Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 5:22 am
@mbasic you said brief stint. what made you stop?
Leaving false strength conventions behind
https://www.exodus-strength.com/forum/
interesting...my first go around last fall i ended up with the same dick issues around week 5 or 6, freaked out and quite immediately. apparantly that can be a side effect of high e2 or possibly cortisol. im back on at half the dose and giving it a 2nd try bc there are also some positives id like to be able to hold on to. but if i end up with the same problems as last time then ill know TRT just aint for me.
this is very possible for me as well and likely for many others. which is why a number in itself is not really a good indication. everybody has different sensitivity.
100% agree. And if someone 'feels' better in measurable ways like regular sleep patterns, stabilized mood...then it is likely their body has issues regulating hormone levels that might not reach the level of diagnosable. Everything exists on a continuum.
Elevated E2 manifests in bloat. The dose they put you in was almost certainly too high, and stopping cold turkey was a mistake. You get some craziness at first, not so much from high E2 as from having enough hormones floating around and you're not used to it anymore which is exacerbated by a high starting dose. The better starting dose is 80-100mg and titrate up, personally I do best at around 120-125mg a week.cole wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 12:27 pmNo, I abruptly stopped the therapy and did not go back in for follow up labs. Looking back that was a mistake. My pre E2 levels were in the normal range. I am against the AI, it seems stupid to have to take something to counter something I am taking voluntarily. If anything, I would simply ask for a lower dose if my E2 were going up. I honestly think I was just given too high a dose and not enough time to adjust to it. I started at 180mg/wk. I am re-starting with 80mg/wk which is a joke I know but I would rather just titrate up very slowly until I know I am good. I have time.....GlasgowJock wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:51 amWas your estradiol levels measured prior/ during/ after TRT cycle to ascertain if it was excess E2? Have you discussed/ explored an AI alongside TRT if you have such data recorded?cole wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:53 pm ...then things got a little out of hand and my anxiety went through the roof, moody like a teenager, and got ED (probably from estradiol going up along with T)"... Considering giving it another go this time with half the dose. Not sure if I want to subject myself to it again....
Diagnosis is typically 2 or three labs BELOW RANGE. There is not a specific number because labs differ, it depends on the lab. I got prescribed by an endo based on two labs, and I was not looking for or interested in TRT at the time. Injecting hormones is just like injecting insulin for a type 1 diabetic. They ran all of the labs, MRI's and scans they could come up with in my case and no cause in particular could be determined to address, which unfortunately is the case for most men with the problem right now. It would be nice for medicine to progress to curing it.aurelius wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:00 pm I think what is missing from the discussion is abnormal physiology such as hypogonadism. To diagnose hypogonadism insurance companies require 3 tests in one week performed before 10 AM all below 150 ng/dl. The treatment protocols are for that. Consider that someone with abnormal physiology (hypogonadism):
--body has difficulty/cannot naturally reach homeostasis
--that without the body's natural ability to regulate and produce testosterone to stresses in real time that more overall artificial testosterone is required to achieve a similar effect
--TRT does not 'cure' an individual with hypogonadism. It only treats the symptoms. A person that artificially injects hormones will not operate like a normal, healthy individual.
I didnt have any bloat although my weight did skyrocket. I was on 180mg/wk so yeah i agree it was too high. i felt like a teenager haha. stopping cold turkey actually was nice bc for about 2 weeks i started to feel great as my T dropped back into a more tolerable range. then after a month of no T i was back to being a sloth again.Hardartery wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:12 pm
Elevated E2 manifests in bloat. The dose they put you in was almost certainly too high, and stopping cold turkey was a mistake. You get some craziness at first, not so much from high E2 as from having enough hormones floating around and you're not used to it anymore which is exacerbated by a high starting dose. The better starting dose is 80-100mg and titrate up, personally I do best at around 120-125mg a week.
No AI. I very much bloated initially, and it depends on which ester how much for me. Cypionate turned me into the Michelin man for a while but Sustanon doesn't bloat me at all - not that you have that as an option probably. It's about waiting and letting things level out, the levels dropped slowly over time so you adjusted with it, but they are going back up kind of abruptly so you have to wait out the adjustment. An AI would likely crush your estrogen to near zero at TRT doses (Ask me how I know) which is way, way worse than what already happened to you.cole wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:43 pmI didnt have any bloat although my weight did skyrocket. I was on 180mg/wk so yeah i agree it was too high. i felt like a teenager haha. stopping cold turkey actually was nice bc for about 2 weeks i started to feel great as my T dropped back into a more tolerable range. then after a month of no T i was back to being a sloth again.Hardartery wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:12 pm
Elevated E2 manifests in bloat. The dose they put you in was almost certainly too high, and stopping cold turkey was a mistake. You get some craziness at first, not so much from high E2 as from having enough hormones floating around and you're not used to it anymore which is exacerbated by a high starting dose. The better starting dose is 80-100mg and titrate up, personally I do best at around 120-125mg a week.
this time around i started at 80mg/wk and its going much better. im sure i will titrate as well.
Do you need an AI with your therapy?
Attached the stated policies of Cigna (who I had) and United Health (who I have now). Cigna references normal laboratory reference values only. United Health states 300 ng/dL or lower than the normal laboratory reference value. I did this under Cigna about a year ago and was told by the provider it was 150 ng/dl to be considered low. And it was two tests. Maybe that is low in their reference range?Hardartery wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:17 pmDiagnosis is typically 2 or three labs BELOW RANGE. There is not a specific number because labs differ, it depends on the lab
My estrogen is in normal ranges and I take 1 mg of anastrozole per week. I did start with half (0.5 mg) per week. What was your dosage? I also inject test twice weekly. That may make a difference. But I didn't have high estrogen when I was injecting once per week.Hardartery wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:59 pmAn AI would likely crush your estrogen to near zero at TRT doses (Ask me how I know) which is way, way worse than what already happened to you.
IIRC,
Who is everyone? I can't find anything that follows your recommendations. The ones I do find are for juicers doing 0.5 mg every other day.
I feel like the private clinics will work with you more than a PCP would, and not to mention they dont take insurance so you dont have to jump through hoops. I pay 115/mo, which is not very expensive considering they ship you all your supplies, coordinate and interpret regular labwork, and are available for you on demand. I would never bring this to my PCP
That is sweet. What is the service you use?cole wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:35 pmI feel like the private clinics will work with you more than a PCP would, and not to mention they dont take insurance so you dont have to jump through hoops. I pay 115/mo, which is not very expensive considering they ship you all your supplies, coordinate and interpret regular labwork, and are available for you on demand. I would never bring this to my PCP
hey man, not trying to say you are really doing something wrong or anything, but just letting you know what's common in the practice.....and you should be aware of some of this stuff. Most doctors are sorta clueless on much of the science.aurelius wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:34 pmWho is everyone? I can't find anything that follows your recommendations. The ones I do find are for juicers doing 0.5 mg every other day.
I have now been to two separate providers who both recommend 1 mg per week (the day after the injection) for a once per week injection. GoodRX has the price for 30 1 mg pills of anastrozole at ~$25.
Right, in cases like Viagra, it was originally intended for HBP treatment.And just a side note: drugs are used for purposes they were not originally intended all the time.
I use Wittmer Rejuvination Clinic. I live in Colorado. WRC is in Missouri. I have only ever done a couple zooms and phone calls. If I had to physically go in person on a regular basis and let someone inject me, I would never do this. Not that important. But the extreme ease and convenience and low cost are what made me decide to give it a try. I will say the NP's are more concerned with your well being and how things are going than the Drs at this clinic. The Docs just get on the zoom and are like "do you want this or not?" and spend about 30 seconds with you. If you have concerns then best to speak to the nurses.
You have made 2 arguments from authority "Everyone knows" and "common practice" while providing no supporting documentation. Then go on to say that there is no documentation. Then how does 'everyone know' what 'common practice' is? I was able to find some documentation of AI studies on TRT patients but it is behind pay walls so didn't post it.mbasic wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 4:08 amhey man, not trying to say you are really doing something wrong or anything, but just letting you know what's common in the practice.....and you should be aware of some of this stuff. Most doctors are sorta clueless on much of the science.
THEN YOU SAY THIS
I'm not 99% sure on this, as things could have changes in the last few years, you can't much if anything in the way of trials/studies on AI being used on MEN for the purposes of controlling E2 .... especially in a population of men on TRT. Its like steroids or avanvar .... they ain't going to do studies on stuff that's used off label, etc. but in wierd cases. Like, you might find a study on avanar used on full body burn victims to fend off atrophy while bedridden for a year..... IDK if there much to be learned there for Joe Gym Rat Blow.
Sorry for the late response, I am out of town on Thursdays and Fridays and don't take the laptop with me. Because I'm generally involved with concrete until late every day and it's just not a setup conducive to getting online anyway. I have been BC/BS for a long time now, my "Residence" is technically SC, and Cigna and United are less than good options there for the times I am actually in the country. I did rather a lit if reading and research when I started, the bottle of testgel sat in a drawer waiting for me to decide what I actually wanted to do versus what the endo was offering. The gel sucks, and is not available most places where I spend the most time, so I ruled it out right away and then spent some time deciding if I really wanted to make the leap. Based on what I learned then, early 2018, I started on injections.aurelius wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:42 pmAttached the stated policies of Cigna (who I had) and United Health (who I have now). Cigna references normal laboratory reference values only. United Health states 300 ng/dL or lower than the normal laboratory reference value. I did this under Cigna about a year ago and was told by the provider it was 150 ng/dl to be considered low. And it was two tests. Maybe that is low in their reference range?Hardartery wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:17 pmDiagnosis is typically 2 or three labs BELOW RANGE. There is not a specific number because labs differ, it depends on the lab
https://chk.static.cigna.com/assets/chc ... mplant.pdf
https://www.uhcprovider.com/content/dam ... herapy.pdf
Some reason I remember 3 tests...Oh...I remember now. Provider was rejecting all insurance unless they had the new 2 test standard. Insurance policy provides an exception for the old standard of 1 test but the provider didn't care. I had to go off TRT for a couple of months to retest. I got a new provider.
My estrogen is in normal ranges and I take 1 mg of anastrozole per week. I did start with half (0.5 mg) per week. What was your dosage? I also inject test twice weekly. That may make a difference. But I didn't have high estrogen when I was injecting once per week.Hardartery wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:59 pmAn AI would likely crush your estrogen to near zero at TRT doses (Ask me how I know) which is way, way worse than what already happened to you.
Thank you for sharing your experience. It could be I just tolerate anastrozole well.Hardartery wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 10:04 amSorry for the late response, I am out of town on Thursdays and Fridays and don't take the laptop with me. Because I'm generally involved with concrete until late every day and it's just not a setup conducive to getting online anyway. I have been BC/BS for a long time now, my "Residence" is technically SC, and Cigna and United are less than good options there for the times I am actually in the country. I did rather a lit if reading and research when I started, the bottle of testgel sat in a drawer waiting for me to decide what I actually wanted to do versus what the endo was offering. The gel sucks, and is not available most places where I spend the most time, so I ruled it out right away and then spent some time deciding if I really wanted to make the leap. Based on what I learned then, early 2018, I started on injections.
For readability I am making another paragraph. I started on a dose based off of bad advice and misunderstanding. 200 mg a week of cypionate (Actually enanthate the first two weeks). I blew up with water, and promptly took (More bad but well intentioned advice from someone) an anastrozole. I immediately pulled/strained/jacked up 3 separate muscles/tendons in two light gym sessions and felt like hell. I cut it to 1/4 pill, and went and got labs. My E2 was unreadable even at 1/4 pill. It ran slightly high with nothing but I bloated a lot. I rode it out and now it's fine. I still bloat a little if I'm in the US long enough to have to resort to the cypionate instead of sustanon but it's very minor now and probably not visible now that I have a beard. Most guys I know and have talked to - TRT and other doses for other reasons (I know a lot of guys who do or did use PED's) - have a similar reaction to anastrozole and really need to be running some monster doses to not utterly crush the E2. That's why most of them use Tamoxifen/nolvadex and not anastrozole. Anastrozole is a system wide suppression, tamoxifen only inhabits breast tissue so it's good for gyno issues and PCT. If you can run it and suffer no ill effects, have at it. Everyone else should be wary initially.
I have run 180 a week, 200 a week, 250 a week for two weeks, currently at 125 a week which is not "Optimized" on the labs but just above mid-range at trough - and feels better than the other levels. If I was just in it for performance and wanted to push the envelope I would run 250 a week and damn the torpedoes and then blast at 500 for stretches. But, I have a good idea what that would do to my numbers (RBC and hemoglobin in particular) and that isn't why I am on TRT to begin with. I really felt zero difference between 180 and 200, and feel only slightly better at 125 a week but it brings my blood work in line so nobody freaks out. I will say that different esters hit different, and 250 a week enanthate would quickly make me a large monster of a guy based on two weeks on it.aurelius wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 12:21 pmThank you for sharing your experience. It could be I just tolerate anastrozole well.Hardartery wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 10:04 amSorry for the late response, I am out of town on Thursdays and Fridays and don't take the laptop with me. Because I'm generally involved with concrete until late every day and it's just not a setup conducive to getting online anyway. I have been BC/BS for a long time now, my "Residence" is technically SC, and Cigna and United are less than good options there for the times I am actually in the country. I did rather a lit if reading and research when I started, the bottle of testgel sat in a drawer waiting for me to decide what I actually wanted to do versus what the endo was offering. The gel sucks, and is not available most places where I spend the most time, so I ruled it out right away and then spent some time deciding if I really wanted to make the leap. Based on what I learned then, early 2018, I started on injections.
For readability I am making another paragraph. I started on a dose based off of bad advice and misunderstanding. 200 mg a week of cypionate (Actually enanthate the first two weeks). I blew up with water, and promptly took (More bad but well intentioned advice from someone) an anastrozole. I immediately pulled/strained/jacked up 3 separate muscles/tendons in two light gym sessions and felt like hell. I cut it to 1/4 pill, and went and got labs. My E2 was unreadable even at 1/4 pill. It ran slightly high with nothing but I bloated a lot. I rode it out and now it's fine. I still bloat a little if I'm in the US long enough to have to resort to the cypionate instead of sustanon but it's very minor now and probably not visible now that I have a beard. Most guys I know and have talked to - TRT and other doses for other reasons (I know a lot of guys who do or did use PED's) - have a similar reaction to anastrozole and really need to be running some monster doses to not utterly crush the E2. That's why most of them use Tamoxifen/nolvadex and not anastrozole. Anastrozole is a system wide suppression, tamoxifen only inhabits breast tissue so it's good for gyno issues and PCT. If you can run it and suffer no ill effects, have at it. Everyone else should be wary initially.
I started TRT and pushed it up to 220 mg once a week based on bro advice but that was hot. I was agitated all the time. My provider caught it (I should have energy, not feel like I need to go 100 mph). Slowly brought it down to 180 but I would noticeably fade the last two days. Settled on 200 mg once per week which was slightly hot early in the cycle but I didn't fade. I'm injecting 100 mg twice per week now. I'm not getting that huge peak from 200 mg once per week but my test showed me at above 1000 total T (which would have been 3 days past my 2nd injection). Meaning I'm running above 1000 total T all the time now. I think I'm going to titrate down moving forward but the lesson I learned is small changes over a long period of time. Gonna try 95 mg twice weekly and see how I feel after 6-8 weeks.
Provider put my on a 90 and 100 mg injections twice a week versus 95 and 95. I will see how that feels after a 6-8 weeks. On the AI side I'm going to do 0.5 mg of anastrozole the day after each injection.Hardartery wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 12:49 pmI have run 180 a week, 200 a week, 250 a week for two weeks, currently at 125 a week which is not "Optimized" on the labs but just above mid-range at trough - and feels better than the other levels. If I was just in it for performance and wanted to push the envelope I would run 250 a week and damn the torpedoes and then blast at 500 for stretches. But, I have a good idea what that would do to my numbers (RBC and hemoglobin in particular) and that isn't why I am on TRT to begin with. I really felt zero difference between 180 and 200, and feel only slightly better at 125 a week but it brings my blood work in line so nobody freaks out. I will say that different esters hit different, and 250 a week enanthate would quickly make me a large monster of a guy based on two weeks on it.