Protein Confession

[michael]

While on my Novice Linear Progression I consumed less than 100gm of protein a day.

I didn't die. I made all kinds of gainzzz.

I still don't get more than 100gm of protein per day, and my lifts are still creeping upwards.

100gm of protein a day is probably enough.

[PatrickDB]

How much do you weigh?

I've heard 120 floated as a number. 30g 4x/day spaced 3-5 hours apart to trigger muscle protein synthesis. There's an article on Nuckols's site about this.

[TimK]

While on my Novice Linear Progression I consumed less than 100gm of protein a day.

I didn't die. I made all kinds of gainzzz.

I still don't get more than 100gm of protein per day, and my lifts are still creeping upwards.

100gm of protein a day is probably enough.

Excellent, I will now ignore all of the scientific research on this subject in light of your incontrovertible anecdotal experience.

[BenM]

What Patrick said. It's more about getting the 'optimum' dose at each sitting to trigger MPS (which is 30-40g of quality protein). If you're eating 3 meals a day this will only work out to be 90-120g a day.

Also, the younger you are, or the bigger a caloric surplus you're in, the less protein you'll actually need.

[michael]

How much do you weigh?

210 pounds.

[PatrickDB]

How much do you weigh?

210 pounds.

So, the real question is not whether you made gains, but whether you would have made better gains if you had eaten more protein.

As @TimK mentions, there's been a considerable amount of research on optimal protein take, and while estimates vary a lot and you can get away with less in a caloric surplus, I think most people would agree going less than 0.5g/lb of bodyweight is suboptimal.

[PatrickDB]

What Patrick said. It's more about getting the 'optimum' dose at each sitting to trigger MPS (which is 30-40g of quality protein). If you're eating 3 meals a day this will only work out to be 90-120g a day.

I'm actually really skeptical about this. As far as I can tell, the claim that the amount of protein necessary to optimally trigger MPS is independent of bodyweight is based on a single study, which Lyle McDonald writes about here:
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/resea ... view.html/

As he notes:

It’s still weird that there was no relationship between protein dose and total lean body mass. Chalk that up to the “I dunno” file for the time being since it makes no logical sense at a fundamental level.

Also, probably protein is good for things other than just stimulating MPS, or Jordan wouldn't routinely recommend 200+ grams of it per day to certain people.

[slowmotion]

Since we are on this subject; 1g/lb of lean mass or 1g/lb of total bw? I've seen both views.

[cwd]

I think the research establishes that 1g/lb lean bodyweight is the max useful dose of protein, i.e. more than that is just calories.

But it could easily be that half of that still gets you 80% of the max possible muscle growth. Lots of body processes work like that.

[strega]

I think the research establishes that 1g/lb lean bodyweight is the max useful dose of protein, i.e. more than that is just calories.

So at 208 pounds, my optimal protein intake is roughly a 135g?
OK, maybe I'm that fat but when you view lean bodyweight the numbers can drop pretty low
(@ 208, 30% fat and 80% instead of 1gram that's 116g of protein)

[PuddingFace]

Also, probably protein is good for things other than just stimulating MPS, or Jordan wouldn't routinely recommend 200+ grams of it per day to certain people.

In a recent podcast, possibly from the most recent BBM seminar, Jordan said something to the effect of:
- 25-30 grams of animal protein (to achieve 3-4g leucine), 4 meals per day would be adequate to optimize MPS
- to account for the trace proteins that come in the diet through vegetables, carb sources, etc, the target amount would be closer to the 200g total protein recommendation

Maybe not necessarily then that you "need" the additional protein, but that you will get additional protein by eating enough calories with a reasonable diet.

[PatrickDB]

It would be very interesting to me if you really could maximize muscle gain with just 120 grams of protein/day. Then all the previous research studying protein intake and hypertrophy would be "wrong" in the sense that total daily intake is just a weak proxy for number of MPS cycles triggered.

I haven't read it, but Lyle McDonald in The Protein Book comes down on the side of very high protein intakes after reviewing a lot of literature. I'm curious why. Probably I will cave, buy the ebook, read it on the plane, and report back soon.

[cwd]

I think the research establishes that 1g/lb lean bodyweight is the max useful dose of protein, i.e. more than that is just calories.

So at 208 pounds, my optimal protein intake is roughly a 135g?
OK, maybe I'm that fat but when you view lean bodyweight the numbers can drop pretty low
(@ 208, 30% fat and 80% instead of 1gram that's 116g of protein)

208 lbs * .7 lean fraction * 1 gram is 145g right? Seems much lower than what Jordan usually recommends.

Maybe the rule is actually: 1 gram per lb of ideal body weight, i.e. what you would weigh if you were 15% bodyfat.
So, (208 lbs * .85) * 1 g == 177 grams protein/day.

But then we're also told that older people are less protein efficient, hence need *more*. Maybe target 200g to be safe?

[strega]

I was simply guessing that at 208 my bodyfat is around 25% to 30%. If I use 3/4 of a gram instead of full gram it can get pretty small.
If use my ideal body weight I'm providing a lot of protein to my fat.

Mostly I'm just musing, I have bigger issues that protein right now. Like getting back on a formal program and dropping about 10 pounds.

[JonA]

Since we are on this subject; 1g/lb of lean mass or 1g/lb of total bw? I've seen both views.

Any numbers that you see that use 'lbs' and/or actual body weight rather than Kg of lean mass are probably garbage.

[AaronM]

Since we are on this subject; 1g/lb of lean mass or 1g/lb of total bw? I've seen both views.

Any numbers that you see that use 'lbs' and/or actual body weight rather than Kg of lean mass are probably garbage.

Across the Atlantic snobbery? We like our Imperial units.

I have no clue what studies to believe, so I just try to consume 200-250g/day, divided across 4-5 meals. My weight has been hovering around 200lb lately.

[slowmotion]

Since we are on this subject; 1g/lb of lean mass or 1g/lb of total bw? I've seen both views.

Any numbers that you see that use 'lbs' and/or actual body weight rather than Kg of lean mass are probably garbage.

It's no problem to convert from lbs to kg and back. But I take it you mean lean body mass is the one to go for.

[JonA]

It's no problem to convert from lbs to kg and back. But I take it you mean lean body mass is the one to go for.

Sure, but most Bro's don't pay attention to units, which is why you see ridiculous numbers posted sometimes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500968

That article seems to indicate that there was very little difference between 1.0g/kg (lower boundary) and 1.8g/kg (upper boundary).

[AaronM]

It's no problem to convert from lbs to kg and back. But I take it you mean lean body mass is the one to go for.

Sure, but most Bro's don't pay attention to units, which is why you see ridiculous numbers posted sometimes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500968

That article seems to indicate that there was very little difference between 1.0g/kg (lower boundary) and 1.8g/kg (upper boundary).

There's a huge difference in diet when you have to eat 4k calories/day to maintain your bodyweight. 200-250g of protein is fairly easy to hit with that many calories. Think of all the steak and other yummy proteins you'd miss out on if you never went above ~0.5g/lb.

[PatrickDB]

I read (quickly) Lyle's book.

The short summary is that he independently came to the same conclusions Jordan did regarding total protein intake (cf. To Be a Beast) and spacing of meals.

The total intake is likely a little too high, but there are a wide range of recommendations in the literature and 1g/lb in a non-diet situation will definitely produce optimal gains. It's likely you need more total than just the bare minimum necessary to stimulate MPS because protein in useful for other functions in the body, but no one really knows.