don’t get so fat you just have a bloated belly sticking out. Try to stay under 12% if you can

'you can gain muscle at the best rate hanging around 8-12%.'

John's idea of 8-12 percent being where you 'can see the basic outline of their abs' seems to be lower from other people's definitions (complete abs)

Mike Israetel often recommends bulking ideally for 3-5 months at .25% bodyweight per week before cutting.
Are these people charlatans? Or am I an outlier given my low strength and non-responsiveness?

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Re: No Progress

#50

Post by Jamessmithson » Sun May 12, 2024 2:03 am

I also do a huge amount of abs because I heard they recover quick and don't get trained in the compound moves at light weights.

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Re: No Progress

#51

Post by mgil » Sun May 12, 2024 3:42 am

Quoting John Meadows with respect to BF% is kinda silly.

Anyhow, where is your own BF estimate coming from? DEXA scans? Calipers? Comparing yourself to photos? If it’s using photos, that’s never going to be accurate.

Regarding abs and seeing their outline, some males can see them at percentages in the 20s. 8-12% is shredded in the real world. Literally a water cut away from being on stage.

Citing ideas from guys on gear… Does this imply you’re also going to start doing stacks and cycles to get big?

Anyhow, try this:

1. Buy a decent scale to have in your own home. Weigh yourself at the same time of day. It doesn’t need to be done daily.

2. Buy some skin fold calipers and track measurements at the same locations each time. You can do this like once a week.

3. Figure out your basic metabolic rate.

4. Eat a clean surplus of lean protein and veggies.

5. Do less shit in the gym. I think you’re catabolic at this point.

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Re: No Progress

#52

Post by Jamessmithson » Sun May 12, 2024 4:02 am

mgil wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:42 am Quoting John Meadows with respect to BF% is kinda silly.

Anyhow, where is your own BF estimate coming from? DEXA scans? Calipers? Comparing yourself to photos? If it’s using photos, that’s never going to be accurate.

Regarding abs and seeing their outline, some males can see them at percentages in the 20s. 8-12% is shredded in the real world. Literally a water cut away from being on stage.

Citing ideas from guys on gear… Does this imply you’re also going to start doing stacks and cycles to get big?

Anyhow, try this:

1. Buy a decent scale to have in your own home. Weigh yourself at the same time of day. It doesn’t need to be done daily.

2. Buy some skin fold calipers and track measurements at the same locations each time. You can do this like once a week.

3. Figure out your basic metabolic rate.

4. Eat a clean surplus of lean protein and veggies.

5. Do less shit in the gym. I think you’re catabolic at this point.
Makes perfect sense, I'll follow all that advice. I had just been using pictures. Looking back, quoting John for bodyfat in that context was definitely was silly of me! Even though him and his advanced programs often get followed by naturals too (as the programs and some videos say; additionally, I inquired to Cris Edmonds and read a lot on reddit - that's why I quoted his 150 set advanced programs). I'll never use gear.

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CheekiBreekiFitness
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Re: No Progress

#53

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Sun May 12, 2024 4:43 am

@Jamessmithson a few things:
- as @mgil said, there is no way to measure bodyfat with a high degree of accuracy outside of one method which is dissection. If I were you I'd do away with this idea of bodyfat % altogether. Instead I'd track waist size. This is a good proxy that is easy to measure and actually useful to take decisions such as when to bulk/cut.
- this idea that by starting at a lower body fat would make you more anabolic is called "p-ratio theory" and it probably flat out wrong. I recommend this article by Greg Nuckols: https://www.strongerbyscience.com/p-ratios/ To add a personal anecdote: I've never had visible abs, and I've never had problems building muscle at while being supposedly "too fat for optimal bulking" (currently I'm 5'11, 203 lbs with a 35 inches waist). Another non-personal anecdote: sumo wrestlers are both extremely obese and extremely muscular and have been so for the last 2000 years (before anabolics ever existed). They seemed to have no problem building muscle as far as I can tell.
- The reccomendation of gaining 0.25% of your bodyweight each week from Israetel is close to my reccomendation of gaining 1kg per month, assuming that your weight is not extremely low or high. It's a slow, sustainable rate of gain that corresponds to roughly 250 kcal/day surplus, which is almost nothing, litterally it's half a snickers bar.
- I do not consider Meadows or Israetel to be charlatans. But it does not mean they cannot be wrong, andit does not mean that everything they say applies to you. Context is everything.

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DanCR
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Re: No Progress

#54

Post by DanCR » Sun May 12, 2024 8:22 am

Jamessmithson wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 12:55 am
DanCR wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 11:49 am You beat me to it. There is no chance that OP's claim to train in the @9-10 range is true. I'm not saying that he doesn't believe that; I'm saying that at over 200 sets a week of all different kinds of stuff, he's wrong. As you say, learning to train hard is part of the value in these programs. It's far easier to learn to train hard when you have limited things on which to concentrate and aren't distracted by fucking wrist curls and tibia raises lol. Of course there are outliers but what are the chances that dude is one of them?
Surely doing tibia raises and wrist curls - the only distraction would be mental effort required - and that wouldn't be an issue in a highly motivated disciplines person? Or is there something more to do with the body's neurological response in developing these additional areas? E.g. a theory why you shouldn't do cardio after strength training is that the cardio 'steals' your body's focus on improving the strength training.
One would have to be a highly motivated disciplined person at the far end of the curve - an extreme outlier. There’s a reason why nearly all very high intensity programs also are relatively minimalist.

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Re: No Progress

#55

Post by Jamessmithson » Sun May 12, 2024 8:33 am

DanCR wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 8:22 am
Jamessmithson wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 12:55 am
DanCR wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 11:49 am You beat me to it. There is no chance that OP's claim to train in the @9-10 range is true. I'm not saying that he doesn't believe that; I'm saying that at over 200 sets a week of all different kinds of stuff, he's wrong. As you say, learning to train hard is part of the value in these programs. It's far easier to learn to train hard when you have limited things on which to concentrate and aren't distracted by fucking wrist curls and tibia raises lol. Of course there are outliers but what are the chances that dude is one of them?
Surely doing tibia raises and wrist curls - the only distraction would be mental effort required - and that wouldn't be an issue in a highly motivated disciplines person? Or is there something more to do with the body's neurological response in developing these additional areas? E.g. a theory why you shouldn't do cardio after strength training is that the cardio 'steals' your body's focus on improving the strength training.
One would have to be a highly motivated disciplined person at the far end of the curve - an extreme outlier. There’s a reason why nearly all very high intensity programs also are relatively minimalist.
I've eaten 750g frozen spinach, brussell sprouts, and brocolli as well as 100g/400g plain oats with cold water every day for the last two years (health and discipline reasons). I either drink the juice of those vegetables or mix it with the oats. Been training martial arts and working out very hard since a young age. I've eaten something unhealthy twice in the last two years (a v small portion of cake and 3 sweets). Maybe I might be the extreme outlier? I'm sure the weights you guys lift require far more discipline and motivation anyway - so maybe not even an extreme outlier.

Anyway, I'll accept Mgil's advice that I'm doing too much anyway and I'm probably catabolic.

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DanCR
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Re: No Progress

#56

Post by DanCR » Sun May 12, 2024 8:48 am

Jamessmithson wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 8:33 am
DanCR wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 8:22 am
Jamessmithson wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 12:55 am
DanCR wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 11:49 am You beat me to it. There is no chance that OP's claim to train in the @9-10 range is true. I'm not saying that he doesn't believe that; I'm saying that at over 200 sets a week of all different kinds of stuff, he's wrong. As you say, learning to train hard is part of the value in these programs. It's far easier to learn to train hard when you have limited things on which to concentrate and aren't distracted by fucking wrist curls and tibia raises lol. Of course there are outliers but what are the chances that dude is one of them?
Surely doing tibia raises and wrist curls - the only distraction would be mental effort required - and that wouldn't be an issue in a highly motivated disciplines person? Or is there something more to do with the body's neurological response in developing these additional areas? E.g. a theory why you shouldn't do cardio after strength training is that the cardio 'steals' your body's focus on improving the strength training.
One would have to be a highly motivated disciplined person at the far end of the curve - an extreme outlier. There’s a reason why nearly all very high intensity programs also are relatively minimalist.
I've eaten 750g frozen spinach, brussell sprouts, and brocolli as well as 100g/400g plain oats with cold water every day for the last two years (health and discipline reasons). Been training martial arts and working out very hard since a young age. I've eaten something unhealthy twice in the last two years (a v small portion of cake and 3 sweets). Maybe I might be the extreme outlier? I'm sure the weights you guys lift require far more discipline and motivation anyway - so maybe not even an extreme outlier.

Anyway, I'll accept Mgil's advice that I'm doing too much anyway and I'm probably catabolic.
You are very impressively dedicated, but there’s a difference between regularly exerting self control, and in the moment forcing one’s self to do the last 4 reps of a 20 rep squat set with your 10RM. You may yet turn out to be the extreme outlier, but it’s difficult to know when you’ve been sandbagging all of your sets with super slow eccentrics and pauses.

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Re: No Progress

#57

Post by quikky » Sun May 12, 2024 9:16 am

Jamessmithson wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 1:13 am Just to clarify I'm being told to bulk over a long period in order to get my strength up? Is it acceptable if I start at a far lower body fat than what I am now (18 percent). Say I started at 10 percent and worked to 20 percent over a year or so (still bulking over a long time and gaining much bodyweight)? (even though my strength would be lower at 20 percent than say 27 percent).
What's your waist circumference around the belly button, on an empty stomach? Simple rule of thumb for most people:

Over 40" waist: losing body fat is a high priority
Over 37" waist: gaining body fat is not a good idea, losing some is a good idea
Under 37" waist: losing body fat is personal preference

The numbers are simply what numerous studies show as approximate cut offs for increased risk of metabolic disease.

A slow and steady bulk is absolutely required if your goal is to gain a substantial amount of muscle mass. There is no drug-free way around this. I would not worry about optimal muscle vs fat partitioning based on bodyfat percentage, or anything similar. If your waist circumference is not unhealthy, bulk up. If it is, cut until it is, and then bulk. Keep it simple.

If building muscle was a construction project to build yourself a house, volume is the number of workers you have, and nutrition is the building materials. Currently, you have two hundred construction workers, and two bricks to construct with. You don't need anywhere near that many workers, and they're counterproductive because it is very hard to manage that many, and you need more building materials. Build the house foundation first, with a much lower quantity, and a much higher quality of workers, and then worry if you need more workers.

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Re: No Progress

#58

Post by Jamessmithson » Sun May 12, 2024 3:42 pm

I genuinely really appreciate all the help I've received on this forum, it's been incredible! By far the best and most active forum I've managed to find for advice and actual interesting discussions.

I've been repeatedly advised to bulk over a longer period and get my weight up far more.
I can definitely see how I need to bulk for a year at a time rather than just 4/6 months as I had been doing, and do a normal strength program at around 5 reps. Maybe I'll cut out the minicuts too.

Regarding bulking, in Meadow's video 'The 7 Worst Mistakes Natural Lifters Make | Featuring Jeff Nippard', both have a strong aversion to 18-20 percent bodyfat when lifting . (13 minutes 10 seconds)

As previously mentioned, p-ratio is now disproved. Maybe for me, getting to a higher body fat like 18-20 percent or slightly above would allow me to get stronger and stop me being 'underweight for my frame'.

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DanCR
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Re: No Progress

#59

Post by DanCR » Sun May 12, 2024 6:53 pm

Jamessmithson wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:42 pmI genuinely really appreciate all the help I've received on this forum, it's been incredible! By far the best and most active forum I've managed to find for advice and actual interesting discussions.
If you’re gonna stick around - and I hope that you do - know that the best conversations here are in the logs. You might consider starting one.

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Re: No Progress

#60

Post by cgeorg » Tue May 14, 2024 9:34 am

Since it seems your goal is mostly aesthetic (talking a lot about looking like you lift, and worried about fat gain), can you link a picture of someone that looks like your actual end goal?

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