Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

Powerlifting, Olympic Weightlifting, Strongman, Highland Games

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cgeorg
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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#141

Post by cgeorg » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:17 am

DirtyRed wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:56 am FURTHERMORE, "explosiveness" can't be trained to NEARLY the extent strength or stamina can be. Thus, it's MUCH more important as a recruitment metric for any sport. I'd see this even in golf. Coaches would fall over themselves to get someone who could hit the ball really far, but was a crapshoot on whether they'd break 70 or fail to break 80 in high school, figuring that, over 4-5 years, they can learn how to hit the ball straight and stop four putting. It's hard to teach Long, especially since college golf coaches are complete morons with regards to ANY sort of effective physical training for golfers.
Did you just call me explosive?

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#142

Post by Testiclaw » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:45 am

Wow.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#143

Post by mgil » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:31 am

Testiclaw wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:45 amWow.
Yeah.

Call it appeal to authority or whatever, but most successful WL programs are clones of eastern bloc programs from the 70s/80s.

I will stand by my assumption that the USSR did some physics analysis at some point and came to some first order conclusions. These were then blended with experience from success and refined over time. Steroids and whatever else aside, the principles of programming, skill building, and accessory choices from those programs and their clones are likely a good starting point for a training program. And they don’t do LBBS with any significant frequency.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#144

Post by ch » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:57 am

DirtyRed wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:56 am
SpoilerShow
asdf wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:26 pm
DirtyRed wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:32 pm The point is, there is still exactly zero reason to ever high bar squat, ever, beyond one's own incompetence rendering them unable to do so.
High-bar back squats allow you to use the exact same stance as your front squats, which if you're a weightlifter is the same as your clean and snatch catch. The advantage is that you can use a lot more weight. The mechanics (torso angle, hip and knee movement) can be very similar to front squats (clean recovery) and hence much more sport-specific. High-bar places zero stress on your shoulders and elbows.

But yeah, other than all that, zero reason to ever high bar.
You know what mimics the snatch catch and the clean catch better than bastardized back squats? Overhead squats and front squats, respectively. Do those if you want to train "specificity."
Assclown wrote:BUTBUTBUT, HIGH BAR LETS YOU USE MORE WEIGHT!!1!
You know what lets you use even more weight (provided you aren't an incompetent baby and can actually do it)? Low bar squatting! Low bar squatting lets you use more weight than high bar for the same reason high bar lets you use more weight than front squats. Because it allows you a flatter back angle, and thus more hamstring involvement. Which, you may be saying, isn't something you want. Well then, you want front squats.

There is absolutely no logic that can be used in support of high bar squats for "weight"lifters that can't be better used in support of something else. I couldn't really argue against weightlifters never or very rarely back squatting, instead doing deadlifts and front squats for the related strength, and overhead squats to improve snatch recovery. I'd do exactly that if I gave half a shit about competing at weightlifting and didn't base 95% of my self-worth on being halfway decent at squatting.

For fuck's sake, a safety bar squat would have more relevance to weightlifting than a high bar squat. At least the knee action more closely resembles a front squat, and it will spare your apparently incredibly fragile shoulders and elbows. High bar squats are a bastardized crutch for invalids that "can't" lowbar, that does nothing that readily available alternatives don't do better.
asdf wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:43 pm
Skander wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:52 pm I actually really really really prefer low bar. It just works with my body better. I also find resources and coaching for high bar to generally suck- my high bar is just never comfortable in the way low bar is, and everyone is just like "just go down and up it's easy". And if I was really really consistent on doing front squats, it wouldn't matter, but I never am and since I know myself, and due to Olympic lifting peer pressure, I do high bar. But I just don't like it.
If you like low bar and it doesn't interfere with your clean and snatch mechanics, do it!
If doing low bar squats interferes with your clean and snatch mechanics, you shouldn't go outside without head protection. Why does no one ever bellyache that deadlifts interfere with snatch pull mechanics?

Simple, because it's really fucking stupid to say that doing a different thing is going to fuck up something one practices on a very regular basis. In the same way it's idiotic to claim that Brooks Koepka's pitching-with-a-sand-wedge motion might "interfere" with his driver swing mechanics, even though both of those things are considerably more complex than anything you do with a barbell.
KyleSchuant wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:52 pmI suspect DR snatches and jerks more than almost anyone here.
The potential accuracy of this statement aside, I must insist upon different phrasing.
Testiclaw wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:19 pm
KyleSchuant wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:52 pm
Testiclaw wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:11 pm I would love to know the weightlifters you've trained, I'm genuinely curious. I've gone back and forth with what weightlifters are "supposed to do" and what they can do that works.
I suspect DR snatches and jerks more than almost anyone here. I went to the rankings page to check, but those lifts aren't listed. Anyway, point is, he has probably figured some things out along the way.
Well, sure, of course. Your own development is key when it comes to figuring things out.

But if you have a collection of weightlifters who are all fairly competitive and all sharp lifters, that's when you really have an understanding of things.
This would only be true if you had a significantly large group of lifters you had training low bar to compare with those that trained high bar. If you don't, you're just slinging horseshit around.

Now, obviously, I have not done a fat load of high bar training myself, in order to compare and contrast to all my low bar training and how it affects my snatch and clean&jerk. But I have actually made reasoned arguments based in things like physics, biomechanics, and common sense, and the counterarguments have mostly been either a load of fallacies (mostly appeals to authority) or logic that supports my position better than theirs.
Testiclaw wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:42 pmThere has to either be a baseline of understanding in the sport I coach, or, evidence/experience/data that's compelling enough to get me curious.

If it's just, "this guy is strong", or, "I'm a powerlifter but here's what I think about programming for weightlifters", man, jog on, I'm just not interested.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Kyle, see, THIS is what I mean when I say weightlifters are like nobility. In that they're a bunch of conceited pricks doing stupid shit more for the aesthetics of it and to dismiss others who don't do that shit in order to feel high and mighty, rather than for any good reason.
PatrickDB wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:15 pm
asdf wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:13 pm
mbasic wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:50 pm I dont know if it's a contraversy perse....but I AM thoroughly enjoying the destruction of Ma Strength by the Chinese National team members on social media. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
Link or brief explanation, please.

I don't know anything about Ma Strength as an organization, but Ma himself once spent nearly an hour helping me with my lifts. No charge. I just happened to be visiting a gym where he was coaching. I think he arrived early before his team practice. Super nice, generous guy. This was like a decade ago.
Maybe this?
When China complains about "intellectual" "property" infringement of any sort:
Image
Murelli wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:32 amSince nobody discussed what I've wrote - what about those lower back fatigue credits? I'm speaking as someone who gets a lot of lower back fatigue from low bar and not nearly so much from high bar. I also hate high bar but it really does get better after you get used to the bar mashing down your traps.
For starters, I'd suggest that things that are fatiguing your lower back with heavy weights are largely accomplishing the same thing.

If you really want to avoid lower back fatigue from squatting, do front squats, and then just deadlift until your lower back is as achy and miserable as it would have been from low bar squats. I say once again that this is a much worse idea for football (among other things) than weightlifting, but it PROBABLY won't kill a football player either way (though if you were an American high school player, I'd recommend focusing greatly on the squat, whatever lets you lift the heaviest, since that seems to be what the college coaches like the most in the weight room), and it's a difference that isn't large enough to greatly matter for the average gym schlub merely trying to stay in shape and not physically disintegrate.
ch wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:46 pm
SeanHerbison wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:16 am I feel like it's a common assumption that explosive=coordinated, and I'm not sure why. In sports where size/speed/explosiveness were prominent, say... throwing heavy objects, I was awesome compared to my peers. In anything that required skill, like shooting a basket or passing in soccer, I was nowhere near the top.
Right. And once you add endurance into the equation, that confounds things even more. If you have a football-centric worldview, of course explosiveness is going to seem like the most important measure of athleticism. But there aren’t many sports with that high of a rest-to-work ratio.

The consensus best player in the NHL (Connor McDavid) had a sub-20” vertical in the scouting combine (though he did well on the Wingate).


Congratulations, this might be the stupidest thing you've ever posted. Golf, weightlifting, powerlifting, baseball, probably cricket since that appears to be just baseball for third worlders, curling, pretty much all "field" events, archery (don't yell at me, yell at the IOC), and skeet shooting (see archery) all have higher rest-to-work ratios than football.

Also, Connor McDavid isn't the consensus best player in the NHL. He's a very good, standout player on an abortion of a hockey team, making him even more standout, and likely the most "potential" having player in the league. Ovechkin still scored more goals, and more goals per game.

I'd also argue that, specifically for ice hockey, than the wingate is more relevant than vertical leap.

FURTHERMORE, "explosiveness" can't be trained to NEARLY the extent strength or stamina can be. Thus, it's MUCH more important as a recruitment metric for any sport. I'd see this even in golf. Coaches would fall over themselves to get someone who could hit the ball really far, but was a crapshoot on whether they'd break 70 or fail to break 80 in high school, figuring that, over 4-5 years, they can learn how to hit the ball straight and stop four putting. It's hard to teach Long, especially since college golf coaches are complete morons with regards to ANY sort of effective physical training for golfers.
I was talking about popular sports. And sports where you actually have to do “work.”

McDavid is the consensus best player in the NHL according to the people who matter (the players).

Explain how someone of normal height and weight can be “explosive” and have an extremely subpar vertical jump.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#145

Post by asdf » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:41 am

Testiclaw wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:34 pm
asdf wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:22 pm I'd be curious to hear how you started, your business model, etc. But maybe you don't want to share that stuff on a forum. If not, no worries.
nvm
I read your story last night before you changed your mind and deleted it. (I'm guessing that you decided it divulged too much?)

It was entertaining and informative and helpful, so thanks for taking the time that you did. I appreciate it.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#146

Post by cgeorg » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:16 am

asdf wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:41 am
Testiclaw wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:34 pm
asdf wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:22 pm I'd be curious to hear how you started, your business model, etc. But maybe you don't want to share that stuff on a forum. If not, no worries.
nvm
I read your story last night before you changed your mind and deleted it. (I'm guessing that you decided it divulged too much?)

It was entertaining and informative and helpful, so thanks for taking the time that you did. I appreciate it.
Same, thanks for sharing.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#147

Post by heidikay » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:37 am

Testiclaw wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:34 pm
asdf wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:22 pm
Testiclaw wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:36 pm It's a weird little learning experience for me. Having to balance a mix of personalities in a small space, we have a biochemist, a few students, a realtor, a mother, a PT, etc....having to juggle the proper amount of motivation and "soft side" with getting them to move well and compete even better. And having a 14yo is a big change for me.

She has a lot of potential, so my primary goal with her is making sure she enjoys training enough to want to take it more seriously. I've had to be gentle and bite my tongue a lot, but she's moving in the right direction.

The music...oh, the music. So I kicked my last male athlete out a few months, meaning all of the lifters I coach are female. We do have one male PL there, but I don't coach him, he's just a buddy who's coached by a friend. I'm starting to learn the words to CardiB songs.

I just made a deal for the 14yo to not use her phone during main movements, only accessories, and she's been handling it really well, so she's had control of the music for a few weeks.
Coaching teenagers is challenging, for sure. Sounds like you've got a good attitude and approach.

Was the all-women thing intentional? You seem kind of exclusive. I'm guessing your gym grew by word of mouth?

I'd be curious to hear how you started, your business model, etc. But maybe you don't want to share that stuff on a forum. If not, no worries.

Best of luck with your business and your lifters. Looks like a great life in a great location.
nvm
Same here -- thanks for taking the time to write it up. It was really interesting to read how someone got into coaching/owning a gym and their philosophy behind it.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#148

Post by KyleSchuant » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:21 pm

Crassed! We've learned so much from SS.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#149

Post by asdf » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:40 pm

KyleSchuant wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:21 pm Crassed! We've learned so much from SS.
There was nothing embarrassing about @Testiclaw's post. To the contrary, it was inspiring. His motivations for deleting it were different from Crass's, so it's not an apt comparison.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#150

Post by Testiclaw » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:11 pm

KyleSchuant wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:21 pm Crassed! We've learned so much from SS.
Is this your place?

https://www.instagram.com/athleticclubeast/

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#151

Post by MPhelps » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:13 pm

asdf wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:41 am
Testiclaw wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:34 pm
asdf wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:22 pm I'd be curious to hear how you started, your business model, etc. But maybe you don't want to share that stuff on a forum. If not, no worries.
nvm
I read your story last night before you changed your mind and deleted it. (I'm guessing that you decided it divulged too much?)

It was entertaining and informative and helpful, so thanks for taking the time that you did. I appreciate it.
I did too. It was a great testimony and insight into how to open a gym. I'm speculating, but maybe DR coming in in the middle of the night and flaming posters on every thread here led him to retract something personal like that.

Edit out bad language since I'm upstairs.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#152

Post by Testiclaw » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:02 pm

MPhelps wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:13 pm
asdf wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:41 am
Testiclaw wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:34 pm
asdf wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:22 pm I'd be curious to hear how you started, your business model, etc. But maybe you don't want to share that stuff on a forum. If not, no worries.
nvm
I read your story last night before you changed your mind and deleted it. (I'm guessing that you decided it divulged too much?)

It was entertaining and informative and helpful, so thanks for taking the time that you did. I appreciate it.
I did too. It was a great testimony and insight into how to open a gym. I'm speculating, but maybe DR coming in in the middle of the night and flaming posters on every thread here led him to retract something personal like that.

Edit out bad language since I'm upstairs.
heidikay wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:37 am
Testiclaw wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:34 pm
asdf wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:22 pm
Testiclaw wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:36 pm It's a weird little learning experience for me. Having to balance a mix of personalities in a small space, we have a biochemist, a few students, a realtor, a mother, a PT, etc....having to juggle the proper amount of motivation and "soft side" with getting them to move well and compete even better. And having a 14yo is a big change for me.

She has a lot of potential, so my primary goal with her is making sure she enjoys training enough to want to take it more seriously. I've had to be gentle and bite my tongue a lot, but she's moving in the right direction.

The music...oh, the music. So I kicked my last male athlete out a few months, meaning all of the lifters I coach are female. We do have one male PL there, but I don't coach him, he's just a buddy who's coached by a friend. I'm starting to learn the words to CardiB songs.

I just made a deal for the 14yo to not use her phone during main movements, only accessories, and she's been handling it really well, so she's had control of the music for a few weeks.
Coaching teenagers is challenging, for sure. Sounds like you've got a good attitude and approach.

Was the all-women thing intentional? You seem kind of exclusive. I'm guessing your gym grew by word of mouth?

I'd be curious to hear how you started, your business model, etc. But maybe you don't want to share that stuff on a forum. If not, no worries.

Best of luck with your business and your lifters. Looks like a great life in a great location.
nvm
Same here -- thanks for taking the time to write it up. It was really interesting to read how someone got into coaching/owning a gym and their philosophy behind it.
I appreciate the words, truly.

I took the scenic route to owning a gym, and I never thought it would be a weightlifting gym, but here we are.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#153

Post by Testiclaw » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:05 pm

...I just see a lot of stuff in weightlifting that reminds me of Topol raising his arm in the air and singing, "tradition!" I split vs squat jerk's an obvious one...
Next to that, I don't think high vs low vs front squat are terribly important.


...please, continue.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#154

Post by mbasic » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:01 pm

My muscle brain keeps seeing Athleticc Lu Beast

Image

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#155

Post by PatrickDB » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:47 am

DirtyRed wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:56 am FURTHERMORE, "explosiveness" can't be trained to NEARLY the extent strength or stamina can be. Thus, it's MUCH more important as a recruitment metric for any sport. I'd see this even in golf. Coaches would fall over themselves to get someone who could hit the ball really far, but was a crapshoot on whether they'd break 70 or fail to break 80 in high school, figuring that, over 4-5 years, they can learn how to hit the ball straight and stop four putting. It's hard to teach Long, especially since college golf coaches are complete morons with regards to ANY sort of effective physical training for golfers.
It's just like basketball: you can't teach length.

@mgil

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#156

Post by Skander » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:57 pm

Maybe this a pointless story, but it really got me to believe in "athletic intelligence" or whatever. I was not any kind of serious athlete in high school, but senior year we had a ultimate Frisbee league that was fun. There are forehand and backhand throws, and most normally functioning human beings can do the latter easily, but it takes a while to do the former. One day the football practice was cancelled and one of the players got bored and joined us. In any 15 minutes, he was better than 90% of the team at both throws. I can't imagine there's much carry over from bring a receiver to a forehand frisbee throw, it's just that he was really coordinated.

Perhaps there is a "athletic intelligence" that is only mildly related to other physical properties, just as academic intelligence is. If you aren't explosive or good endurance, maybe it isn't a obvious (or you do magic? Or just get by on physical genius instead of brute anything?)

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#157

Post by mbasic » Tue May 28, 2019 5:54 pm

Pretty good discussion here....


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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#158

Post by asdf » Tue May 28, 2019 11:08 pm

Thanks for reviving this thread. I re-read it from the start. A little boring in the beginning, but it really picked up steam and finished strong.

Entertaining AF! :lol:

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#159

Post by cmoney » Wed May 29, 2019 4:25 am

OCG wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:13 pm
MattNeilsen wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:33 pm
mbasic wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:45 pm I guess this goes here:
You know, the more I learn about training the more hesitant I become to comment on weird stuff like this...but damn, it sure sounds like bullshit. I guess I can see a mechanism whereby someone simply learns to use a better motor program through "activation" training, but I'm color me skeptical.
What you're seeing in the clip is this:
Bullshitter: Do like this.
Lifter: *mimes triple extension gently*
Bullshitter: Now really squeeze your ass!
Lifter: *does triple extension properly* *jumps*

Miraculous!

The language used betrays the lack of knowledge. It's not "developing motor patterns to more strongly use the glutes" or "developing a better mind muscle connection" it's "they're not using their glutes at all OMG!". And they have no idea how stupid that sounds.
these sorts of demos are basically applied kinesiology at play. Sorry, can't find the good quality vid of this Amazing Randi classic:



But that's basically what's going on. The same goes for a lot of "mobility" demonstrations.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#160

Post by OCG » Wed May 29, 2019 7:54 pm

I've seen it in person and there are lots and lots and lots of videos of similar demonstrations. Lifter gets up on stage, demonstrator is all "Hey, this thing is tight/weak! Let's fix that!", they go through a few drills, either stretch and warm up a little or activate the movement pattern a bit and hey presto! You squat looks way more mobile or this muscle that you're actually feeling and thinking about is stronger now. Like magic, but not really.

Actually, now I think about it, I've literally done the arm pushing drill (I felt way less difference than everyone else apparently). Was doing a thing, like an hour demo with a "movement specialist" or some other bullshit title. Anyway we stretched our "fascia chains", which oddly seemed to consist of a few hip and ankle stretches and saw how better our squat got. Miraculously some peoples squats felt better! Who knew? Then we did a thing where he saw how easy it was to push peoples arms down, and we did a little like, lying head pushing drill or something? Miraculously, after a little practice, people got better at holding their arms out.

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