Post Novice? Turn Up The Volume.

[KyleSchuant]

Good point.

Sometimes I get the impression Feigenbaum's thinking things through out loud, or rather on paper. That's necessarily lengthier than if you already decided what you think ten years ago.

[Hamburgerfan]

Yes, I need an editor, too.

I will be your editor

[KyleSchuant]

"Delete all your posts" doesn't count as "editor", Hamburgler.

[Hanley]

"Delete all your posts" doesn't count as "editor", Hamburgler.

I recommend you change “editor” to the gerund “editing”.

“Delete your posts” is an example of editing. It’s not the agent of editing, the editor.

[TimK]

Austin will be writing up a fairly comprehensive article on why volume is the key for long term training.

Has he said that somewhere outside of the instagram live video?

[mgil]

Austin will be writing up a fairly comprehensive article on why volume is the key for long term training.

Has he said that somewhere outside of the instagram live video?

I think in some n00dz we swapped he mentioned that.

[simonrest]

But, after TM (which admittedly doesn't work long) then what?

Work-capacity using heavy-ish loads takes a long-motherf'n time to develop. TM-bro doesn't have work capacity. TM-Brah is fucked going forward.

TM-Brah has gained some horrid amount of body fat to lean mass while peaking, so is very likely well over 20% bf. TM-brah is fucked going forward.

The 3-4 months after TM will absolutely suck.

TM-Brah, now a big white doughball, realizes that his 245 bench and 500 dead are actually not that great. He looks vaguely pear-ish. And he has tit-buds. His wife won't suck his cock anymore.

Despair sets in.

TM-brah sees all of existence as one massive sadistic joke. He's sees an eternity of loss and suffering.

The nearest Arby's is 60 miles away.

TM-Brah can't go on, but he goes on -- now, a disgusting Tea-Bag Buddha, good only for producing copious literal shits and the occasional ranty internet post with lots of references to logical fallacies.

And -- somewhere on Saturn -- an electrical storm of incomprehensible magnitude rages on.

Excuse me, but some of us started TM fat.

[Hanley]

Excuse me, but some of us started TM fat.

[Thoughtful nod; stroke of Freud-beard]

- Talk to me about tit-buds and blowjobs...

[RedFinn]

I'm cautiously optimistic about what you guys are saying, because I find the grind - physical, yes, but especially mental - of fighting to complete sets with RPE's that keep going up is just tiring and takes away my energy and enjoyment. Lifting is hobby of mine, yes, but I also use it as a break from studying. So if lifting becomes a brutal slog it doesn't serve that function anymore. I don't need lifting to be something that requires massive psych-up and 800mg of caffeine in order to achieve my programming objectives.

I like the idea of doing sets at RPE ~8 (or alternately without letting bar speed crater to nil) and varying weight and volume depending on how I feel that day. I got sick recently and I've wound up taking roughly two weeks off because I couldn't hit my scheduled weights. I might have been better off taking less time off and lifting whatever weight achieved the required intensity/bar speed.

[simonrest]

[Thoughtful nod; stroke of Freud-beard]

- Talk to me about tit-buds and blowjobs...

Cost you $4.99 a minute, honey

[Cellist]

Jordan just said in a live instagram video that he anticipates Rip asking him and Austin to leave SS over the RPE and Volume vs. Intensity controversies.

Really though, I would love it if they voluntarily relinquish their SSC credentials to make a statement.

To call these things controversies is like calling gravity a controversial idea.

There's really no reason for them to leave as long as they can openly argue their side. I'm completely with you on the controversy part, but not all people are convinced by evidence and some of Rips views show an understanding for this mentality. BBM know that unless there is some threat to the StSt brand, Rip will tolerate it. There's no disagreement about novices and Jordan has no problem defending Rip and "Starting Strength" against other ideas. As far as the SSC accreditation goes, it qualifies one to coach the barbell lifts and guide a trainee through LP, but its not a certification for intermediate programming. Everyone with coaching experience points to the fact that people who complete an LP are a small minority of novices. At the end of LP, they are faced with many choices. Based on examples of experienced trainees like Niki Sims, the SSOC coaches eventually default to programming singles followed by 5x5, so they eventually reach the same place. Jordan pointed this out and Hambrick has basically agreed.

[Manveer]

BBM know that unless there is some threat to the StSt brand, Rip will tolerate it. There's no disagreement about novices and Jordan has no problem defending Rip and "Starting Strength" against other ideas.

Jordan said there is some disagreement about novices - mainly about how long to try and stretch out the novice LP, if I understood correctly. I don't think he is in favor of multiple resets and dropping reps just to basically peak. The novice progression is pretty short anyway, so I don't know why there is so much emphasis from Rip about optimizing it. Just switch to intermediate programming a little earlier instead of resetting. You'll probably be ahead in the long run.

As far as the SSC accreditation goes, it qualifies one to coach the barbell lifts and guide a trainee through LP, but its not a certification for intermediate programming. Everyone with coaching experience points to the fact that people who complete an LP are a small minority of novices. At the end of LP, they are faced with many choices. Based on examples of experienced trainees like Niki Sims, the SSOC coaches eventually default to programming singles followed by 5x5, so they eventually reach the same place. Jordan pointed this out and Hambrick has basically agreed.

I agree that the SS cert does not really tell you much beyond the fact that a coach can get someone to execute lifts properly (there are some exceptions to this, though - trainees at SS gyms with terrible form and SS coaches with bad form themselves).

I don't think they "eventually reach the same place" as far as programming in the post-novice phase. Otherwise what is the strong disagreement from BBM about? Obviously Jordan has his own coaching business, but I don't think that's the only reason he's arguing strongly against SSOC for post-novice programming.

[mgil]

The two dudes that took the “do no harm” oath, are massively strong, and stay current on the actual literature are anti-grinding and pushing RPE past 9 with high frequency.

The Phys Ed teacher, Geologist with a minor in Calc I, and a used car salesman with a love of pork chops and Cinemax after midnight are telling you to grind.

Who do you believe?

[MattimusMaximus]

The two dudes that took the “do no harm” oath, are massively strong, and stay current on the actual literature are anti-grinding and pushing RPE past 9 with high frequency.

The Phys Ed teacher, Geologist with a minor in Calc I, and a used car salesman with a love of pork chops and Cinemax after midnight are telling you to grind.

Who do you believe?

Definitely the used car salesman, definitely!

[KarlM]

The two dudes that took the “do no harm” oath, are massively strong, and stay current on the actual literature are anti-grinding and pushing RPE past 9 with high frequency.

The Phys Ed teacher, Geologist with a minor in Calc I, and a used car salesman with a love of pork chops and Cinemax after midnight are telling you to grind.

Who do you believe?

With a minor in Calc I! Man that was sweet!

[SJB]

The two dudes that took the “do no harm” oath, are massively strong, and stay current on the actual literature are anti-grinding and pushing RPE past 9 with high frequency.

The Phys Ed teacher, Geologist with a minor in Calc I, and a used car salesman with a love of pork chops and Cinemax after midnight are telling you to grind.

Who do you believe?

Definitely the used car salesman, definitely!

No you fool, it has to be the Geologist the used car salesmen DNL.

[Cellist]

I don't think they "eventually reach the same place" as far as programming in the post-novice phase. Otherwise what is the strong disagreement from BBM about? Obviously Jordan has his own coaching business, but I don't think that's the only reason he's arguing strongly against SSOC for post-novice programming.

You're right, he wants TM retracted:

[KyleSchuant]

Who do you believe?

We don't have enough data.

As I've said, we judge a trainer or coach's ability by how much they can improve someone's performance. But we also have to factor in retention and overall numbers affected.

So we know that Reynolds had 100+ guys at his gym pull over 500lbs. That's promising. But out of how many members? And how many others quit to never lift again? Coach A gets 10 guys to pull 500+, but only ever trains 20 guys. Coach B gets 100 guys to pull 500+ out of 1,000 gym members. Coach C gets 50 guys to do it out of 500... but 250 quit and never lift again.

What are we after? Do we want someone who's good at finding guys who are already good? Someone who's good at getting the ordinary slob to keep lifting at whatever level? Someone who can't help everyone, but who helps a lot of people?

I don't care if they have an MD or if they swept streets. I care about proven results: lifts achieved, retention, and overall numbers. And nobody will give us all that data, since most don't even keep it.

[Manveer]

There are definitely people with massive data sets. Mike T/RTS, Jordan/BBM, The Strength Athlete, probably Sheiko...

[KyleSchuant]

Do they count those who quit, though? Because that's a definite factor when you're talking about things like TM or stuff Sheiko offers.