LOW TESTOSTERONE???

[PatrickDB]

Me too. My doc just had me do a lab and my total testosterone was 287 ng/dL. It would be interesting to see how tripling this number might affect my training. For science.

For what it's worth, given your age and the fact you (hopefully) had a normal puberty, I'd guess this is due to something other than your balls being broken.

Sleep deprivation would be my first guess, possibly sleep apnea or some other sleep disorder. If you aren't getting 7-8 uninterrupted, quality hours every night, that's going to screw your levels. (Don't ask me how I know this.) Your log indicates that you also have a 39" waist, which is another possible culprit (and a risk factor for sleep apnea). Very important to get screened for sleep apnea before injecting shit because apparently T injections actually worsen it.

I'm not a doctor, this information is presented for entertainment purposes only, seek the care of a medical professional.

[KyleSchuant]

There was a good Art of Manliness article where he did everything he could short of drugs to get his T up - better sleep, better food, exercise - and it worked. Let's see... Here it is.

Obviously some people have a genuine medical issue. But lots of us can improve our health by doing all that boring stuff grandma told us to, "early to bed, early to rise... eat your veggies, dear" and so on.

This isn't always simple to do, like with two young kids my sleep will be shit. I could just go to bed earlier but then I'd miss my own workouts. Kids in the day, training people afternoons and evenings till 2100, workout then, too buzzed from workout to go straight to sleep but am in bed by 2230... usually woken at 0530. Not ideal, but I try to make up for it a bit by more vegies, a bit of quiet time during the day, that sort of thing. I have a checklist... dull, I know.

[platypus]

Me too. My doc just had me do a lab and my total testosterone was 287 ng/dL. It would be interesting to see how tripling this number might affect my training. For science.

For what it's worth, given your age and the fact you (hopefully) had a normal puberty, I'd guess this is due to something other than your balls being broken.

Sleep deprivation would be my first guess, possibly sleep apnea or some other sleep disorder. If you aren't getting 7-8 uninterrupted, quality hours every night, that's going to screw your levels. (Don't ask me how I know this.) Your log indicates that you also have a 39" waist, which is another possible culprit (and a risk factor for sleep apnea). Very important to get screened for sleep apnea before injecting shit because apparently T injections actually worsen it.

I'm not a doctor, this information is presented for entertainment purposes only, seek the care of a medical professional.

I don't have sleep apnea - at least as far as I know. I get 7-8 hours a night, usually waking up twice to pee and falling back asleep immediately. It's been like this since I started taking melatonin about a year ago. Previously my sleep was not good at all except when medicated. I do have excellent sleep hygiene.

Interestingly, I didn't start exhibiting any symptoms of low T until about six months ago, which coincides with when I started losing weight. I weighed 235 at my heaviest last summer, and I've slowly gone down to 211 by not stuffing my face every day. My weight loss has been slow enough to where I doubt it would have negatively affected me in any way, though.

I'll turn this into an experiment, actually. I'll do the following, then retest my levels in another three months or so:
- consume vegetables every day (other than this I'm already eating healthy. Lots of meat, eggs, fruit, and rice)
- Lose a few inches off my waist
- quit heating my food in plastic containers, as per @@KyleSchuant's article

Anything else I should add?

[topfen]

Man, I don't even want to know how crap my testosterone levels are Thanks for the article @KyleSchuant. Nothing "new", but gives me something to work with. Might even get some sleep pills.

[PatrickDB]

Vegetables and ditching plastic containers aren't going to do anything. The only possible dietary issue I can think of is a zinc deficiency, though I doubt that's the case.

You need to find a way to sleep through the night. I also woke up multiple times during the night, and finding a way to not do that plus losing weight fixed everything. Get a sleep study done if you have to.

Next time you get tested, make sure it's in the morning, fasted, and skip the workout before the test.

[KyleSchuant]

Vegetables and ditching plastic containers aren't going to do anything

I don't care about the plastic containers. But eating more vegetables certainly isn't going to do anyone any harm. More fibre reduces the chances of bowel cancer, for example, which men are particularly prone to. What I like as possible solutions to problems like low T are things which are good things to do anyway, like eating better food and exercising. Even if they don't help problem X, they'll help problem Y, and reduce the chances of problem Z.

While happily digging into the weeds of scientific papers, Patrick, don't become that pedantic unhelpful guy. We had enough of them back on SS.

[PatrickDB]

Vegetables and ditching plastic containers aren't going to do anything

I don't care about the plastic containers. But eating more vegetables certainly isn't going to do anyone any harm. More fibre reduces the chances of bowel cancer, for example, which men are particularly prone to. What I like as possible solutions to problems like low T are things which are good things to do anyway, like eating better food and exercising. Even if they don't help problem X, they'll help problem Y, and reduce the chances of problem Z.

While happily digging into the weeds of scientific papers, Patrick, don't become that pedantic unhelpful guy. We had enough of them back on SS.

Oh, I'm certainly not suggesting he shouldn't eat more vegetables. I think adding more fruits and veggies is the second-best dietary intervention after restricting calories (assuming excess body fat -- otherwise it's number one). I am completely pro-vegetable.

But speaking from experience, I think dealing with the sleep thing is necessary and sufficient. I was able to double my total T measurement, from a starting level a little higher than platypus's, in about a week or two just by getting uninterrupted sleep and skipping workouts to reduce overall fatigue.

[Hanley]

While happily digging into the weeds of scientific papers, Patrick, don't become that pedantic unhelpful guy.

@PatrickDB : I think you've proven to be one of the most helpful guys on the forum.

[mgil]

While happily digging into the weeds of scientific papers, Patrick, don't become that pedantic unhelpful guy.

@PatrickDB : I think you've proven to be one of the most helpful guys on the forum.

Yeah. Someone needs to dig through the PubMed stuff. Ain’t gonna be me.

[platypus]

Vegetables and ditching plastic containers aren't going to do anything. The only possible dietary issue I can think of is a zinc deficiency, though I doubt that's the case.

Yeah, it did seem a little hand wavy.

You need to find a way to sleep through the night. I also woke up multiple times during the night, and finding a way to not do that plus losing weight fixed everything. Get a sleep study done if you have to.

Next time you get tested, make sure it's in the morning, fasted, and skip the workout before the test.

That makes sense. I'll start with some cardio, that ought to help with the weight loss and no doubt I'll sleep better when I'm worn out.

And vegetables, of course.

[Hanley]

Yeah, it did seem a little hand wavy.

What could The Manliness Artist possibly have to say about endocrinology?

Hand wavy?

It's a spew of total bullshit.

[KyleSchuant]

speaking from experience, I think dealing with the sleep thing is necessary and sufficient.

I would agree it's probably the single most important part of any change for health (whether measured by T or anything else). But these things tie together. I trained one guy, his regular breakfast was a white bread roll with chicken loaf and mayo.
I said: "Set the alarm fifteen minutes earlier, have oats."
"Hey I do nightshift! Every minute of sleep matters!"
"I'm a parent, I get it. But here's the thing... didn't you say you're taking metamucil?"
"Yeah."
"You're a 30yo guy taking metamucil. Do you agree this is not normal? Now, when you're constipated, is it harder to get to sleep? Do you sometimes wake feeling uncomfortable and needing to go? If you had more fibre, do you think you might find things flow better? And maybe, okay, 15 minutes less sleep at the end, but maybe you'd get to sleep more easily, and your sleep would be better-quality?"

So he tried it and found he didn't need the metamucil, and his sleep was better. So I think these things tie together.

I agree you're one of the most useful and informed posters here. But some coaching or teaching experience makes you understand how your words come across - people are looking for any excuse to avoid doing what they need to do. The metamucil guy was a doctor, by the way, so it's not like he didn't know this stuff already - but he did need someone to tell him to do it. So rather than say, "X is all that matters" (which is what "necessary and sufficient" means, really, and could lead to people regularly eating KFC before going to bed early), you'll find yourself saying, "X is the most important thing, but even if Y and Z don't help much by themselves, they certainly won't hurt, and they'll help X, too. So focus on X, but try to do Y and Z, too."

All this detailed science matters, a lot. But it's the 80/20 rule once again. It's like the USA's National Weight Control Registry. They've done stacks of studies and learned a lot and found some interesting things that need further study. But... the people who lost weight and kept it off,

"Most report continuing to maintain a low calorie, low fat diet and doing high levels of activity.

78% eat breakfast every day.
75% weigh themselves at least once a week.
62% watch less than 10 hours of TV per week.
90% exercise, on average, about 1 hour per day."

Apart from the "weighing yourself" bit, most of those changes are stuff most people would intuitively understand are good things to do anyway; much the same applies to many of the AoM guy's recommendations for T.

Some relatively simple changes can make a big difference to people's lives. I don't think you need to be an endocrinologist to figure that out.

Now I have to go eat those two cups of vegies I didn't have at lunch.

[PatrickDB]

Thanks for the post, Kyle. I think that habit formation angle is really interesting. I'm not sure if you watched the video in the "Optimizing Novice Gainz" thread, but it talks about many of the same things. The psychology of how people react to training and diet advice, and how well they comply with it, is really weird. I post so much here about how to optimize little things here and there that I sometimes forget that for most people, just doing some basic lifting twice a week and cutting soda and sweets from their diet is challenging (but would do great things for them). As you say, it's the 80/20 rule. I know this sounds corny, but I enjoy your anecdotes about working with the "general population" for that reason -- because you have to solve psychological problems as well as physical ones.

And now you've got me thinking about my fiber intake...

[KyleSchuant]

Honestly, I think the most important coaching/training people skill is getting them to show up. If they do that, generally the other stuff will follow. Now, most of us who've worked in the industry know a few things, like making newbies comfortable, having a good community and all that, but... really, nobody knows. If they did, they'd be a billionaire.

I wish the basics could be taken for granted. But I definitely agree the sleep is most important. For what it's worth, Stef Bradford said that at a presentation at a seminar, once - she reckoned it was more important than nutrition for novice results, didn't say anything about later stages.

[Hanley]

But some coaching or teaching experience makes you understand how your words come across

You're just fucking with me now.

[perman]

But some coaching or teaching experience makes you understand how your words come across

You're just fucking with me now.

lol

[ch]

But... the people who lost weight and kept it off,

"Most report continuing to maintain a low calorie, low fat diet and doing high levels of activity.

78% eat breakfast every day.
75% weigh themselves at least once a week.
62% watch less than 10 hours of TV per week.
90% exercise, on average, about 1 hour per day."

The bolded is why I think the telling people “you don’t need to exercise to lose weight”—while technically true—is dangerous.

I’m curious to know how many of those people take part in a competitive sport or physical hobby (e.g. hiking) outside the gym. It’s a concrete motivator—not something nebulous like “health” or “look better naked.” Bodyweight obviously affects sports performance. Everyone I know that’s lost a lot of weight and kept it off does something competitive, and at least one person I know gained weight back quickly when he gave up the sport.

[platypus]

Some relatively simple changes can make a big difference to people's lives.

In one of his books John Sheaffer mentioned a client, a former crossfitter/paleo dieter, who had started eating poorly and not exercising post-pregnancy. She felt overwhelmed and didn't know where to start. He told her to eat a paleo breakfast every morning.

Next thing you know she's shopping out of the produce and meat section and her lunch and dinner get healthier too. And once she was eating well she started exercising again.

[anelson]

But speaking from experience, I think dealing with the sleep thing is necessary and sufficient. I was able to double my total T measurement, from a starting level a little higher than platypus's, in about a week or two just by getting uninterrupted sleep and skipping workouts to reduce overall fatigue.

My n=1 is similar. I cannot eat enough (in quality or quantity) to outpace my chronic poor sleep. The effects of good sleep are quite acute for me, as well. Give me a couple consecutive good nights of sleep, and I'm as randy as a billy goat.

[vanslix]

I know this isn't mentioned in this episode (it probably will be in part 2), but I think their position that variations in testosterone levels within the "normal range" (i.e. whatever +/- 2 SDs is in a bunch of lab samples) don't matter for strength training is just wrong. See, for example:
http://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.11 ... 81.6.E1172

I could postulate some reasons why that study is misleading.

Also, I think Jordan has mentioned somewhere, there was a study that suggested that some of the better performing athletes were in fact at the lower end of the range of "normal", rather at the upper end.

HUGE difference between taking someone and artificially altering their T than looking at where athletes naturally reside on a curve. There are plenty at the lower end because there is so, so, so, so much more to testosterone than just the absolute plasma level.

And you can thank our federal government for essentially shutting down all legit medical research on the subject when they made it a schedule II substance back during the baseball bullshit. Consequently, we are far behind the curve on our understanding of the subject.