Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

Powerlifting, Olympic Weightlifting, Strongman, Highland Games

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Savs
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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#161

Post by Savs » Thu May 30, 2019 8:40 am

cmoney wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 4:25 am
MattNeilsen wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:33 pm You know, the more I learn about training the more hesitant I become to comment on weird stuff like this...but damn, it sure sounds like bullshit. I guess I can see a mechanism whereby someone simply learns to use a better motor program through "activation" training, but I'm color me skeptical.
these sorts of demos are basically applied kinesiology at play. Sorry, can't find the good quality vid of this Amazing Randi classic:

<video>

But that's basically what's going on. The same goes for a lot of "mobility" demonstrations.
OCG wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 7:54 pm I've seen it in person and there are lots and lots and lots of videos of similar demonstrations.
I too have seen some of those videos. When I read the following passage in The Book <angelic sounds>, I thought, hmmm... doesn't sound like a carefully-conducted experiment to me.
Mr Rippetoe wrote: Do an experiment or two to demonstrate for yourself the effect of gaze direction. Assume the bottom position with knees out, toes out, and heels down. Put your chin down slightly and look at a point on the floor 4 or 5 feet in front of you. Now drive your hips up out of the bottom, and take note of how this feels. Now do the same thing while looking at the ceiling. If you have a training partner or coach, get in the bottom position and have him block your hips, with a hand placed firmly on your lower back and pushing straight down, so that you have something to push up on, but not so that he pushes you forward. Push up against the resistance while looking down at your floor focus point, and note the effectiveness of your hip drive and the power it produces. Then try this movement again while looking up. You will discover an amazing thing – that the chin-down (looking down keeps the chin down), eyes-down position enables your hip drive to function almost automatically. In contrast, the upward eye gaze pulls the chest forward, the knees forward, and the hips forward – just a little, but enough to produce a profound effect. It slacks the hamstrings and all the posterior muscles we are trying to keep tight so that we can use them to drive the hips up. The first time you do this experiment will convince you that looking down is more efficient.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#162

Post by Paul » Thu May 30, 2019 9:30 pm

That experiment actually showed a huge difference for me, but that could be because I was new, and looking at the ground helped me balance better.

One thing about tucking the chin for me (aside from feeling more balanced, which it does) is that it increases thoracic extension.

Not sure if this is typical, but the more I tuck my chin, the further I can raise my chest/extend my t-spine.

I've tested this a lot. If I stretch as far as possible looking up, I can lower my chin and get much more extension, proportional to how "tucked" my chin is.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#163

Post by Cellist » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:22 am

moosix wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:09 am Jumping leads to donkey kicking which is a waste of energy, and might make your catch slower even without the kicking. It's not a problem for power lifts (ha!), but it is for the full lifts, because you will lose precious time when you have to throw yourself under the bar.
This is actually verbatim what Murellis said in post #3. Did you copy/paste and forget to write your response or something?

Zak Talender talks about jumping in this video:


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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#164

Post by mettkeks » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:46 am

Cellist wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:22 am
moosix wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:09 am Jumping leads to donkey kicking which is a waste of energy, and might make your catch slower even without the kicking. It's not a problem for power lifts (ha!), but it is for the full lifts, because you will lose precious time when you have to throw yourself under the bar.
This is actually verbatim what Murellis said in post #3. Did you copy/paste and forget to write your response or something?

Zak Talender talks about jumping in this video:

spam account.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#165

Post by mbasic » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:09 am

spam account and bullshit aside.....

In my mind, and in the terminology we use at the Mbasic Croation School of Weight Lifting....

Raising your feet up to get into the bottom position, and doing so faster than the drop
is not a donkey kick necessarily. You can stomp a little here, sure.
But the tucking of the legs (knees and hips) is more in line of the landing posisiton of the squat.


Whereas a Donkey Kick is when one unnecessarily lifts their feet up but not their knees so much....
...kinda like a weird ass leg curl thing and THEN stomp, or kick into the ground.
Like OM does here. (lol WR holder and World Champion)


...but then, is his specific case, this kinda goes away at maximal weights.
(i.e. more knee lift, feet stay underneath the lifter instead of going behind)


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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#166

Post by mbasic » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:43 am

Jesus, I came across this and can't understand why its still on the SS main site:

https://startingstrength.com/article/a_stronger_finish

particularly:
bill starr wrote:
On his snatches and cleans, the bar would slowly move off the platform and move even more slowly upward. It looked like a halting deadlift and on his first attempt in the snatch, I thought, “He doesn’t have a chance in hell.” But right at the finish, he gave a violent trap shrug and the bar shot upward, and in less time than it takes to blink Jack had the bar firmly locked out in the bottom. Amazing. I never saw him move to the bottom. That final, powerful tug made all the difference. I was duly impressed and Jack went on to become one of America’s best lifters, mostly because of his ability to put a charge into the finish of his quick lifts.

A couple of years later, after he had clean and jerked 340 at a contest in York, Jack, Bob Hise, and I decided to see how much we could deadlift. All of us had lifted in the meet only a few days before, so we knew we wouldn’t be hitting a super-big number. We just wanted to find out what we could do in that exercise. Bobby and I did 600 and stopped there. But what was more amazing to me was that Jack could barely handle 400 lbs. Yet he had managed a 340 clean and jerk which is ten or twenty times more difficult than a 400+ deadlift. What that told me was the top was the key to making heavy attempts in the quick lifts.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#167

Post by MPhelps » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:39 am

mbasic wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:43 am Jesus, I came across this and can't understand why its still on the SS main site:

https://startingstrength.com/article/a_stronger_finish

particularly:
bill starr wrote:
On his snatches and cleans, the bar would slowly move off the platform and move even more slowly upward. It looked like a halting deadlift and on his first attempt in the snatch, I thought, “He doesn’t have a chance in hell.” But right at the finish, he gave a violent trap shrug and the bar shot upward, and in less time than it takes to blink Jack had the bar firmly locked out in the bottom. Amazing. I never saw him move to the bottom. That final, powerful tug made all the difference. I was duly impressed and Jack went on to become one of America’s best lifters, mostly because of his ability to put a charge into the finish of his quick lifts.

A couple of years later, after he had clean and jerked 340 at a contest in York, Jack, Bob Hise, and I decided to see how much we could deadlift. All of us had lifted in the meet only a few days before, so we knew we wouldn’t be hitting a super-big number. We just wanted to find out what we could do in that exercise. Bobby and I did 600 and stopped there. But what was more amazing to me was that Jack could barely handle 400 lbs. Yet he had managed a 340 clean and jerk which is ten or twenty times more difficult than a 400+ deadlift. What that told me was the top was the key to making heavy attempts in the quick lifts.
That whole site is just noise. Always has been. Those articles are all just some kind of braggadacio. I doubt Rippetoe even knows whats on there. So Jack is what you'd call an efficient lifter. Not particularly good by today's standards, but efficient. Probably would've been better if he knew modern methods that don't include the words deadlift and jump and shrug in the teaching progression.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#168

Post by asdf » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:00 am

bill starr wrote:
On his snatches and cleans, the bar would slowly move off the platform and move even more slowly upward. It looked like a halting deadlift...
Jim Moser posted a video of Jack Hill snatching. I don't see his pull as being abnormally slow. Note that this is a 122.5# man snatching 270#, which would have earned him second place at the most recent World Championships.


bill starr wrote:
A couple of years later, after he had clean and jerked 340 at a contest in York...
It does indeed appear that Hill C&J'ed 340.

http://www.lifttilyadie.com/Results/68OlyTry.htm

That too would have given him second place at the recent World Championships. He would have lost to Om Yun-Chol, who cleaned and jerked in excess of 3x bodyweight. Video is time-stamped for that lift.


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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#169

Post by mbasic » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:27 am

Jack probably looked pretty fast under the bar ... which maybe was exceptional,for his time.
Which might be like "normal" cadence from our perspective today (you and me).

So maybe other people back then were doing the rip-it-from-the-floor-because-more-speed-in-1st-pull-means-higher etc.....so maybe, back then, there was NOT a whole lot of contrast to be observed between 1st pull and explosion.

IOW, we see Jack as today-normal.

And as results bare out, he was/is an exceptional lifter.

And also, who knows about about that play back speed of that clip... an uploaded YT video, of a video recording, of an old reel-to-reel film footage from the 60's, replayed on Moser's VHS/TV at home. The whole thing looks compressed vertically...which might effect perspective of how fast things go up and down...maybe.

-------------------------
lolz
Announcer: " ...the hips are down, the back is flat, the head is up..."

-------------------------

I wonder what Om's max conv.deadlift is? ... I'm guessing 210-220. I believe he has cleaned ~180kg (nojerk)

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#170

Post by Skander » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:29 am

I actually did see a former powerlifter do an Olympic meet. His clean really did look like a deadlift with a shrug, but it would seem you can convert a 600+# pull into a 150kg clean and jerk even with terrible form...

In any case, it seems like Bill totally missed the quad contribution to the lift- the "shrug" might just be easier to see.

He also totally misses the specificity of strength. My clean and jerk is probably the best it's been, but my deadlift has been ignored and I'm pretty sure it's 70+ pounds below my max- and possibly below my squat right now. Catalyst just posted a video on this.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#171

Post by asdf » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:51 pm

Skander wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:29 am Catalyst just posted a video on this.
Wow. He's put out a ton of content recently. I haven't been paying attention to his channel. Last videos I watched were his commentaries on training sessions, which were years ago.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#172

Post by MPhelps » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:36 pm

Speak of my devil, I just watched his latest YouTube video. It seems he kind of indirectly debunks a certain fat little janitor about his strength theories.


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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#173

Post by mbasic » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:03 pm

HOT TAKE:

Over pulling the bar excessively high will get you injured.

That is all.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#174

Post by ChasingCurls69 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:23 pm

mbasic wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:03 pm HOT TAKE:

Over pulling the bar excessively high will get you injured.

That is all.
Tell us moar. I've been trying to learn how to meet the bar better instead of pulling it super high and having the weight fall onto me instead of a real catch.

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TOP DOWN METHOD

#175

Post by mbasic » Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:51 am

ChasingCurls69 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:23 pm
mbasic wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:03 pm HOT TAKE:

Over pulling the bar excessively high will get you injured.

That is all.
Tell us moar. I've been trying to learn how to meet the bar better instead of pulling it super high and having the weight fall onto me instead of a real catch.
IDK, not a top-expert on fixing things that are broken....or even teaching from scratch.
Also, this has to do with full-squat-clean (and full snatch), not at all how to improve your power variants.

In my opinion, from what I see around and my (limited) experience ... this is one of the most common mistakes/problems with lifters.
Its probably because everyone learns how to power clean / power snatch first.
Then the power clean + front squat from catch is introduced....like the recent SSFG video, Chases lifting, etc.

On a more maximal power clean, even caught somewhat high, most people will have their hips too far underneath the bar and a lot of dosri-flexion at the catch point. If they are forced to continue to squat downward from there, they either .... Actually, the whole lift could be balanced fine, but you've put yourself in a position (when the bar meets the shoulders) to where you can't fold down optimally into the squat.

#1- have to sit onto their ankles in a weird-too-forward balance arrangement. Torso in too vertical way too high up in the lift.
OR
#2- at some point near bottom, their hips will scoot-back (be forced back) at they finally come to a rest at the bottom. This will result in a pause, fidgeting around.... or at least not getting a good crisp bounce out of the bottom.

#1- above .... you are asking a lot of your knees, ankle, and quads.
I believe this is how a tore/pulled a quad over a year ago. I've seen some others do it as well.

Here:



They pretty much are saying "he basically powered this"...."much upside".
But no. He hurt himself.
Imagine descending from that position^ into a full squat.
Is his knees just going to keep going forward from their already forward-position ? (no)
They are going to have to stop, and he's either going to popped out the back; or the bar will pop the the front; or his hips are going to have to go back, and then possible his torso with have to re-upright itself. Too much wonkyness.

-----------------------------

The idea that a squat-clean can sort of being chalked-up as a "failed" power clean (not caught high enough to be called 'power catch') is completely wrong and erroneous IMO ... or at least in the context of a guy who had been exclusively power-cleaning up to the point.

I think if I had to train a guy, from scratch, it would be from the top down, and we would never powerclean, or power snatch (from the floor) to "learn" the full lifts.

Especially if a guy came from a similar background as myself (football, gym rat, whatev) most of the people around here, and already involved in "gym life" ...squatting and deadlifting. Pulling power or potential to pull is off-the-chart compared to their inherent front-squatting ability.

I would do something like this, but not this exactly:
(starting at 0:34 particularly)



There was a series of old videos (2000's) taken Columbus University showing a top down method.,,,wish I could find those.
I think they even used blocks set high. Haven't seen in 5-7 years.

Maybe like this for snatch.
(this is a real old & rough video, but at least its 'organic' and authentic)


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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#176

Post by asdf » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:43 am

ChasingCurls69 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:23 pm I've been trying to learn how to meet the bar better instead of pulling it super high and having the weight fall onto me instead of a real catch.
Practice, practice, practice. That's the only way to develop the proper timing and feel. A rough analogy might be doing a broad jump for a given distance or jumping to a box. If your max broad jump is 8 feet, how do you accurately jump just 6? If you can box jump to 4 feet, how do you accurately jump to just 2? In my experience, such problems diminish and ultimately disappear naturally with accumulated reps.
Last edited by asdf on Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TOP DOWN METHOD

#177

Post by Hardartery » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:02 am

mbasic wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:51 am
ChasingCurls69 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:23 pm
mbasic wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:03 pm HOT TAKE:

Over pulling the bar excessively high will get you injured.

That is all.
Tell us moar. I've been trying to learn how to meet the bar better instead of pulling it super high and having the weight fall onto me instead of a real catch.
IDK, not a top-expert on fixing things that are broken....or even teaching from scratch.
Also, this has to do with full-squat-clean (and full snatch), not at all how to improve your power variants.

In my opinion, from what I see around and my (limited) experience ... this is one of the most common mistakes/problems with lifters.
Its probably because everyone learns how to power clean / power snatch first.
Then the power clean + front squat from catch is introduced....like the recent SSFG video, Chases lifting, etc.

On a more maximal power clean, even caught somewhat high, most people will have their hips too far underneath the bar and a lot of dosri-flexion at the catch point. If they are forced to continue to squat downward from there, they either .... Actually, the whole lift could be balanced fine, but you've put yourself in a position (when the bar meets the shoulders) to where you can't fold down optimally into the squat.

#1- have to sit onto their ankles in a weird-too-forward balance arrangement. Torso in too vertical way too high up in the lift.
OR
#2- at some point near bottom, their hips will scoot-back (be forced back) at they finally come to a rest at the bottom. This will result in a pause, fidgeting around.... or at least not getting a good crisp bounce out of the bottom.

#1- above .... you are asking a lot of your knees, ankle, and quads.
I believe this is how a tore/pulled a quad over a year ago. I've seen some others do it as well.

Here:



They pretty much are saying "he basically powered this"...."much upside".
But no. He hurt himself.
Imagine descending from that position^ into a full squat.
Is his knees just going to keep going forward from their already forward-position ? (no)
They are going to have to stop, and he's either going to popped out the back; or the bar will pop the the front; or his hips are going to have to go back, and then possible his torso with have to re-upright itself. Too much wonkyness.

-----------------------------

The idea that a squat-clean can sort of being chalked-up as a "failed" power clean (not caught high enough to be called 'power catch') is completely wrong and erroneous IMO ... or at least in the context of a guy who had been exclusively power-cleaning up to the point.

I think if I had to train a guy, from scratch, it would be from the top down, and we would never powerclean, or power snatch (from the floor) to "learn" the full lifts.

Especially if a guy came from a similar background as myself (football, gym rat, whatev) most of the people around here, and already involved in "gym life" ...squatting and deadlifting. Pulling power or potential to pull is off-the-chart compared to their inherent front-squatting ability.

I would do something like this, but not this exactly:
(starting at 0:34 particularly)



There was a series of old videos (2000's) taken Columbus University showing a top down method.,,,wish I could find those.
I think they even used blocks set high. Haven't seen in 5-7 years.

Maybe like this for snatch.
(this is a real old & rough video, but at least its 'organic' and authentic)

I am no expert on O-lifts, and I'm not particularly good at them. Maybe if I had tried them before my late 20's, but at any rate I just wanted to make it clear that I'm asking a question to help expand my understanding a little. And anyone with expertise please respond.
I watched these two videos, and in both of them the lifters all seem to be executing the pull, catching, and then slowly dropping into the bottom position after they have completed the lift. How is this teaching them to get under the bar and execute the catch from a low position? Is there an actual carryover somehow?

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Re: TOP DOWN METHOD

#178

Post by damufunman » Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:13 pm

Hardartery wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:02 am I am no expert on O-lifts, and I'm not particularly good at them. Maybe if I had tried them before my late 20's, but at any rate I just wanted to make it clear that I'm asking a question to help expand my understanding a little. And anyone with expertise please respond.
I watched these two videos, and in both of them the lifters all seem to be executing the pull, catching, and then slowly dropping into the bottom position after they have completed the lift. How is this teaching them to get under the bar and execute the catch from a low position? Is there an actual carryover somehow?
Also not an expert nor particularly good, but my understanding is that there exists two camps: pull bar high and meet it there (put full effort into each lift), or limit pull height and catch it low. Dunno which is correct, and I suspect it depends on the lifter's needs. For example, I did powers first, so I tend to catch things higher and have room to catch lower on my max attempts, so I typically try to catch everything lower rather than catch high and ride down (right or wrong).

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Re: TOP DOWN METHOD

#179

Post by Cellist » Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:17 pm

Hardartery wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:02 am
I am no expert on O-lifts, and I'm not particularly good at them. Maybe if I had tried them before my late 20's, but at any rate I just wanted to make it clear that I'm asking a question to help expand my understanding a little. And anyone with expertise please respond.
I watched these two videos, and in both of them the lifters all seem to be executing the pull, catching, and then slowly dropping into the bottom position after they have completed the lift. How is this teaching them to get under the bar and execute the catch from a low position? Is there an actual carryover somehow?
This might help explain why:

https://www.catalystathletics.com/video ... ing-Depth/

even more:

https://www.catalystathletics.com/video ... ng-Height/

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#180

Post by mbasic » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:39 am

Lu doesn't bench ... really.
Can only strict OHP 80 to 90 kilos.
Can bottom-up OHS 220 kilos.
Squat jerk from rack PR is 230.

Enuff sed.



I don't give any credence to what he says about benching vs. not benching, and benching 'ruining' your shoulder mobility .... sure, some of that might be true to a certain extent depending on the context, etc. But the moral of the story, full ROM pressing movements do not carry-over (much) to going thru that same ROM under a almost weightless condition (feet are not in contact w/ the floor or loaded) during the "push-under" phase of the jerk .... except for the final lockout.

The lockout portion of the ROM of your strict over-head-press, is a really relatively a low weight compared to the weight of the jerk.

Jerks, power jerks, push jerks, push press, jerk supports, jerk recoveries, are all better options.

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