Optimized Novice Program

[KarlM]

...In the case of stalling on Starting Strength linear progression, you are not "stealing" squat volume to increase your deadlift. In fact, you won't ever "steal" from one lift to make progress on another...

Currently I'm in week 5 of Andy Baker's GGW program, and without giving away the details I'm pulling a single heavy set on my medium squat day, and pulling three sets at a medium intensity on my heavy squat day, and the reps and intensities are waved week to week. So far its been fairly easy (worryingly so!). I've been lifting for about a year and am somewhat far away from the end of my SS LP, but like most do-it-yourself people, screwed up the transition to early intermediate pretty significantly with respect to my squat and deadlift. Bench and OHP went better, but that's another discussion. In summary, I'm a recovering ego lifter (it is painful to my ego to take weight off the bar).

I have recently been operating under the assumption that for SS in particular, which seems to emphasize the squat at the expense of the deadlift, there would need to be a re-shifting of total lower body volume to continue to drive the deadlift after the LP without increasing the volume so much that recovery was compromised, at least for older folks like myself (43). I tried to follow the "older lifters are volume sensitive and intensity dependent" advice from BB Rxn but wound up tweaking my snowflake back a total of 7 times (in one year), in part because I was lifting too heavy too often (technique issues were there too), which has obviously hampered my squat and deadlift progress. So I find it surprising the volumes you have your clients on so soon after the LP. Not saying I think its wrong (I don't have the experience to know), just surprised

[d0uevenlift]

Hello new forum, long time lurker on the other forum, then all the cool cats left...

So how do people generally transition when their deadlift LP is coming to an end? It seems that just adding more volume is a recipe for back tweaking. When the deadlift stalls, you need to increase volume, but you'll need to take that volume from squats, right? Or is it then time to swap out some of the low bar squatting with other less stressful variants?

KOTJ pretty much explained it. There's more than one way to skin this cat. KOTJ suggested adding back off sets after a top set, but I like having a second day to do the lower intensity volume stuff so you're not in the gym forever.

More volume is definitely not a recipe for back tweaks given the right intensity. The weight has to be low enough to make sets across manageable, but high enough that it's providing a meaningful stimulus. As an example, if your best deadlift for a set of 5 is 405, you can handle 320 for 3x5 and it'll be light enough to not wreck you, but heavy enough to make you stronger in the long term. Hope that makes sense.

Eventually, you need to add more volume to all your lifts. It's the only way you'll get stronger. There are a million ways to do this, but believe me when I say if it's done correctly, it won't hurt you. Much.

[cgeorg]

It emphasizes the squat at the expense of the deadlift because every day is heavy day for everything and you only have so much recovery. There's a lot more room for useful volume that doesn't come at the expense of other lifts once every day is not Heavy day for Everything. In reality, 3x5 3 times a week isn't a lot of volume for a lift - it does happen to be sufficient for novices for a while though.

GGW is a cool program, at week 5 you're just starting to get into the challenging part. The early weeks are a welcome deload from end-of-SSNLP, while also helping to get you accustomed to the extra volume you'll be putting in.

[GlasgowJock]

Currently I'm in week 5 of Andy Baker's GGW program

I've looked on both forums to no success and I can't PM you due to lack of privileges. Where's your log mate? I - loosely - run cycles of GGW as well & I like subbing to other HLM logs.

[cwd]

I tried to follow the "older lifters are volume sensitive and intensity dependent" advice from BB Rxn but wound up tweaking my snowflake back a total of 7 times (in one year), in part because I was lifting too heavy too often (technique issues were there too), which has obviously hampered my squat and deadlift progress.

51 here. I've come to understand the "volume sensitive, intensity dependent" idea as:
1) Intermediates need more volume, but with most sets at lower intensity vs SSLP.
2) Geezers are very slow to recover from injury and overtraining, so the extra volume must be added gradually, and deloads programmed frequently.
3) Deloads should reduce volume, not intensity.

[KarlM]

Currently I'm in week 5 of Andy Baker's GGW program

I've looked on both forums to no success and I can't PM you due to lack of privileges. Where's your log mate? I - loosely - run cycles of GGW as well & I like subbing to other HLM logs.

Funny you should ask; I'm planning on starting a log after today's session.

[KarlM]

51 here. I've come to understand the "volume sensitive, intensity dependent" idea as:
1) Intermediates need more volume, but with most sets at lower intensity vs SSLP.
2) Geezers are very slow to recover from injury and overtraining, so the extra volume must be added gradually, and deloads programmed frequently.
3) Deloads should reduce volume, not intensity.

Sounds about right to me!

[Bliss]

Okay, we've all seen the many ways a novice can screw up a simple program like SS. What if we have a good novice that can make really good progress and we can take it up a notch?

In that sense, the best Novice program I've seen out there is Izzy's PNP, but it is Powerlifting specific and I was thinking General Strength (without his buddy Corporal Punishment). So, I would go from there and "adapt" Izzy's PNP into a General Strength program like this:

Phase I
A/B
Squat 3x3-6 (@9)
Bench 3x3-6 / Press 3x3-6 (@9)
Deadlift 3x3-6 (@9)

Same weight progression as PNP. The real deal would be phase II and phase III, where I would do it more SSish:

Phase II

A/B
Squat 3x3-6 (@9)
Bench 2x3-6 + 2x6 with 80-90% / Press 2x3-6 + 2x6 with 80-90% (@9 - top sets)
Deadlift 3x3-6 / Chins 3x3-6 (@9)
.......

Phase III

Squat 3x3-6 (@9) (Light middle of the week - 2x5x80%)
Bench 2x3-6 + 2x6 with 80-90% / Press 2x3-6 + 2x6 with 80-90% (@9 - top sets)
Deadlift 3x3-6 / Chins 3x3-6 (@9) (you can deadlift once a week also, in the light squat day - it works too)

......


Critiques? Bashing? Schooling? All welcome.

P.S.: Someone call Izzy to these forums, please.

Revision control:
A) hsilman and allentown suggestions included. RPE clarificatioohn enhanced.

Great thread!!

Personally, i believe that for a true novice, so somebody who never stepped in a gym, or did dumb shit and never correctly touched a barbell, or someone who hasn't read and absorbed the correct literature and is a bit unsure of how everything comes together (ie the vast majority!), the standard SS it the best choice due to its simplicity and a lack of choice wrt what to do next.

This is probably the crucial part. Now, take what i say however seriously or unseriously you want, the standart program is not optimal for someone with experience coming back after a break (and believe me, "LP lifts back up" is my default mode of training lately lol), or someone who wants to get a bit more involved and has experience to actually get to this stage of wanting.

This is precisely what led me to (screw around with) try and do the PTW novice progression to regain lost strength and no, there's no way i were to repeat SS.
It has way too much squatting relative to pressing, so upper body sucks, and it has way too much squatting relative to DL, so....deadlifts suck eventually. It's probably best described as a beginner's squat-focused general strength program. (Yeah, try and ban me here....BAM!).

With this combined, I'm surprised you took the cool parts from the ptw program but retained the goofy ratios and sets prescription from SS.

I'd modify ptw very little, stick with:

In phase 1.

2 squat sets, 3 bench/press sets, 1 deadlift set.

In phase 2.

3 squat sets, 5 bench/press sets, 2 deadlift sets ALTERNATING with cleans if you like...or chins or rows.

Etc...

Scratch that, all that really means is alternating bench and press....
I'd put more emphasis on chins and treat them more like a main lift.


PS. Something i could not understand from ptw, and didn't find it written anywhere, is that it doesn't explain what to do if some lifts stall quicker than others - prescription given is simply to reset everything 20% and move to next stages, whereas SS leads itself quite well wrt transitioning programming of individual lifts at different times.

I think Tom Narvaez is on these forums, it would be great if he chimed in!